Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

[GreatestIam]

Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

Scriptures seem conflicted on the answer.

They show an all-powerful god whose plan and will cannot be thwarted or derailed, while at the same time indicating that he cannot do his will and that people can derail his plan to save everyone.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you have faith?

If you do, you cannot believe in hell. You would not think god a loser by believing he saves us all, as his will indicates. Those scriptures say he has no need of a hell for us.

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

Scriptures seem conflicted on the answer.

They show an all-powerful god whose plan and will cannot be thwarted or derailed, while at the same time indicating that he cannot do his will and that people can derail his plan to save everyone.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you have faith?

If you do, you cannot believe in hell. You would not think god a loser by believing he saves us all, as his will indicates. Those scriptures say he has no need of a hell for us.

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

Regards
DL

The apparent confusion results in not being able to comprehend, understand and or see how all things work for good.

It is a common error of atheists like yourself and used to justify their irrational and emotional view of reality. They can’t understand how a good God can allow bad things to happen to good people. I see this irrationality all the time in people who behave like you do.

 

[Newtonian]

Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

Scriptures seem conflicted on the answer.

They show an all-powerful god whose plan and will cannot be thwarted or derailed, while at the same time indicating that he cannot do his will and that people can derail his plan to save everyone.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you have faith?

If you do, you cannot believe in hell. You would not think god a loser by believing he saves us all, as his will indicates. Those scriptures say he has no need of a hell for us.

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

Regards
DL

There are 2 Scriptures I will start off with in response - the first shows that all things are NOT going according to God's plan - and, of course, the doctrine of pre-destination is false, while it is true that all humans have free will:

Genesis 6:6
And Jehovah felt regrets+ that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.+

Jehovah wanted all people to live forever on a paradise earth (Psalms 37:29) - that is why he put the tree of life in the garden of Eden (Genesis 2:9; 3:22). However, people decided to choose good and evil for themselves (as per the other tree), and they chose evil:

Genesis 6:5
Consequently, Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time.+

So Jehovah felt hurt at heart and regretted he had created humans because things had turned out so bad. Clearly everything did NOT go according to Gods plan. And the second Scripture involves the state of mankind right now - not so good (though not as bad as Gen.6:5):

2 Peter 3:9
Jehovah* is not slow concerning his promise,+ as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.+

God's promise involves all people living on a paradise earth forever (see Psalms 37:10,11,29; Matthew 5:5; Isaiah 11:7-9) - so his purpose for creation will ultimately succeed - but not according to God's original plan (cp. Genesis 3:15).

However, notice that Jehovah's desire is that all people attain to repentance and live forever. Yet verse 7 shows ungodly people will be destroyed (at Armageddon - see Revelation 11:18 -God will destroy those destroying this planet). So therefore, what Jehovah desires will not take place. since many will end up being destroyed (Matthew 7:13,14).

Yet, God has directed his witnesses (Isaiah 43:10,12) to preach the good news of God's kingdom to people of all nations (Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10) during these last days (of the wicked world/system of things). But do you know what the good news of God's kingdom is?

 

[Newtonian]

False religions misrepresent Jehovah/Yahweh in saying everything is part of God's plan as if God planned the suffering and wickedness on Earth today. As I posted above, things are not going the way Jehovah wanted. This is also true in the opposite sense. While in Genesis chapters 6-9 Jehovah brings destruction on mankind for their evil, the opposite example of Jehovah changing his mind (feeling regrets) is in the book of Jonah. Jehovah told Jonah:

Jonah 3:1-4
Then the word of Jehovah came to Joʹnah a second time, saying:+ 2 “Get up, go to Ninʹe·veh+ the great city, and proclaim to her the message that I tell you.
3 So Joʹnah got up and went to Ninʹe·veh+ in obedience to the word of Jehovah.+ Now Ninʹe·veh was a very large city*—a walking distance of three days. 4 Then Joʹnah entered the city, and walking a day’s journey, he was proclaiming: “In just 40 days more, Ninʹe·veh will be overthrown.

