Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

[ding]

Seems odd to me that the one and only God would even mention "other gods". Was he originally a polytheist too?

Is it really news to you that God didn't write the bible?

You know what would have been odd? Everyone believing the exact same thing. That would have been odd. Rather than seeing it for what it is, you seem to think what it is disproves what it is.

Pretty much everything from the beginning of Genesis 1 through the Patriarchal Age was an oral history. They weren't hearing about it for the first time from Moses. But as near as I can tell, it was during the time of Exodus that the transition from polytheism to monotheism began in earnest. So having different beliefs co-exist at the same time is not unusal. It is perfectly natural. And in no way does the transition from polytheism to monotheism discredit monotheism.

The first eleven chapters of Genesis were ancient historical events - during a time when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land - that were crafted to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice and Israel's relationship with God.

These early accounts are from Sumerian times when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land. The beliefs expressed in Genesis about a creator God that is moralistic and providential but did not control the affairs of men were a radical departure from polytheistic beliefs.

These accounts share notable similarities with older myths from other ancient Near Eastern cultures, leading many scholars to conclude they were adapted, rather than "stolen," to express Israelite monotheistic beliefs. The biblical authors reworked common literary motifs to convey their unique theological message.

Key examples of these parallels include:

• The Flood Narrative: The story of Noah and the Ark shares significant plot details with the flood account in the much older Epic of Gilgamesh and the even earlier Atrahasis Epicfrom Mesopotamia.
  • Similarities: In both, a divine figure or council of gods decides to send a great flood to destroy humanity; a chosen man (Noah/Utnapishtim) is warned and instructed to build a large boat; animals are brought on board to preserve life; birds are sent out after the flood to check for dry land; the vessel lands on a mountain; and sacrifices are offered afterward.
  • Differences: The biblical account features one all-powerful God acting for moral reasons (human wickedness), while the Mesopotamian versions involve a pantheon of squabbling gods who are annoyed by human noise or simply choose to wipe them out, with one god breaking ranks to save his favorite human.
• Creation Accounts: The Genesis 1 creation story has parallels with the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish.
  • Similarities: Both describe a primeval watery chaos before creation, the separation of waters by a firmament (sky), the creation of light before the sun and moon, and a similar sequence of events leading to a period of divine rest. The Hebrew word for the "deep" (tehom) in Genesis is linguistically related to the name of the chaos goddess Tiamat in the Enuma Elish.
  • Differences: Genesis is strictly monotheistic and portrays a sovereign, peaceful creation by divine command ("God said, 'Let there be...'"), while the Enuma Elish is polytheistic and involves a violent cosmic battle between the gods. Humans in Genesis are created in God's image and given dominion, while in the Enuma Elish, humans are created from the blood of a slain god to serve as the gods' slaves.

In essence, the ancient Israelites were part of the wider ancient Near Eastern culture and "breathed the same air". Their scribes used existing cultural and literary forms to present a revolutionary new idea: the existence of a single, all-powerful, and just God who created the world and humanity with purpose. The shared motifs help place the biblical texts within their historical context, but the theological emphasis remains uniquely Israelite.

 

[ding]

That is exactly what it doesn't show. Monolatry is not monotheism.

It shows exactly what I said it shows. It showed belief in Yahwee was the dominant religion and it showed a division between the Jerusalem and Dan. Which is perfectly natural in religion. As is the existence of other minor religions. It's no different than today.

I even provided quotes. WTF is wrong with you?

 

[alang1216]

Is it really news to you that God didn't write the bible?

You know what would have been odd? Everyone believing the exact same thing. That would have been odd. Rather than seeing it for what it is, you seem to think what it is disproves what it is.

Pretty much everything from the beginning of Genesis 1 through the Patriarchal Age was an oral history. They weren't hearing about it for the first time from Moses. But as near as I can tell, it was during the time of Exodus that the transition from polytheism to monotheism began in earnest. So having different beliefs co-exist at the same time is not unusal. It is perfectly natural. And in no way does the transition from polytheism to monotheism discredit monotheism.

The first eleven chapters of Genesis were ancient historical events - during a time when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land - that were crafted to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice and Israel's relationship with God.

These early accounts are from Sumerian times when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land. The beliefs expressed in Genesis about a creator God that is moralistic and providential but did not control the affairs of men were a radical departure from polytheistic beliefs.

These accounts share notable similarities with older myths from other ancient Near Eastern cultures, leading many scholars to conclude they were adapted, rather than "stolen," to express Israelite monotheistic beliefs. The biblical authors reworked common literary motifs to convey their unique theological message.

