Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

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Warm and Fuzzy Gets Squished

That cowardly and traitorous advice was meant to protect the Romans, who had hired Jesus to pacify the Jews.

I'm ok with you believing that. I hope it gives you comfort. My comfort is God.

The LORD is my shepherd; there is nothing I lack. In green pastures he makes me lie down; to still waters he leads me; he restores my soul. He guides me along right paths for the sake of his name. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff comfort me. You set a table before me in front of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Indeed, goodness and mercy will pursue me all the days of my life; I will dwell in the house of the LORD for endless days.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Jews were not pacifists.

Missy Messiah

That's exactly why they rejected Jesus's touchy-feely preaching.

 

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Missy Messiah

That's exactly why they rejected Jesus's touchy-feely preaching.

And here I thought it was because they didn't take kindly to a nobody correcting their religious misconceptions and calling out their hypocrisy. I guess they forgot that David was a nobody until he became a somebody.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

And as for your beliefs that Jews were not pacifists... Hitler would disagree. He herded them like sheep.

Cowardice Is the Crime That Enables All Others

The Jews had absorbed the suicidal pacifism that had infected most of Europe at that time, after the warrior spirit had been squeezed out of people because of the warlords' policy of human sacrifice in the trenches of World War I.

As in Vietnam, the hidden purpose of that war was to kill off or take the fight out of the bravest sons of the working class.

 

[alang1216]

Yes, but Exodus was when it began to take root in earnest. Exodus makes it pretty clear it wasn't an event. Lot's of backsliding. But how is that not like anything else.

What is that timeline based on? The archeology says Jews were polytheists for another 1,000 years.

 

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Cowardice Is the Crime That Enables All Others

Absolute statements like that are hard to prove and usually incorrect. You'd be better served using some caveats like "almost." But if you don't mind making absolute statements, I don't mind correcting them.

The Jews had absorbed the suicidal pacifism that had infected most of Europe at that time, after the warrior spirit had been squeezed out of people because of the warlords' policy of human sacrifice in the trenches of World War I.

As in Vietnam, the hidden purpose of that war was to kill off or take the fight out of the bravest sons of the working class.

And here I thought it was greed fueling fear by warmongers. Who knew

 

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What is that timeline based on? The archeology says Jews were polytheists for another 1,000 years.

Their texts. How does archelogy distinguish the distribution within the tribes? And more importantly why do you believe this matters?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

100%



I use to pray to God to be the angel of death, but now I just acept what I can control which is pretty much just me. It's probably a good thing he denied my request. I would have been brutal. How's that for honesty?

There Is No "I" in "Team"

If you choose to respond only within your own little cubbyhole, when others being pushed down far outnumber the pushers. People like you will be picked off one by one.

 

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There Is No "I" in "Team"

If you choose to respond only within your own little cubbyhole, when others being pushed down far outnumber the pushers.

I don't know how to respond any other way. What would you suggest?

People like you will be picked off one by one.

Maybe. Maybe not. Only time will tell. You do know no one is getting out of here alive, right? So how can the flesh be of avail? If this is all there is, I'm good with that.

 

[alang1216]

Their texts. How does archelogy distinguish the distribution within the tribes? And more importantly why do you believe this matters?

Those texts were not written down for 1,000 years while archeology shows that usually homes in Israel where Yahweh was worshipped, other gods were also worshipped.

It only matters if you care what the Bible says and why it says it. If you want to put your own personal spin on the Bible, it hardly matters what is says.

 

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Those texts were not written down for 1,000 years while archeology shows that usually homes in Israel where Yahweh was worshipped, other gods were also worshipped.

Again... how did archeology determine the distribution?

It only matters if you care what the Bible says and why it says it. If you want to put your own personal spin on the Bible, it hardly matters what is says.

It matters because the accounts are in the context of a people transitioning from polytheism to monotheism. Understanding this is important in understanding the accounts.

That you don't believe you are putting your spin on these accounts is mind boggling.

 

[alang1216]

Again... how did archeology determine the distribution?

It matters because the accounts are in the context of a people transitioning from polytheism to monotheism. Understanding this is important in understanding the accounts.

