Cannot see how NDEs are so easily dismissed by many scientists or skeptics

[turzovka]

Reiterating my own skepticism, I just do not find the experts’ and the doubters’ explanations for Near Death Experiences to be the least bit credible. Even if they say these people had these fantastic “dreams” or visions while their brain was dead and without oxygen, how does it follow they also were above their body reporting on events they could never have seen if they were on the operating table? Does the dying brain also allow them to rise above their bodies and do things a lively brain could never do? None of it makes sense.

These two articles are both insightful. The second one speaks of near death experiences of Buddhists and others in Eastern relgions. Note the distinctions between what they experienced and what many Christians experienced. The conclusion here is that there is life after death, plain and simple. And strong evidence for who God is as well.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://www.skeptiko.com/eeg-expert-on-near-death-experience/

90. EEG Expert Can’t Explain Near Death Experience Data… and, Dr. Penny Sartori Finds More Than Hallucinations in NDE Accounts
January 4th, 2010

For near death experience skeptics, medical evidence of a flat EEG during an out of body experience has always been a stumbling block. After all, a brain dead patient can’t hallucinate. But, does a flat EEG really mean no brain activity? NDE doubters have claimed activity deep inside the brain, beyond the reach of EEG instruments, must account for the complex “realer than real” experiences reported by those who briefly pass into the afterlife. Now, University of Toledo Neuroscience researcher, and EEG expert, Dr. John Greenfield explains why this claim doesn’t hold up.

“It’s very unlikely that a hypoperfused brain [someone with no blood flow to the brain], with no evidence of electrical activity could generate NDEs. Human studies as well as animal studies have typically shown very little brain perfusion [blood flow] or glucose utilization when the EEG is flat. There are deep brain areas involved in generating memories that might still operate at some very reduced level during cardiac arrest, but of course any subcortically generated activity can’t be brought to consciousness without at least one functioning cerebral hemisphere. So even if there were some way that NDEs were generated during the hypoxic state [while the brain is shut off from oxygen], you would not experience them until reperfusion [blood flow] allowed you to dream them or wake up and talk about them”, Greenfield stated.

With near death experience cases making there way into the, New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of Psychiatry, and other major medical journals, NDE doubters have looked to the timing of patient memories as a way of explaining this unexplainable phenomena. If memories of out of body travel, and all embracing love occur after ones brush with death, NDEs may still fit within our medical science worldview.

The timing of NDE memories is the research question Dr. Penny Sartori sought to answer, “I worked in the intensive care unit and because of the nature of my job, of course, I’d come across a lot of death. And of course makes you wonder what happens when we die. For five years I gathered data, where I spoke to patients in the intensive care unit and particularly patients who’d had a cardiac arrest. When these patients revived, as soon as they were medically fit, I approached them and asked the simple question, ‘Did you have any memory of the time that you were unconscious?’”

“For the people who had a near-death experience and out of body experience [their recollection of resuscitation] was really quite accurate and I decided then to ask the control group, the people who’d had a cardiac arrest but had no recollection of anything at all. I asked them if they would reenact their resuscitation scenario and tell me what they thought that we had done to resuscitate them. And what I found is that many of the patients couldn’t even guess as to what we’d done. They had no idea at all. And then some of them did make guesses, but these were based on TV hospital dramas that they’d seen. I found that what they reported was widely inaccurate. So there was a stark contrast really in the very accurate out of body experiences reported and then the guesses that the control group had made.”, Dr. Sartori reported.

While research like this may never be enough to convince dogmatic skeptics, the medical evidence for near death experience continues to challenge us to reexamine our beliefs about what lies beyond death.


===========================================================

http://www.spiritdaily.com/Buddhistneardeath.htm

BACK FROM DEATH IN THE EAST

An amazing feature of near-death experiences is that they are much the same no matter the religion or culture.

In one study of 1,000 cases in India and America, researchers found that when Indians were close to death, they told of encountering messengers and religious figures, much the same as Americans report. One difference: residents of India did not report seeing deceased loved ones as much as did Americans.

Another difference: in places such as Thailand, those who crossed over to the other side did not experience eternity as quite as pleasant as have Westerners. In Buddhism, the person who has such an experience is called a "delog."

"There were both similarities and differences between Western and Thai near-death experiences," says a nurse named Dr. Penny Santori in a book called The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences. "The tunnel was absent in Thai near-death experiences, as were feelings of bliss and ecstasy. Thai near-death experiences were mainly distressing in nature and depicted scenes of hell and torture. The dying person was forced to observe the tortures but did not experience them. There was only one case of an encounter with Heaven [in ten studied]."

