Zone1 Justice vs Mercy

[Meriweather]

A recent homily was centered on The Justice We Deserve or The Mercy We Need.

Today the Catholic Church celebrates Divine Mercy. St. Maria Faustina noted God will not deny his mercy to anyone, and God's mercy will never be exhausted.

Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Höss was the commandant of the Auschwitz death camp, where over three million lost their lives. Höss was commented that he only killed about 2.5 million; the others died from sickness or starvation (under his watch).

Long story short: Before his death he had a change of heart about what he had done. He had been raised Catholic. He asked a Catholic priest to hear his confession and he was absolved of his sins. He received communion prior to his death. He had been sentenced to hang.

What say you in this case: Should justice outweigh mercy?

 

[alang1216]

What say you in this case: Should justice outweigh mercy?

Both are important but in the USA, I'd say generally yes if you're a Republican, no if you're a Democrat. I'm on the Dem side of this one.

 

[Grumblenuts]

What do you mean by "justice" and "mercy" in such a case?
Seems you've decided the Catholic priest hearing his confession, absolving him of his sins, and providing him communion prior to his death wasn't merciful.

 

[rampart]

A recent homily was centered on The Justice We Deserve or The Mercy We Need.

Today the Catholic Church celebrates Divine Mercy. St. Maria Faustina noted God will not deny his mercy to anyone, and God's mercy will never be exhausted.

Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Höss was the commandant of the Auschwitz death camp, where over three million lost their lives. Höss was commented that he only killed about 2.5 million; the others died from sickness or starvation (under his watch).

Long story short: Before his death he had a change of heart about what he had done. He had been raised Catholic. He asked a Catholic priest to hear his confession and he was absolved of his sins. He received communion prior to his death. He had been sentenced to hang.

What say you in this case: Should justice outweigh mercy?

both man's justice and divine mercy seem appropriate.

 

[buttercup]

Everyone wants justice for others (especially for people who have wronged them) and mercy for themselves.

It's kinda crazy how universal that is. Of course God is both just and merciful.

 

[Meriweather]

What do you mean by "justice" and "mercy" in such a case?
Seems you've decided the Catholic priest hearing his confession, absolving him of his sins, and providing him communion prior to his death wasn't merciful.

I decided no such thing. The discussion isn't about me.

The discussion is God's mercy, that it reaches someone who killed over 2.5 million people. God's justice is equally as powerful.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I decided no such thing. The discussion isn't about me.

The discussion is God's mercy, that it reaches someone who killed over 2.5 million people. God's justice is equally as powerful.

Forget it. You're hopeless.

 

[Meriweather]

both man's justice and divine mercy seem appropriate.

I tend to agree. The only thing man can do is to uphold justice, because I can't think of a thing man can do to make restitution or bring solace to the victims and the families of those who were slain. God can. Perhaps not in this life, but in the afterlife.

 

[Meriweather]

Forget it. You're hopeless.

Once again: The discussion isn't about me. It is about justice and mercy.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Once again: The discussion isn't about me. It is about justice and mercy.

You posted the topic and can't be bothered to clarify what you meant by your vague usage of words..

Once again: Forget it.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course God is both just and merciful.

It's been said that God's justice is intrinsic in the way that putting one's hand on the stove results in an immediate burn. On the other hand, mankind's justice is meted out by someone, like a judge, outside of the actual action.

 

[Meriweather]

You posted the topic and can't be bothered to clarify what you meant by your vague usage of words..

Three "You's" in one sentence.

Mercy: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. (Oxford dictionary)

Justice: Justice is the ethical, philosophical idea that people are to be treated impartially, fairly, properly, and reasonably by the law and by arbiters of the law, that laws are to ensure that no harm befalls another, and that, where harm is alleged, a remedial action is taken - both the accuser and the accused receive a morally right consequence merited by their actions. (Cornell Law School)

 

[BreezeWood]

Long story short: Before his death he had a change of heart about what he had done. He had been raised Catholic. He asked a Catholic priest to hear his confession and he was absolved of his sins. He received communion prior to his death. He had been sentenced to hang.

once again the desert acts w/ impunity - for their crimes against the heavens ...

not to mention the phony commandment against murder - a sin, taking of another life as murder can not be remedied to give the life back once taken. they are doomed.

in short, the o p proves again having gone off the deep end entrusting their christian bible.

 

[onefour1]

I don't believe priests have the authority to absolve sin. Only Jesus has that authority! No priest has ever atoned for any other person's sins. The forgiveness of the man's sins would be between him and God.

 

[buttercup]

It's been said that God's justice is intrinsic in the way that putting one's hand on the stove results in an immediate burn. On the other hand, mankind's justice is meted out by someone, like a judge, outside of the actual action.

God's justice is not always immediate, though. But maybe that's not what you meant?