Israelites in Biblical Dan Worshipped Idols – and Yahweh Too, Archaeologists Discover

 

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Israelites in Biblical Dan Worshipped Idols – and Yahweh Too, Archaeologists Discover

Can you thumbnail it for me? Because here is all I was able to see without subscribing.

The Ten Tribes living in the Kingdom of Israel during the 8th century B.C.E. practiced a mixed religion, but contrary to the conventional wisdom among biblical scholars, their main deity was Yahweh after all, not the Canaanite god El and his envoys, golden calves and goat-shaped demons.

I got this from a google search.

Archaeological excavations at Tel Dan reveal a massive, 10th–8th century B.C.E. cultic complex, including a large altar and platform, confirming it was a major center for worshipping YHWH, likely to rival Jerusalem. While the Bible describes Jeroboam promoting golden calves and goat demons (se'irim) to discourage travel to the south, the site indicates a complex religious landscape where official, syncretistic worship of YHWH coexisted with other rites.
Haaretz +4

• The Temple Complex: Excavations uncovered a massive iron-age temenos (sacred precinct) featuring a 10-foot-high horned altar.
• Purpose: The site served as a direct, political, and religious alternative to the Temple in Jerusalem.
• Nature of Worship: The "golden calves" were likely meant to represent YHWH himself in a form of syncretism rather than a total rejection of the God of Israel, or to symbolize the "Bull of Jacob".
• Additional Finds: Evidence of "goat demons" (se'irim) was found alongside the main cultic items, suggesting a blend of practices.
  Haaretz +6

The findings show that while the northern kingdom rejected the Jerusalem priesthood, the Dan site was a major, official, and legitimate-looking temple to YHWH.

 

[alang1216]

Can you thumbnail it for me?

Yes, it says you were wrong.

The Ten Tribes living in the Kingdom of Israel during the 8th century B.C.E. practiced a mixed religion, but contrary to the conventional wisdom among biblical scholars, their main deity was Yahweh after all, not the Canaanite god El and his envoys, golden calves and goat-shaped demons.

I got this from a google search.

Archaeological excavations at Tel Dan reveal a massive, 10th–8th century B.C.E. cultic complex, including a large altar and platform, confirming it was a major center for worshipping YHWH, likely to rival Jerusalem. While the Bible describes Jeroboam promoting golden calves and goat demons (se'irim) to discourage travel to the south, the site indicates a complex religious landscape where official, syncretistic worship of YHWH coexisted with other rites.
Haaretz +4

• The Temple Complex: Excavations uncovered a massive iron-age temenos (sacred precinct) featuring a 10-foot-high horned altar.
• Purpose: The site served as a direct, political, and religious alternative to the Temple in Jerusalem.
• Nature of Worship: The "golden calves" were likely meant to represent YHWH himself in a form of syncretism rather than a total rejection of the God of Israel, or to symbolize the "Bull of Jacob".
• Additional Finds: Evidence of "goat demons" (se'irim) was found alongside the main cultic items, suggesting a blend of practices.
  Haaretz +6

The findings show that while the northern kingdom rejected the Jerusalem priesthood, the Dan site was a major, official, and legitimate-looking temple to YHWH.

I got this from a google search:

AI Overview of: Israelites in Biblical Dan Worshipped Idols – and Yahweh Too, Archaeologists Discover

Archaeological excavations at Tel Dan in northern Israel have revealed that 9th-century B.C.E. Israelites practiced a syncretic religion, worshipping the national god Yahweh alongside idols and other deities.
Finds including a four-horned altar and cultic objects show that traditional, polytheistic, or Canaanite-influenced practices existed alongside Yahwism.

Key Findings and Insights:

• Organized Yahweh Worship: Analysis shows that worshippers in Dan were organized in their veneration of Yahweh as early as the 9th century B.C.E., challenging earlier, solely biblical, assumptions that this only occurred after 720 B.C.E..
• Widespread Idolatry: Despite the biblical narrative condemning it, the findings confirm that the Danites, along with other Israelites, frequently engaged in idol worship, including the use of high places and potential Canaanite deities.
• Religious Syncretism: The Israelites in this period often blended the worship of Yahweh with other, older Canaanite religious practices.
• Archaeological Evidence: The site produced evidence of a cult center, including a four-horned altar, which was used for animal sacrifices and rituals.