Of course, the main religious difference, between the two, by and large, is that Americans are predominately Christian; Thailand is chiefly Buddhist (not to besmirch Buddhism, but to report on the result of one study).

Some of it comes down to what is expected: The afterlife is presented initially in a way that the person in transition understands. This may account for why those in Eastern or Muslim countries sometimes report a meeting with famous Buddhist, Hindu, or Islamic figures.

In Tibet -- also largely Buddhist -- it is common for those who "die" to report that they were "taken to the Lord of Death and guided through hell, where they witness the torture of other sinful people. These people ask the person to convey messages to their families, asking them to perform rituals to absolve their suffering and urge others to live in a moralistic way." This sounds a bit like praying for the deceased in purgatory.

Another author, Nancy Bush, whose equally and perhaps even more fascinating book, Dancing Past the Dark, Distressing Near-Death Experiences, notes that, "One delog account from the 17th-century included descriptions of terrifying divinities of yellow, red, and green, a bridge over an ocean of fire, and tied-up victims being beaten for having eaten meat. Then she was taken to meet Yama, the terrible Lord of Death.

“Protected by her personal divinity, she entered his palace and trembled as she saw his ugly, red face, wide-eyed and fanged. Wearing a tiger skin, skulls, and flames, he held the fateful mirror of existence, a sword, and water. His frightening voice rumbled like a thousand dragons.

"He was attended by numerous ugly, animal-headed acolytes and a nasty, little, black demon holding black pebbles signifying the sinful deeds of each poor person to be judged. But a white deity held white pebbles that would weigh against the black deeds. This vast army of beasts was chanting 'execute! execute!' or whacking off the heads of the weeping victims.

“In typical accounts of delogs, as young persons they have been gravely ill and seem to be dead to those grieving around them. But instead, they later report, they had risen up above their bodies, which then they did not recognize as their own. Next these persons’ dazed souls enter into a raucous hereafter, guided by their personal deity. They are taken to meet the horrifying Lord of Death himself.

"They are led on a shocking tour of Hell, where they see numerous condemned souls miserably suffering punishments befitting their sins, such as the [Buddhist] nun who hears the unending cries of her own baby whom she murdered. The anguished sinners send urgent messages back to the living, begging family to do rituals to aid in their salvation and exhorting others to live an ethical life. The astonished travelers meet deceased parents and travel to paradise.

"Returning to the throne of the Lord of Death, they observe the dreadful judgment of souls with a bridge, a scale, or a mirror. They themselves are judged and given a message to send back. Their consciousnesses return to their bodies on earth. They deliver the various messages and exhort all to practice their Tibetan Buddhist religion faithfully."

Makes you think!

In China, a survey of 120 deathbed visions showed -- again -- similarities and differences.

In one account a Buddhist monk had a pleasant encounter whereby Buddha placed him in the palm of his hand and the light spread throughout the universe. Most interesting: a century ago a Confucian scholar who'd had just two lessons on the Christian faith "reported walking with Jesus to gates of pearl which were opened by angels that let them in," writes Santori. "She saw beautifully colored houses and walked with Jesus along golden streets. She saw thousands of angels encircling a throne on which the heavenly Father sat and He told her that she may go back for a while but must return on the twelfth of the month. A few days passed and on the twelfth of the month she dressed in her funeral clothes, lay down on the bed, and died." When Jesus is missing, it is precarious (to use understatement).

In Japan, many accounts include the upside of a temple gate and pleasant feelings; beautiful flowers are a prominent feature.

Some are sent back by relatives, as in so many Western accounts.

One researcher who interviewed seventeen patients found that nine had no memories, but eight who "died and returned" recalled rivers or ponds; of those eight, five were unpleasant. In one case a man who had been pronounced dead and sent to the mortuary, where he later came to, described a journey to his new house that was still in the process of construction. His account is similar to the one in China.

"He was told to go back and that it would be ready for him in a month's time," writes Bush.

"He died a month after he had revived."

[resources: Dancing Past the Dark, Distressing Near-Death Experiences and afterlife books]

 

[defcon4]

Very deep subject…. those who really know will not talk.