Key examples of these parallels include:

• The Flood Narrative: The story of Noah and the Ark shares significant plot details with the flood account in the much older Epic of Gilgamesh and the even earlier Atrahasis Epicfrom Mesopotamia.
  • Similarities: In both, a divine figure or council of gods decides to send a great flood to destroy humanity; a chosen man (Noah/Utnapishtim) is warned and instructed to build a large boat; animals are brought on board to preserve life; birds are sent out after the flood to check for dry land; the vessel lands on a mountain; and sacrifices are offered afterward.
  • Differences: The biblical account features one all-powerful God acting for moral reasons (human wickedness), while the Mesopotamian versions involve a pantheon of squabbling gods who are annoyed by human noise or simply choose to wipe them out, with one god breaking ranks to save his favorite human.
• Creation Accounts: The Genesis 1 creation story has parallels with the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish.
  • Similarities: Both describe a primeval watery chaos before creation, the separation of waters by a firmament (sky), the creation of light before the sun and moon, and a similar sequence of events leading to a period of divine rest. The Hebrew word for the "deep" (tehom) in Genesis is linguistically related to the name of the chaos goddess Tiamat in the Enuma Elish.
  • Differences: Genesis is strictly monotheistic and portrays a sovereign, peaceful creation by divine command ("God said, 'Let there be...'"), while the Enuma Elish is polytheistic and involves a violent cosmic battle between the gods. Humans in Genesis are created in God's image and given dominion, while in the Enuma Elish, humans are created from the blood of a slain god to serve as the gods' slaves.

In essence, the ancient Israelites were part of the wider ancient Near Eastern culture and "breathed the same air". Their scribes used existing cultural and literary forms to present a revolutionary new idea: the existence of a single, all-powerful, and just God who created the world and humanity with purpose. The shared motifs help place the biblical texts within their historical context, but the theological emphasis remains uniquely Israelite.

No it is not news to me that God didn't write the bible. The bible is a creation of man just as God is a creation of man. Studying the bible shows the evolution of Jewish theology and makes it apparent it didn't come from a single divinity but an evolving human culture.

 

[Meriweather]

No it is not news to me that God didn't write the bible. The bible is a creation of man just as God is a creation of man. Studying the bible shows the evolution of Jewish theology and makes it apparent it didn't come from a single divinity but an evolving human culture.

The Bible and God are not creations of mankind, but observations.

 

[ding]

No it is not news to me that God didn't write the bible. The bible is a creation of man just as God is a creation of man. Studying the bible shows the evolution of Jewish theology and makes it apparent it didn't come from a single divinity but an evolving human culture.

Is this your new thing? It seems like your arguments against the Creator evolve over time too. Does this mean your belief the creator doesn't exist is wrong too? Unfortunately for you arguing water is wet won't do it. The OT accounts don't hide this. It's literally what the Bible recorded. Where do you believe they got this from if not from the Bible? So explain again how this means God doesn't exist?

Jewish theology has evolved significantly over thousands of years, transitioning from ancient polytheistic or monolatrous Canaanite roots to monotheism, developing through the Second Temple period (Pharisees/Sadducees), and transforming into Rabbinic Judaism after 70 CE. Key changes included shifting from temple-based sacrifice to Torah study/prayer, and incorporating Hellenistic, apocalyptic, and mystical ideas.

Key Stages of Evolution:

• Ancient Israelite Religion: Evolved from a polytheistic, Canaanite-based tradition, where Yahweh was initially one of many gods, into a monolatrous system (worshipping one God while acknowledging others).
• Monotheistic Transition: During the Babylonian exile, this evolved into strict, universal monotheism.
• Second Temple Period: Judaism became non-monolithic, with diverse groups (Pharisees, Sadducees) influencing theology, alongside apocalyptic literature (e.g., 1 Enoch) and Hellenistic philosophy (e.g., Philo's Logos).
• Rabbinic Judaism: After the destruction of the Second Temple (70 CE), the focus shifted to prayer, study, and the Talmud.
• Medieval and Modern Era: Theology continued to evolve through Kabbalah, philosophy (Maimonides), and modern movements (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox).

 

[ding]

...the evolution of Jewish theology and makes it apparent it didn't come from a single divinity but an evolving human culture.

How does the evolution of Jewish theology make it apparent that there isn't one God that is moralistic and providential that created existence?

 

[ding]

alang1216

The evolution of Jewish theology is primarily sourced from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and expanded through the Oral Law tradition, which was later codified in the Mishnah, Talmud, and Midrash. It developed from ancient Israelite polytheism/monolatry towards strict monotheism, heavily influenced by the Babylonian exile and the subsequent Second Temple period.