But Jehovah changed his mind and did not destroy Nineveh in 40 days. Some may have claimed Jonah was a false prophet - but this is actually an example of Jehovah's love and mercy:

Jonah 3:10
And the [true] God got to see their works,+ that they had turned back from their bad way;+ and so the [true] God felt regret+ over the calamity that he had spoken of causing to them; and he did not cause [it].+

Instead of Jonah also feeling compassion for these people, he became enraged over Jehovah changing his mind about destroying them:

Jonah 4:1-4
To Joʹnah, though, it was highly displeasing,+ and he got to be hot with anger. 2 Hence he prayed to Jehovah* and said: “Ah, now, O Jehovah, was not this an affair of mine,* while I happened to be on my own ground? That is why I went ahead and ran away to Tarʹshish;+ for I knew that you are a God* gracious and merciful,+ slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness,*+ and feeling regret over the calamity.+ 3 And now, O Jehovah, take away, please, my soul*+ from me, for my dying is better than my being alive.”*+
4 In turn Jehovah said: “Have you rightly become hot with anger?”+

Here Jonah is referring to Exodus 34:6,7 and Jeremiah 18:7-10 -

Jeremiah 18:7,8
Whenever I may speak about uprooting and pulling down and destroying a nation or a kingdom,+ 8 and that nation abandons its wickedness that I spoke against, I will also change my mind concerning* the calamity that I intended to bring against it.+

NW footnote on "change my mind" gives an alternate translation of this Hebrew phrase: "feel regret over." Some other translations of Jeremiah 18:8 -

New International Version
and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
Contemporary English Version
and that nation turns from its evil, I will change my mind.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But suppose the nation that I threatened turns away from doing wrong. Then I will change my plans about the disaster I planned to do to it.
NET Bible
But if that nation I threatened stops doing wrong, I will cancel the destruction I intended to do to it.
AMP
if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent and reverse My decision concerning the devastation that I intended to do.

The reason why Jehovah changed his mind/felt regrets over the destruction he had Jonah foretell was that he felt sorry for them as the conclusion of the book of Jonah reveals:

Jonah 4:9-11
God asked Joʹnah: “Is it right for you to be so angry over the bottle-gourd plant?”+
At that he said: “I have a right to be angry, so angry that I want to die.” 10 But Jehovah said: “You felt sorry for the bottle-gourd plant, which you did not work for, nor did you make it grow; it grew in one night and perished in one night. 11 Should I not also feel sorry for Ninʹe·veh the great city,+ in which there are more than 120,000 men who do not even know right from wrong,* as well as their many animals?”+

Is this what you all were taught about the God of the Bible?

 

[Hollie]

If you accept the notion of the Judeo-Christian personality "Yahweh", you either accept the literal, omni-everything attributes or you equivocate and accept the parts you're comfortable with and reject the rest.

That describes every religionist of every stripe and caliber of weapon I've ever met.

 

[Newtonian]

If you accept the notion of the Judeo-Christian personality "Yahweh", you either accept the literal, omni-everything attributes or you equivocate and accept the parts you're comfortable with and reject the rest.

That describes every religionist of every stripe and caliber of weapon I've ever met.

So you have not met me! Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept all of the Judeo-Christendom teachings about God - as I have posted concerning his "feeling regrets" or changing his mind - this is what the Bible really teaches but is not what most religions in Christendom teach.

The prefix "omni" is not in the Divine Name (YHWH), and we do not believe in the doctrine of omniscience/all knowing. God can know anything - but God is love and would never foreknow all things (like our futures) - see 1 John 4:8.

There is a scientific aspect to this as well. Simply, the future does not exist for anyone, including God, to see. God does not see things that do not exist. So how does God foretell the future? Two ways for starters:

1. Patterns that already exist. For example, Milky Way and thousands of other galaxies heading towards the Great Attractor and the Shapley Supercluster that lies even further away and is much more massive. The speed and trajectory of the Milky Way (and Andromeda galaxy, etc.) are known but scientists have not yet reported the results of all the galactic mergers involved - it is extremely complex math - but math does exist and does determine some aspects of the future.