 

[HaShev]

You guys always miss the underlining issues and never look at other angles to the subjects you discuss.
Not to be insulting, but thus is why you are called blind.
This experience afterlife which was proven in labs to be the result lack of oxygen in the brain, would still require a processor and processes (everything has a process).
There still needs to be a place, a beginning, a secrrt you've yet to figure oyt yet are in a rush to claim existed in beginning of all time and in the clouds and exists in death. This is called the death cult of hades teachings and Egyptian underworld beliefs opposite the Judaic belief of world to come in resurrection back into life
not expressed in death. That big difference is why the world has so many death worshipers murders and wars
all for that ignorant teaching that paradise sits in death, Ezekiel warns the false soul flying life ideology.
Psalms and elsewhere says no more rememberance or thoughts in death.
Common reasoning, science, computer technology teaches us that memory and thought processes and the conveying energy all requires a processor.
Our processor brain and vessel body once gone is liken to the computer hardrive and motherboard burning out.
There's no more thought, memory untill you place that back in a new fresh vessel.
The Judaic teaching of Resurrection is to be able to see and be rewarded for what your good deeds brought a more perfected (paradise) in life, not in death.
Therefore the Bible in Isaiah and plagiarised in NT says the beginning is at the end (heaven comes at the end of linear time and imperfect world, God takes the chaos and creates and "restores" order to bring the begining of the perfected world where illnesses are eradicated, includibg death being defeated. Therefore the beginning seems to exist at all time being non linear but actually starts at the end. The head of host sits at the end not the beginning and until you grasp that you will forever be confused in your belief and teachings.

 

[aris2chat]

We perceive dreams as real while we are sleeping.
It is residual brain activity while near death or during.
Modern medicine has prevented us from accepting or allowing natural death. Muscles in animals and humans continue to react after death, so too our brains have residual responses and when forced back from death the memory seems real. It is like capacitors releasing stored energy as we die.
There is not profound spirituality experience, only an artificial scientific one when we are jerked back to life.

 

[Steven_R]

Anecdotal evidence is the least reliable. If it can't be observed and quantified, it's nearly impossible for scientists to use.

 

[OZman]

Even if they say these people had these fantastic “dreams” or visions while their brain was dead and without oxygen, how does it follow they also were above their body reporting on events they could never have seen if they were on the operating table? Does the dying brain also allow them to rise above their bodies and do things a lively brain could never do? None of it makes sense.

You do not have to be dying to have an OOBE experience, so the "no oxygen" theory is invalid.

 

[HaShev]

The same people who claim they can see without their vessel eyeballs, hear without their vessel ears, feel without their body are the same people when blindfolded can't see, given ear plugs and noise cancelation head sets can't hear, andgiven oven mits can't feel.
Seems like without your vessel and processor Psalms was right.

 

[aris2chat]

Even if they say these people had these fantastic “dreams” or visions while their brain was dead and without oxygen, how does it follow they also were above their body reporting on events they could never have seen if they were on the operating table? Does the dying brain also allow them to rise above their bodies and do things a lively brain could never do? None of it makes sense.

You do not have to be dying to have an OOBE experience, so the "no oxygen" theory is invalid.

Very low breathing and heart rate can create a state where one might feel so lite and without sensation that they think they are elsewhere than in the body. It is a type of sensory deprivation.
I've had and it scared me and the yoga instructor for different reasons. Never wanted to go that deep into relaxation or meditation after than. I turned a few too many senses off. It was very odd, but hardly spiritual or pleasant. No bright light, no peaceful feeling, no seeing my own body. It was more of seeing something that either was happening or would happen within a short time, but that I would not actually find out about till later. Creating expectation and images from the last thoughts stuck in my mind.
I've also had dreams about future or current events that left me physically bruised as if it had actually happened to me, half a world away. Details I would not find out about for many months. Logical anxieties and what ifs that eventually did happen. A bit like writing science fiction and later things similar come about.
I've also died and been brought back with no memory or experience.
We see and processes things the way we want when the brain and body are sensory deprived. I expect it has more to do with our person fears than with any reality. Just part of our shut down system.

 

[aris2chat]

The same people who claim they can see without their vessel eyeballs, hear without their vessel ears, feel without their body are the same people when blindfolded can't see, given ear plugs and noise cancelation head sets can't hear, andgiven oven mits can't feel.
Seems like without your vessel and processor Psalms was right.

We all know the mind can play 'tricks' on us while awake, the mind can fracture from our reality even, so why is it some 'miracle' for it to do so in the last seconds as you die?
Anyone that has suffered from or seen others go through PTSD, mental illness, bad reaction to certain drugs/medicines or even depression will understand this.