Coincidentally, I was just thinking about the topic of justice earlier today. I was thinking that when people do wrong, there are both natural consequences that, as you put it, are intrinsic to an action (e.g: a habit of drunkenness results in messing up one's health, killing brain cells, hurting others. Adultery results in broken trust, often divorce, etc.) ...and then there's the long-term consequences that happen much later, when we stand before the judgement of God. Which of course is why everyone needs salvation/forgiveness long before it gets to that point.

Like I said earlier, when push comes to shove, everyone wants mercy for themselves, but justice for others. The parable of the unforgiving servant is a perfect example of that.

(anyway, I know this is sort of off topic, but I think the topic of justice / mercy is a good one.)

 

[Meriweather]

I don't believe priests have the authority to absolve sin. Only Jesus has that authority! No priest has ever atoned for any other person's sins. The forgiveness of the man's sins would be between him and God.

After his resurrection, Jesus appeared to the Apostles, breathed upon them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." (From the Gospel of John, chapter 20).

But setting aside our possible difference about apostleship/priesthood, thinking of Jesus' mercy extending beyond the murders of three million people leaves me speechless. On the other hand, before he died, Höss noted that at the time it never occurred to him to question the authority of those who gave him his orders. Before he died he wrote a letter to his eldest son pushing him to question the orders those in authority gave him. Höss did seem to have a legitimate change of heart. But three million people.... Jesus' mercy is that bountiful, and no one should doubt this.

 

[OneIsTheWord]

Law and Order

​

Hebrews 10: 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

James 2: 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Purpose of the Law​

​

Galatians 3: 19 -25 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

​

 

[Meriweather]

God's justice is not always immediate, though. But maybe that's not what you meant?

Coincidentally, I was just thinking about the topic of justice earlier today. I was thinking that when people do wrong, there are both natural consequences that, as you put it, are intrinsic to an action (e.g: a habit of drunkenness results in messing up one's health, killing brain cells, hurting others. Adultery results in broken trust, often divorce, etc.) And then there's the long-term consequences that happen much later, when we stand before the judgement of God. Which of course is why everyone needs salvation/forgiveness long before it gets to that point.

Like I said earlier, when push comes to shove, everyone wants mercy for themselves, but justice for others. The parable of the unforgiving servant is a perfect example of that.

(anyway, I know this sort of off topic, but I think the topic of justice / mercy is a good one.)

No, not off topic and well said. I agree that God's justice is not always immediate. It also appears that we must ask for mercy, although I don't think that is a hard and fast rule. The reason we may want justice for others is that while we may be almost certain we learned our lesson and would avoid that error in the future, we don't often have that assurance from others, especially if it is a repeated behavior that has hurt us/others in the past. How is leaving someone free to hurt/harm others justice for anyone?

 

[Kruska]

A recent homily was centered on The Justice We Deserve or The Mercy We Need.

Today the Catholic Church celebrates Divine Mercy. St. Maria Faustina noted God will not deny his mercy to anyone, and God's mercy will never be exhausted.

Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Höss was the commandant of the Auschwitz death camp, where over three million lost their lives. Höss was commented that he only killed about 2.5 million; the others died from sickness or starvation (under his watch).

Long story short: Before his death he had a change of heart about what he had done. He had been raised Catholic. He asked a Catholic priest to hear his confession and he was absolved of his sins. He received communion prior to his death. He had been sentenced to hang.

What say you in this case: Should justice outweigh mercy?

The secular world - thanks for that, came up with Justice, whilst e.g. the Christian world lives with and propagates this "assumed" mercy by their God. (the same vengeful God, that had wiped out humanity and annihilated continuously innocent people and their cities, see OT).

It is obvious to any non-religious person, that "God's mercy" is a purely made up issue (fantasy) by religious leaders to garner sheep, aka to invent a way for a believer to redeem his "soul". And it is therefore solely up to religious persons to believe in this.

As such it doesn't matter, since secular justice will handle ALL judicial issues and crimes independently of whatever religious belief an e.g. Christian country or person beholds, aka Höss got rightfully executed.

 

[Meriweather]

The secular world - thanks for that, came up with Justice, whilst e.g. the Christian world lives with and propagates this "assumed" mercy by their God. (the same vengeful God, that had wiped out humanity and annihilated continuously innocent people and their cities, see OT).

The Old Testament gets a bad rap. It does not translate well from ancient Hebrew into modern English; Biblical culture is entirely foreign to modern Western culture. The further complication while inspired by God, the Bible was written by men from the perspective of their time and culture. God's story is there, the stars sprinkled through the dark night. Read the Old Testament in Hebrew in the context of their own time and those who grew up knowing only modern Western Culture and modern English and see God differently, thereby seeing His mercy so much more clearly.