Key sources for the evolution of Jewish theology include:

• The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh): The foundational text containing the Torah, Prophets (Nevi'im), and Writings (Ketuvim), detailing the covenantal relationship with God.
• The Talmud and Rabbinic Literature: The Mishnah (compiled c. 200 CE) and the Gemara constitute the Oral Law, defining rabbinic theology.
• Historical & Cultural Shifts: The transition from Temple-based sacrifice to synagogue-based prayer, and the influence of Persian, Hellenistic, and Islamic philosophy.
• Key Thinkers: Medieval philosophy, specifically Saadia Gaon (10th century) and Maimonides (12th century), introduced systematic theology and rationalist thought.
• Modern Theology: Post-Enlightenment, Jewish theology continued to evolve through movements like Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Judaism, responding to modernity and the Holocaust.

 

[ding]

alang1216

Monotheism became the dominant, defining Jewish belief during the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE. While early Israelite religion featured the worship of Yahweh alongside other gods (monolatry), the exile facilitated a shift toward strict, universal monotheism, becoming firmly established by the early Persian period (5th century BCE).

Key details:

• Pre-Exilic Beliefs (12th–7th Century BCE): Israelites were largely monolatrous or polytheistic, often honoring Yahweh as the national god while acknowledging other deities.
• The Transition (7th–6th Century BCE): Reforms under King Josiah (late 7th century BCE) promoted exclusive worship of Yahweh, but true monotheism solidified during the Exile, where prophets argued that Yahweh was the only God of the entire universe, not just one nation.
• Post-Exilic Dominance (5th Century BCE onwards): Following the return from Babylon, the Jewish community in Judea embraced this strict monotheism, cementing it as the foundational theology of Second Temple Judaism.

This transition was a gradual process, shifting from the belief that Yahweh was the strongest god among many to the belief that only Yahweh exists, as described by researchers on Murdoch University.

 

[alang1216]

It shows exactly what I said it shows. It showed belief in Yahwee was the dominant religion and it showed a division between the Jerusalem and Dan. Which is perfectly natural in religion. As is the existence of other minor religions. It's no different than today.

I even provided quotes. WTF is wrong with you?

There is nothing wrong with me. And that is the last bit of information about me you will get.

 

[alang1216]

Is this your new thing? It seems like your arguments against the Creator evolve over time too. Does this mean your belief the creator doesn't exist is wrong too? Unfortunately for you arguing water is wet won't do it. The OT accounts don't hide this. It's literally what the Bible recorded. Where do you believe they got this from if not from the Bible? So explain again how this means God doesn't exist?

I never mentioned the Creator, only God. It is you that believe they are one and the same. So what the bible recorded came from the bible??

Jewish theology has evolved significantly over thousands of years, transitioning from ancient polytheistic or monolatrous Canaanite roots to monotheism, developing through the Second Temple period (Pharisees/Sadducees), and transforming into Rabbinic Judaism after 70 CE. Key changes included shifting from temple-based sacrifice to Torah study/prayer, and incorporating Hellenistic, apocalyptic, and mystical ideas.

Key Stages of Evolution:

• Ancient Israelite Religion: Evolved from a polytheistic, Canaanite-based tradition, where Yahweh was initially one of many gods, into a monolatrous system (worshipping one God while acknowledging others).
• Monotheistic Transition: During the Babylonian exile, this evolved into strict, universal monotheism.
• Second Temple Period: Judaism became non-monolithic, with diverse groups (Pharisees, Sadducees) influencing theology, alongside apocalyptic literature (e.g., 1 Enoch) and Hellenistic philosophy (e.g., Philo's Logos).
• Rabbinic Judaism: After the destruction of the Second Temple (70 CE), the focus shifted to prayer, study, and the Talmud.
• Medieval and Modern Era: Theology continued to evolve through Kabbalah, philosophy (Maimonides), and modern movements (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox).

I agree and always did.

 

[alang1216]

How does the evolution of Jewish theology make it apparent that there isn't one God that is moralistic and providential that created existence?

If Jewish theology was a creation of man there doesn't seem to be a need for God.

 

[ding]

There is nothing wrong with me. And that is the last bit of information about me you will get.

This isn't new information. You act like it's some kind of revelation. It's only new to you. It wasn't new to me. It doesn't change a thing. It's only the new latest thing you use to confirm your bias. You know... the one you formed when you were twelve years old and knew nothing.