 

[HaShev]

Another issue with OBE is the assumption that proves After life. In all cases of OBE they needed to rejoin their processor and process what they viewed.=failed argument for life outside this vessel and it's processor called the brain. OBE can be mind tricks, dissociative disorder, selective recognition, but can also be not so far fetched in the way we see resemblances of this in Computers and telecommunications.
However, there's still a process it's done, and a physical processor and like I explained is a poor argument as it's not proof of a spirit world. People hate this creator and creation
so much that they create realms outside our creation of life and are willing to be in opposition (sawtawn to) this gift and blessing of life.
This is how you can spot true satanist, those in the reflection of that false death worship- paradise in death.

 

[turzovka]

Anecdotal evidence is the least reliable. If it can't be observed and quantified, it's nearly impossible for scientists to use.

The same people who claim they can see without their vessel eyeballs, hear without their vessel ears, feel without their body are the same people when blindfolded can't see, given ear plugs and noise cancelation head sets can't hear, and given oven mits can't feel.

We see and processes things the way we want when the brain and body are sensory deprived. I expect it has more to do with our person fears than with any reality. Just part of our shut down system.

Shame on me for thinking some doctors’ opinions might carry some weight. Especially those who have researched the field for years in great detail and published books on their countless accounts of NDEs that they personally witnessed.

So when someone here comes back and says “anecdote is the least reliable...” that tells me they are not all that interested, really, or perhaps they might not want to be proven wrong. Really? Is everybody a liar? Or is everybody just a fantastic dying brain that allows them to see above their bodies and see in other rooms and tell what happened where even if they were conscious they could not have witnessed such? And then relate “heavenly visits” where they speak to relatives they never knew, others they did know, or are escorted by angels or even an encounter with the Lord. When you add up the hundreds, even thousands, of well-documented out of body experiences when the person lay dead or totally brain dead, none of this seems the least bit plausible. But no one wants to accept it is God giving us some insight to bolster the faith of the believer, or to challenge the doubter.

The famous case from a few years ago could stand on its own. Dr. Eban Alexander, a Harvard neurosurgeon who was an unbeliever until he was taken himself in 2008. The doctor knows more about the brain, etc. than just about anybody. Still it could not be God, could it? Eben Alexander Harvard Neurosurgeon Describes Heaven After Near-Death Experience VIDEO

Or Colton Burpo, who in 2003 the 4 year old boy alleges to have met Jesus, God, his great-grandfather, whom he had never met, and his older sister, who was lost in a miscarriage but nobody had told him about until he asked his mother about her months after his return from beyond. Colton Burpo NDE NDE Stories

Or the atheist professor from Kentucky, Howard Storm, who in 1985 was pronounced dead and had a most unpleasant visit to hell? Reverend Howard Storm s Near-Death Experience

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I guess I cannot win because… well I am not sure why there is so much resistance? But I leave you with the famous account of another atheist who was killed by the KGB.

Dr. George Rodonaia held an M.D. and a Ph.D. in neuropathology in the Soviet Union. Was run over on the street by a KGB agent in 1976 and pronounced dead. He lie in a morgue for more three days until the knife opening him up during an autopsy awakened him. Dr. Rodonaia had much to say to the world before he passed away in 2004. At the end of this story is a small anecdote that virtually proves what he experienced had to be true.

This account appears to be very well documented and attested to. To suggest it did not happen demands greater veracity than just general skepticism in the line of “yes, we’ve heard it all before.” Those who are not Christian may derive greater hope from this man’s account than some of those who are devout Christians. It does not bother me at all that this man who was an avowed atheist and surely witnessed God’s glory does not ascribe to any religion’s concise “god” – per se – including the Christian one, because his experiences are so much more universal affecting all creatures and manners of life. Yes, he eventually became a Methodist minister, but his message is about the very real presence of another world, one totally inhabited by the glory of God. For him, that realization and the realization that all God asks of us is to love is profoundly illustrated in this man’s account.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Some People Were Dead For Several Days

Reverend George Rodonaia (died October 12, 2004) underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet after the experience, he devoted himself exclusively to the study of spirituality, taking a second doctorate in the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. He served as a pastor at St. Paul United Methodist Church in Baytown, Texas. Reverend Rodonaia is one of the NDE experiencers profiled on this page who was dead for days during his NDE.