2, Causing the future to happen. This is one reason the Bible warns against spiritism. See Deuteronomy chapter 18. The demons cannot see the future either - but they can cause future things to happen. This is one reason why spiritism is so dangerous - it is inviting our future to be controlled by demons!

But God can cause future things to happen - thankfully, God is love! (1 John 4:8; 2 Peter 3:9)

 

[Likkmee]

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done(when it comes) on Earth as it is in Heaven. Be patient.Satan runs this shithole. Look around.
He offered the whole thing to Yeshua.....and got laughed at.

 

[Newtonian]

You all - another example is in the pattern Cain was developing - the pattern was not sealed and God did not know which way Cain would choose. The very name Cain is defined as "something produced" but the Biblical account leaves open what Cain's thoughts/emotions would produce until he chose by his free will:

[Note: Eve chose the name Cain giving Jehovah the credit for allowing her to produce children - Genesis 4:1)]

Genesis 4:6,7
Then Jehovah said to Cain: “Why are you so angry and dejected? 7 If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor?* But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?”

Notice Jehovah did not foreknow which choice Cain would make - he ends the counsel to Cain with a question - would he gain the mastery over his anger?

The whole counsel Jehovah gave to Cain would have been a sham if Jehovah knew which choice Cain would make.

And even if he stayed angry and hated Abel - that would not necessarily lead to murdering his brother. None of this was foreknown by God - but God did see the pattern Cain was forming in his emotions and free will. That is why God warned Cain of the dangers of acting on his feelings.

Why would God warn Cain if he already knew which choice Cain would make? In reality it is because God loved Cain - cp. John 3:16.

God is love - he is not omniscient. Love always involves choice - no one can force anyone or predestine anyone to love anyone else - or how much to love another person.

 

[Newtonian]

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done(when it comes) on Earth as it is in Heaven. Be patient.Satan runs this shithole. Look around.
He offered the whole thing to Yeshua.....and got laughed at.

Yes, that is true. Satan could not have offered Jesus/Yeshua[Greel Iesous] all the kingdoms of the world if he was not the ruler of this world.

Interesting that you believe what we do about this!

 

[Hollie]

If you accept the notion of the Judeo-Christian personality "Yahweh", you either accept the literal, omni-everything attributes or you equivocate and accept the parts you're comfortable with and reject the rest.

That describes every religionist of every stripe and caliber of weapon I've ever met.

So you have not met me! Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept all of the Judeo-Christendom teachings about God - as I have posted concerning his "feeling regrets" or changing his mind - this is what the Bible really teaches but is not what most religions in Christendom teach.

The prefix "omni" is not in the Divine Name (YHWH), and we do not believe in the doctrine of omniscience/all knowing. God can know anything - but God is love and would never foreknow all things (like our futures) - see 1 John 4:8.

There is a scientific aspect to this as well. Simply, the future does not exist for anyone, including God, to see. God does not see things that do not exist. So how does God foretell the future? Two ways for starters:

1. Patterns that already exist. For example, Milky Way and thousands of other galaxies heading towards the Great Attractor and the Shapley Supercluster that lies even further away and is much more massive. The speed and trajectory of the Milky Way (and Andromeda galaxy, etc.) are known but scientists have not yet reported the results of all the galactic mergers involved - it is extremely complex math - but math does exist and does determine some aspects of the future.

2, Causing the future to happen. This is one reason the Bible warns against spiritism. See Deuteronomy chapter 18. The demons cannot see the future either - but they can cause future things to happen. This is one reason why spiritism is so dangerous - it is inviting our future to be controlled by demons!

But God can cause future things to happen - thankfully, God is love! (1 John 4:8; 2 Peter 3:9)

The JW franchise of Christianity is certainly different than that of others but I don’t see anything that is persuasive about their doctrines vs. other sects. JW doctrine is apparently different in that that it removes the attribute of omniscience that is usually attached to the Gods. And it’s true that the Bible doesn’t add the attribute of “omniscience” to the gods.