 

[ding]

I never mentioned the Creator, only God. It is you that believe they are one and the same. So what the bible recorded came from the bible??

Not for me it didn't. My belief of God came from studying what he created. There is only one God, you are the one who cares what he is called. Not me.

It might be less confusing when you shit on God to label him the God of Abraham. That way it's not confusing which God you are shitting on.

I agree and always did.

That's probably why this is the first I am hearing about it from you.

 

[Hafar1014]

If Jewish theology was a creation of man there doesn't seem to be a need for God.

Actually a good thought since God does not control our lives or mess with our reality.

 

[Hafar1014]

The Bible and God are not creations of mankind, but observations.

You cant observe God. The Bible is a creation of men Jewish men

 

[ding]

If Jewish theology was a creation of man there doesn't seem to be a need for God.

You may dismiss the role revelation (i.e. God seeking man) played but I don't. Just because the OT is embellished to teach lessons about the covenant, justice, obedience and their relationship with God, that doesn't mean there were no revelations. God reveals things to me all the time and probably even you too. But the ultimate revelation, the ultimate revealed religion came from Jesus Christ. Who validated the veracity of their claim of being chosen to establish laws.

 

[Hafar1014]

Is it really news to you that God didn't write the bible?

You know what would have been odd? Everyone believing the exact same thing. That would have been odd. Rather than seeing it for what it is, you seem to think what it is disproves what it is.

Pretty much everything from the beginning of Genesis 1 through the Patriarchal Age was an oral history. They weren't hearing about it for the first time from Moses. But as near as I can tell, it was during the time of Exodus that the transition from polytheism to monotheism began in earnest. So having different beliefs co-exist at the same time is not unusal. It is perfectly natural. And in no way does the transition from polytheism to monotheism discredit monotheism.

The first eleven chapters of Genesis were ancient historical events - during a time when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land - that were crafted to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience, justice and Israel's relationship with God.

These early accounts are from Sumerian times when polytheism was the dominant religion of the land. The beliefs expressed in Genesis about a creator God that is moralistic and providential but did not control the affairs of men were a radical departure from polytheistic beliefs.

These accounts share notable similarities with older myths from other ancient Near Eastern cultures, leading many scholars to conclude they were adapted, rather than "stolen," to express Israelite monotheistic beliefs. The biblical authors reworked common literary motifs to convey their unique theological message.

Key examples of these parallels include:

• The Flood Narrative: The story of Noah and the Ark shares significant plot details with the flood account in the much older Epic of Gilgamesh and the even earlier Atrahasis Epicfrom Mesopotamia.
  • Similarities: In both, a divine figure or council of gods decides to send a great flood to destroy humanity; a chosen man (Noah/Utnapishtim) is warned and instructed to build a large boat; animals are brought on board to preserve life; birds are sent out after the flood to check for dry land; the vessel lands on a mountain; and sacrifices are offered afterward.
  • Differences: The biblical account features one all-powerful God acting for moral reasons (human wickedness), while the Mesopotamian versions involve a pantheon of squabbling gods who are annoyed by human noise or simply choose to wipe them out, with one god breaking ranks to save his favorite human.
• Creation Accounts: The Genesis 1 creation story has parallels with the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish.
  • Similarities: Both describe a primeval watery chaos before creation, the separation of waters by a firmament (sky), the creation of light before the sun and moon, and a similar sequence of events leading to a period of divine rest. The Hebrew word for the "deep" (tehom) in Genesis is linguistically related to the name of the chaos goddess Tiamat in the Enuma Elish.
  • Differences: Genesis is strictly monotheistic and portrays a sovereign, peaceful creation by divine command ("God said, 'Let there be...'"), while the Enuma Elish is polytheistic and involves a violent cosmic battle between the gods. Humans in Genesis are created in God's image and given dominion, while in the Enuma Elish, humans are created from the blood of a slain god to serve as the gods' slaves.

In essence, the ancient Israelites were part of the wider ancient Near Eastern culture and "breathed the same air". Their scribes used existing cultural and literary forms to present a revolutionary new idea: the existence of a single, all-powerful, and just God who created the world and humanity with purpose. The shared motifs help place the biblical texts within their historical context, but the theological emphasis remains uniquely Israelite.

Genesis is an allegory they arent actual events.

 

[ding]

You cant observe God.

You don't believe a divine spark exists within you?

 

[ding]

The Bible is a creation of men Jewish men

And according to alang1216 it was made up; a work of fiction. Is that how you see it too?

 

[ding]

Genesis is an allegory they arent actual events.

I know. According to you God gave man an evil inclination and God is tempting us.