Rev. George Rodonaia held an M.D. and a Ph.D. in neuropathology, and a Ph.D. in the psychology of religion. He delivered a keynote address to the United Nations on the "Emerging Global Spirituality." Before emigrating to the United States from the Soviet Union in 1989, he worked as a research psychiatrist at the University of Moscow. The following is a Dr. Rodonaia's experience in his own words from Phillip Berman's excellent book, “The Journey Home.”

"The first thing I remember about my NDE is that I discovered myself in a realm of total darkness. I had no physical pain, I was still somehow aware of my existence as George, and all about me there was darkness, utter and complete darkness - the greatest darkness ever, darker than any dark, blacker than any black. This was what surrounded me and pressed upon me. I was horrified. I wasn't prepared for this at all. I was shocked to find that I still existed, but I didn't know where I was. The one thought that kept rolling through my mind was, "How can I be when I'm not?" That is what troubled me.

"Slowly I got a grip on myself and began to think about what had happened, what was going on. But nothing refreshing or relaxing came to me. Why am I in this darkness? What am I to do? Then I remembered Descartes' famous line: "I think, therefore I am." And that took a huge burden off me, for it was then I knew for certain I was still alive, although obviously in a very different dimension. Then I thought, If I am, why shouldn't I be positive? That is what came to me. I am George and I'm in darkness, but I know I am. I am what I am. I must not be negative.

"Then I thought, How can I define what is positive in darkness? Well, positive is light. Then, suddenly, I was in light; bright white, shiny and strong; a very bright light. I was like the flash of a camera, but not flickering - that bright. Constant brightness. At first I found the brilliance of the light painful, I couldn't look directly at it. But little by little I began to relax. I began to feel warm, comforted, and everything suddenly seemed fine.

"The next thing that happened was that I saw all these molecules flying around, atoms, protons, neutrons, just flying everywhere. On the one hand, it was totally chaotic, yet what brought me such great joy was that this chaos also had its own symmetry. This symmetry was beautiful and unified and whole, and it flooded me with tremendous joy. I saw the universal form of life and nature laid out before my eyes. It was at this point that any concern I had for my body just slipped away, because it was clear to me that I didn't need it anymore, that it was actually a limitation.

"Everything in this experience merged together, so it is difficult for me to put an exact sequence to events. Time as I had known it came to a halt; past, present, and future were somehow fused together for me in the timeless unity of life.

"At some point I underwent what has been called the life-review process, for I saw my life from beginning to end all at once. I participated in the real life dramas of my life, almost like a holographic image of my life going on before me - no sense of past, present, or future, just now and the reality of my life. It wasn't as though it started with birth and ran along to my life at the University of Moscow. It all appeared at once. There I was. This was my life. I didn't experience any sense of guilt or remorse for things I'd done. I didn't feel one way or another about my failures, faults, or achievements. All I felt was my life for what it is. And I was content with that. I accepted my life for what it is.

"During this time the light just radiated a sense of peace and joy to me. It was very positive. I was so happy to be in the light. And I understood what the light meant. I learned that all the physical rules for human life were nothing when compared to this unitive reality. I also came to see that a black hole is only another part of that infinity which is light.

"I came to see that reality is everywhere. That it is not simply the earthly life but the infinite life. Everything is not only connected together, everything is also one. So I felt a wholeness with the light, a sense that all is right with me and the universe.

"I could be anywhere instantly, really there. I tried to communicate with the people I saw. Some sensed my presence, but no one did anything about it. I felt it necessary to learn about the Bible and philosophy. You want, you receive. Think and it comes to you. So I participated, I went back and lived in the minds of Jesus and his disciples. I heard their conversations, experienced eating, passing wine, smells, tastes - yet I had no body. I was pure consciousness. If I didn't understand what was happening, an explanation would come. But no teacher spoke. I explored the Roman Empire, Babylon, the times of Noah and Abraham. Any era you can name, I went there.

"So there I was, flooded with all these good things and this wonderful experience, when someone begins to cut into my stomach. Can you imagine? What had happened was that I was taken to the morgue. I was pronounced dead and left there for three days. An investigation into the cause of my death was set up, so they sent someone out to do an autopsy on me. As they began to cut into my stomach, I felt as though some great power took hold of my neck and pushed me down. And it was so powerful that I opened my eyes and had this huge sense of pain. My body was cold and I began to shiver. They immediately stopped the autopsy and took me to the hospital, where I remained for the following nine months, most of which I spent under a respirator.