This discovery highlights that ancient Israelite religion was far more diverse and complex than the monotheistic, centralized worship described in later biblical texts, showing a, "mixed" faith that included both the God of Israel and other idols.

 

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Yes, it says you were wrong.

Actually it didn't. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on your error. It's amazing how easy it was for you to just lie about that. I'm wondering if you even clicked on the link before posting it.

 

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Yes, it says you were wrong.


I got this from a google search:

AI Overview of: Israelites in Biblical Dan Worshipped Idols – and Yahweh Too, Archaeologists Discover

Archaeological excavations at Tel Dan in northern Israel have revealed that 9th-century B.C.E. Israelites practiced a syncretic religion, worshipping the national god Yahweh alongside idols and other deities.
Finds including a four-horned altar and cultic objects show that traditional, polytheistic, or Canaanite-influenced practices existed alongside Yahwism.

Key Findings and Insights:

• Organized Yahweh Worship: Analysis shows that worshippers in Dan were organized in their veneration of Yahweh as early as the 9th century B.C.E., challenging earlier, solely biblical, assumptions that this only occurred after 720 B.C.E..
• Widespread Idolatry: Despite the biblical narrative condemning it, the findings confirm that the Danites, along with other Israelites, frequently engaged in idol worship, including the use of high places and potential Canaanite deities.
• Religious Syncretism: The Israelites in this period often blended the worship of Yahweh with other, older Canaanite religious practices.
• Archaeological Evidence: The site produced evidence of a cult center, including a four-horned altar, which was used for animal sacrifices and rituals.

This discovery highlights that ancient Israelite religion was far more diverse and complex than the monotheistic, centralized worship described in later biblical texts, showing a, "mixed" faith that included both the God of Israel and other idols.

Which is exactly how it was portrayed in the OT. Or did you miss that too?

The findings show that while the northern kingdom rejected the Jerusalem priesthood, the Dan site was a major, official, and legitimate-looking temple to YHWH.

Archaeological excavations at Tel Dan reveal a massive, 10th–8th century B.C.E. cultic complex, including a large altar and platform, confirming it was a major center for worshipping YHWH, likely to rival Jerusalem. While the Bible describes Jeroboam promoting golden calves and goat demons (se'irim) to discourage travel to the south, the site indicates a complex religious landscape where official, syncretistic worship of YHWH coexisted with other rites.

 

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Yes, it says you were wrong.

Here is what it says before requiring a subscription to see the rest.

"The Ten Tribes living in the Kingdom of Israel during the 8th century B.C.E. practiced a mixed religion, but contrary to the conventional wisdom among biblical scholars, their main deity was Yahweh after all, not the Canaanite god El and his envoys, golden calves and goat-shaped demons."

 

[alang1216]

Here is what it says before requiring a subscription to see the rest.

"The Ten Tribes living in the Kingdom of Israel during the 8th century B.C.E. practiced a mixed religion, but contrary to the conventional wisdom among biblical scholars, their main deity was Yahweh after all, not the Canaanite god El and his envoys, golden calves and goat-shaped demons."

"Main deity"? They sound like polytheists to me.

 

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"Main deity"? They sound like polytheists to me.

Oh, brother. You really cracked the case wide open there. Breaking news... ancient Israelites took awhile to become montheists. Isn't that literally what the OT recorded? I mean they made it the first commandment for a reason, right?

The thing I like about the archeological data is that it showed monotheism was the dominant religion and it showed a division between the monotheists in Jerusalem and the monotheists in Dan. Which is perfectly natural in religion. As is the existence of other minor religions. It's no different than today.

Do you have some weird logic that says unless everyone believes the same things none of it can be true?

 

[alang1216]

Oh, brother. You really cracked the case wide open there. Breaking news... ancient Israelites took awhile to become montheists. Isn't that literally what the OT recorded? I mean they made it the first commandment for a reason, right?

Seems odd to me that the one and only God would even mention "other gods". Was he originally a polytheist too?

The thing I like about the archeological data is that it showed monotheism was the dominant religion and it showed a division between the monotheists in Jerusalem and the monotheists in Dan. Which is perfectly natural in religion. As is the existence of other minor religions. It's no different than today.

That is exactly what it doesn't show. Monolatry is not monotheism.