As to the Gods causing future things to happen, we’re left to that being mere assertion, utterly without corroboration. To be fair, you would need to establish a reasonable case for the existence of Gods before assuming theses Gods and then ascribing attributes to them.

For all the warm and fuzzy mystical attractiveness generated from perceptions such as Gods, I must point out that a demonstration or some evidence of these Gods is in order before we can move on to something more than wishful thinking. Your “feelings” of gods are firmly in the realm of wishful speculation and it will be a stretch from here to something deserving of more serious consideration.

 

[Newtonian]

If you accept the notion of the Judeo-Christian personality "Yahweh", you either accept the literal, omni-everything attributes or you equivocate and accept the parts you're comfortable with and reject the rest.

That describes every religionist of every stripe and caliber of weapon I've ever met.

As I posted, this does not describe my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses). I thought I posted the example of Cain - that Jehovah did not know which choice Cain would make.

 

[Newtonian]

W

If you accept the notion of the Judeo-Christian personality "Yahweh", you either accept the literal, omni-everything attributes or you equivocate and accept the parts you're comfortable with and reject the rest.

That describes every religionist of every stripe and caliber of weapon I've ever met.

So you have not met me! Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept all of the Judeo-Christendom teachings about God - as I have posted concerning his "feeling regrets" or changing his mind - this is what the Bible really teaches but is not what most religions in Christendom teach.

The prefix "omni" is not in the Divine Name (YHWH), and we do not believe in the doctrine of omniscience/all knowing. God can know anything - but God is love and would never foreknow all things (like our futures) - see 1 John 4:8.

There is a scientific aspect to this as well. Simply, the future does not exist for anyone, including God, to see. God does not see things that do not exist. So how does God foretell the future? Two ways for starters:

1. Patterns that already exist. For example, Milky Way and thousands of other galaxies heading towards the Great Attractor and the Shapley Supercluster that lies even further away and is much more massive. The speed and trajectory of the Milky Way (and Andromeda galaxy, etc.) are known but scientists have not yet reported the results of all the galactic mergers involved - it is extremely complex math - but math does exist and does determine some aspects of the future.

2, Causing the future to happen. This is one reason the Bible warns against spiritism. See Deuteronomy chapter 18. The demons cannot see the future either - but they can cause future things to happen. This is one reason why spiritism is so dangerous - it is inviting our future to be controlled by demons!

But God can cause future things to happen - thankfully, God is love! (1 John 4:8; 2 Peter 3:9)

The JW franchise of Christianity is certainly different than that of others but I don’t see anything that is persuasive about their doctrines vs. other sects. JW doctrine is apparently different in that that it removes the attribute of omniscience that is usually attached to the Gods. And it’s true that the Bible doesn’t add the attribute of “omniscience” to the gods.

As to the Gods causing future things to happen, we’re left to that being mere assertion, utterly without corroboration. To be fair, you would need to establish a reasonable case for the existence of Gods before assuming theses Gods and then ascribing attributes to them.

For all the warm and fuzzy mystical attractiveness generated from perceptions such as Gods, I must point out that a demonstration or some evidence of these Gods is in order before we can move on to something more than wishful thinking. Your “feelings” of gods are firmly in the realm of wishful speculation and it will be a stretch from here to something deserving of more serious consideration.

Well - at least you are learning more about what we actually believe. And that we teach what the Bible really teaches!

 

[DGS49]

God does not know or dictate the future. Human free will is absolute, and God does not directly influence the choices that people make.

Nor does He dictate in minute detail the machinations of the universe or the earth. He set in motion the physical initiation of the Universe (the Big Bang, if you must), in such a way that human life would be facilitated, but the universe is dynamic, not static, and "shit happens." Volcanoes, storms, floods, naturally-occurring fires, and earthquakes, are all essential to the dynamic universe, even though they result in great human suffering at times.