"Slowly I regained my health. But I would never be the same again, because all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was study wisdom. This new interest led me to attend the University of Georgia, where I took my second Ph.D., in the psychology of religion. Then I became a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Eventually, in 1989, we came to America, and I am now working as an associate pastor at the First United Methodist Church in Nederland, Texas.

"Many people have asked me what I believe in, how my NDE changed my life. All I can say is that I now believe in the God of the universe. Unlike many other people, however, I have never called God the light, because God is beyond our comprehension. God, I believe, is even more than the light, because God is also darkness. God is everything that exists, everything - and that is beyond our ability to comprehend at all. So I don't believe in the God of the Jews, or the Christians, or the Hindus, or in any one religion's idea of what God is or is not. It is all the same God, and that God showed me that the universe in which we live is a beautiful and marvelous mystery that is connected together forever and for always.

"Anyone who has had such an experience of God, who has felt such a profound sense of connection with reality, knows that there is only one truly significant work to do in life, and that is love; to love nature, to love people, to love animals, to love creation itself, just because it is. To serve God's creation with a warm and loving hand of generosity and compassion - that is the only meaningful existence.

"Many people turn to those who have had NDEs because they sense we have the answers. But I know this is not true, at least not entirely. None of us will fully fathom the great truths of life until we finally unite with eternity at death. But occasionally we get glimpses of the answer here on Earth, and that alone is enough for me. I love to ask questions and to seek answers, but I know in the end I must live the questions and the answers. But that is okay, isn't it? So long as we love, love with all our heart and passion, it doesn't matter, does it? Perhaps the best way for me to convey what I am trying to say is to share with you something the poet Rilke once wrote in a letter to a friend. I saw this letter, the original handwritten letter, in the library at Dresden University in Germany. (He quotes from memory, as follows

"Be patient with all that is unresolved in your heart. And try to love the questions themselves. Do not seek for the answers that cannot be given. For you wouldn't be able to live with them. And the point is to live everything, live the questions now, and perhaps without knowing it, you will live along some day into the answers."

"I place my faith in that. Live the questions, and the universe will open up its eyes to you."


2. George Rodonaia's Verified Out-of-Body Perception of an Injured Infant

More information about George's NDE account is described in Dr. Melvin Morse and Paul Perry's book entitled Transformed by the Light. Dr. Morse refers to George by his Russian name "Yuri". The following is an excerpt of Transformed by the Light which describes George's observation of an infant while George is out of his body.

"[During Yuri's NDE, he] could go visit his family. He saw his grieving wife and their two sons, both too small to understand that their father had been killed.

"Then he visited his next-door neighbor. They had a new child, born a couple of days before Yuri's "death." Yuri could tell that they were upset by what happened to him. But they were especially distressed by the fact that their child would not stop crying.

"No matter what they did he continued to cry. When he slept it was short and fitful and then he would awaken, crying again. They had taken him back to the doctors but they were stumped. All the usual things such as colic were ruled out and they sent them home hoping the baby would eventually settle down.

"While there in this disembodied state, Yuri discovered something:

"l could talk to the baby. It was amazing. I could not talk to the parents - my friends - but I could talk to the little boy who had just been born. I asked him what was wrong. No words were exchanged, but I asked him maybe through telepathy what was wrong. He told me that his arm hurt. And when he told me that, I was able to see that the bone was twisted and broken."

"The baby had a greenstick fracture, a break in the bone in his arm probably cause by having been twisted during childbirth. Now Yuri and the baby knew what was wrong, but neither had the ability to communicate the problem to the parents.

"Eventually the doctor from Moscow came to perform the autopsy on Yuri. When they moved his body from the cabinet to a gurney, his eyes flickered. The doctor became suspicious and examined his eyes. When they responded to light, he was immediately wheeled to emergency surgery and saved.

"Yuri told his family about being "dead." No one believed him until he began to provide details about what he saw during his travels out of body. Then they became less skeptical. His diagnosis on the baby next door did the trick. He told of visiting them that night and of their concern over their new child. He told them that he had talked to the baby and discovered that he had a greenstick fracture of his arm. The parents took the child to a doctor and he x-rayed the arm only to discover that Yuri's very long-distance diagnosis was right."


]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

 

[HaShev]

Once again, even those dead for days have to recollect using the processor brain for it's total recall.=failed argument.
All you did was prove to everyone how coming back to life is a common occurance not worthy of making these people gods or venerating them.
Even a dog named Dosha rose from the dead, and unlike Jesus, Dosha fulfills the "Mandatory" prerequisite that his name must be in the MikDosh.

 

[turzovka]

Once again, even those dead for days have to recollect using the processor brain for it's total recall.=failed argument.
All you did was prove to everyone how coming back to life is a common occurance not worthy of making these people gods or venerating them.
Even a dog named Dosha rose from the dead, and unlike Jesus, Dosha fulfills the "Mandatory" prerequisite that his name must be in the MikDosh.

For your theory to have any credibility whatsoever, the first premise that must be true is that all these people are liars. Not just the one who experienced the NDE but all the doctors and other witnesses during and after the episode are supporting his or her claims with lies of their own. Illogical to the extreme.

What is the upside for a lifelong atheist all of a sudden being certain God exists? What is it about a 4 year old child picking out a grandfather he never knew out of a lineup, and telling his mother of the sister he met in heaven who died in his mother’s womb? How would he possibly concoct something so fantastic as that? And now the Christian parents would live this insane lie and not worry about their very souls in that state? How can patients (many of them) speak of items or people in adjacent rooms while they were virtually dead on a table? Everyone who testified to that miraculous account were in on the lie? And how does a dead brain allow a person to leave their body and look above the room and describe later all that occurred from that vantage point?

The list of inexplicable is endless. The documented cases are endless.

 

[HaShev]

Mistaken does not equate lying.
Your connection of the dots are wrong because you are mistaken (through assumptions), but we don't see you as lying.
Try spending your time on the how what & whys of the processes and stop just assuming.

 

[aris2chat]

Another issue with OBE is the assumption that proves After life. In all cases of OBE they needed to rejoin their processor and process what they viewed.=failed argument for life outside this vessel and it's processor called the brain. OBE can be mind tricks, dissociative disorder, selective recognition, but can also be not so far fetched in the way we see resemblances of this in Computers and telecommunications.
However, there's still a process it's done, and a physical processor and like I explained is a poor argument as it's not proof of a spirit world. People hate this creator and creation
so much that they create realms outside our creation of life and are willing to be in opposition (sawtawn to) this gift and blessing of life.
This is how you can spot true satanist, those in the reflection of that false death worship- paradise in death.

>>we see resemblances of this in Computers and telecommunications.<<

makes sense, like a few fragments or words plugged into an internet search and coming up with conflicted and disassociated information and sites. The mind trying to reboot. It fill in the blanks to complete a picaso like picture rather than a photograph.

 

[turzovka]

Mistaken does not equate lying.
Your connection of the dots are wrong because you are mistaken (through assumptions), but we don't see you as lying.
Try spending your time on the how what & whys of the processes and stop just assuming.

This is sad. You appear to be in search of your next alibi. Doctors and atheists and disconnected medical staff are not all "mistaken" when reporting on what a patient said and what they observed. ad infinitum! Either what they say is the truth or they are all lying.

 

[aris2chat]

Once again, even those dead for days have to recollect using the processor brain for it's total recall.=failed argument.
All you did was prove to everyone how coming back to life is a common occurance not worthy of making these people gods or venerating them.
Even a dog named Dosha rose from the dead, and unlike Jesus, Dosha fulfills the "Mandatory" prerequisite that his name must be in the MikDosh.

For your theory to have any credibility whatsoever, the first premise that must be true is that all these people are liars. Not just the one who experienced the NDE but all the doctors and other witnesses during and after the episode are supporting his or her claims with lies of their own. Illogical to the extreme.

What is the upside for a lifelong atheist all of a sudden being certain God exists? What is it about a 4 year old child picking out a grandfather he never knew out of a lineup, and telling his mother of the sister he met in heaven who died in his mother’s womb? How would he possibly concoct something so fantastic as that? And now the Christian parents would live this insane lie and not worry about their very souls in that state? How can patients (many of them) speak of items or people in adjacent rooms while they were virtually dead on a table? Everyone who testified to that miraculous account were in on the lie? And how does a dead brain allow a person to leave their body and look above the room and describe later all that occurred from that vantage point?

The list of inexplicable is endless. The documented cases are endless.

........not fully explicable yet. As knowledge grows, so we hope will our understanding of the unknown. Even the universe is finite, it just appears endless to those who do not know or understand it.

 

[G.T.]

Ndes are bullshit

 

[turzovka]

Once again, even those dead for days have to recollect using the processor brain for it's total recall.=failed argument.
All you did was prove to everyone how coming back to life is a common occurance not worthy of making these people gods or venerating them.
Even a dog named Dosha rose from the dead, and unlike Jesus, Dosha fulfills the "Mandatory" prerequisite that his name must be in the MikDosh.

For your theory to have any credibility whatsoever, the first premise that must be true is that all these people are liars. Not just the one who experienced the NDE but all the doctors and other witnesses during and after the episode are supporting his or her claims with lies of their own. Illogical to the extreme.

What is the upside for a lifelong atheist all of a sudden being certain God exists? What is it about a 4 year old child picking out a grandfather he never knew out of a lineup, and telling his mother of the sister he met in heaven who died in his mother’s womb? How would he possibly concoct something so fantastic as that? And now the Christian parents would live this insane lie and not worry about their very souls in that state? How can patients (many of them) speak of items or people in adjacent rooms while they were virtually dead on a table? Everyone who testified to that miraculous account were in on the lie? And how does a dead brain allow a person to leave their body and look above the room and describe later all that occurred from that vantage point?

The list of inexplicable is endless. The documented cases are endless.

........not fully explicable yet. As knowledge grows, so we hope will our understanding of the unknown. Even the universe is finite, it just appears endless to those who do not know or understand it.

Except NDEs do not stand on their own. The preponderance of empirical evidence for God is legion. Miracles abound, supported by reason and historical evidence for the Savior. NDEs are just another way of God giving us a glimpse of heaven and the nether world. Most believers are convinced of God through many other ways that have nothing to do with this. It is the skeptic who keeps trying to isolate every account and present his opposition, which all too often sounds implausible all on its own, nearly always. Including how they dismiss weeping statues because they can point to one or two hoaxes. Again, they have to attest everyone else is lying, or “mistaken” as another here suggests.

 

[aris2chat]

Once again, even those dead for days have to recollect using the processor brain for it's total recall.=failed argument.
All you did was prove to everyone how coming back to life is a common occurance not worthy of making these people gods or venerating them.
Even a dog named Dosha rose from the dead, and unlike Jesus, Dosha fulfills the "Mandatory" prerequisite that his name must be in the MikDosh.

For your theory to have any credibility whatsoever, the first premise that must be true is that all these people are liars. Not just the one who experienced the NDE but all the doctors and other witnesses during and after the episode are supporting his or her claims with lies of their own. Illogical to the extreme.

What is the upside for a lifelong atheist all of a sudden being certain God exists? What is it about a 4 year old child picking out a grandfather he never knew out of a lineup, and telling his mother of the sister he met in heaven who died in his mother’s womb? How would he possibly concoct something so fantastic as that? And now the Christian parents would live this insane lie and not worry about their very souls in that state? How can patients (many of them) speak of items or people in adjacent rooms while they were virtually dead on a table? Everyone who testified to that miraculous account were in on the lie? And how does a dead brain allow a person to leave their body and look above the room and describe later all that occurred from that vantage point?

The list of inexplicable is endless. The documented cases are endless.

........not fully explicable yet. As knowledge grows, so we hope will our understanding of the unknown. Even the universe is finite, it just appears endless to those who do not know or understand it.

Except NDEs do not stand on their own. The preponderance of empirical evidence for God is legion. Miracles abound, supported by reason and historical evidence for the Savior. NDEs are just another way of God giving us a glimpse of heaven and the nether world. Most believers are convinced of God through many other ways that have nothing to do with this. It is the skeptic who keeps trying to isolate every account and present his opposition, which all too often sounds implausible all on its own, nearly always. Including how they dismiss weeping statues because they can point to one or two hoaxes. Again, they have to attest everyone else is lying, or “mistaken” as another here suggests.

No evidence but hearsay, anecdotal, myth, imagination.
99% of things the ancients could not explain we now understand through study and science. In the years and centuries to come those things that seem miraculous or unknown we might also find answers for. The use of god is a filler for understanding. As we explain what might have seemed miraculous at one time in life, it no long is the random will of god. Natural disasters have reason, not the whim or punishment of god. We might even be able to predict such events because of science and discovery. We can see patterns in storms and issue warnings, they are not the acts of an angry god, they have nothing to do with sinners or saints.

God is a word for 'not yet understood' or 'too complex to explain'. God is a way to control people rather than educate them.