As the epitome of creation, WE must know that the death of our bodies is not the end of our existence, and hence when someone dies under circumstances that are unfair, outrageous, tragic, and so on, that death is not the end of the "story." "We" believe that there is an afterlife and that in some manner virtue is rewarded in the afterlife and evil is punished. So to shake your fist at God and call him names because of a tragic death is a DENIAL of one of our core beliefs - namely, that death is not the end.

 

[Newtonian]

God does not know or dictate the future. Human free will is absolute, and God does not directly influence the choices that people make.

Nor does He dictate in minute detail the machinations of the universe or the earth. He set in motion the physical initiation of the Universe (the Big Bang, if you must), in such a way that human life would be facilitated, but the universe is dynamic, not static, and "shit happens." Volcanoes, storms, floods, naturally-occurring fires, and earthquakes, are all essential to the dynamic universe, even though they result in great human suffering at times.

As the epitome of creation, WE must know that the death of our bodies is not the end of our existence, and hence when someone dies under circumstances that are unfair, outrageous, tragic, and so on, that death is not the end of the "story." "We" believe that there is an afterlife and that in some manner virtue is rewarded in the afterlife and evil is punished. So to shake your fist at God and call him names because of a tragic death is a DENIAL of one of our core beliefs - namely, that death is not the end.

As I posted, love involves free will. That is a primary way Jehovah does influence those who know and love him (Matthew 22:37-40). For example:

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.+

 

[ESay]

Newtonian
I have a question. Can God create a perfect world if he decides to do so?

 

[ding]

Newtonian
I have a question. Can God create a perfect world if he decides to do so?

Who said what he created isn’t perfect?

Doesn’t your assumption imply that you have perfect knowledge and that you know what the creator of existence was trying to create?’

Seems presumptuous on your part to believe you know better than a power that was capable of creating existence.

 

[Andylusion]

Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

Scriptures seem conflicted on the answer.

They show an all-powerful god whose plan and will cannot be thwarted or derailed, while at the same time indicating that he cannot do his will and that people can derail his plan to save everyone.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you have faith?

If you do, you cannot believe in hell. You would not think god a loser by believing he saves us all, as his will indicates. Those scriptures say he has no need of a hell for us.

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

Regards
DL

That's kind of a strange question. You are implying that if a man makes a choice, that this choice a man makes, means therefore that G-d is incompetent.

I would ask you, do you have children? Because any parent will know that ultimately no matter how perfectly they parent, the child can decide to make bad choices.

I wager you yourself have made bad choices. Can you honestly suggest that every bad choice you have made in your life, is due to your parents incompetence?

I can think of dozens of times where parents warned their children over and over, to not do something, and the child determined to do it anyway, and then reaped a terrible result.

Now could G-d have created men as robots with no ability to make a choice? Sure.

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Here you go. Here's some Virtual girlfriend apps. Let me know how much real genuine love you feel from a programmed response.

G-d did not want robots. He wanted people that could make their own choices. Unfortunately that means those people can choose to hate G-d. That's what free-will is all about.

Doesn't mean G-d is incompetent. If anything, it means we are incompetent to reject G-d when he's given us so much.

 

[Newtonian]

D

Newtonian
I have a question. Can God create a perfect world if he decides to do so?

Define "perfect."

In Scripture, perfect means complete for the purpose it was created.

God is love (1 John 4:8) - and he purposed for us to love Him and each other. However, the quality of love we were created with was part of being in 'God's image" (Genesis 1:26) which involves free will.

Jehovah wanted us to love Him (Matthew 22:37-40). But this type of love involves free will. Jehovah took a risk in creating Adam and Eve with the capacity to love as He loves. Of course, Jehovah could have created robots programmed to show love to Him - however Jehovah could not do this because He is love which involves free will. Put simply, Jehovah did not want his creations to love him automatically or by program - he wanted us to have a choice. Was it worth the risk?

To illustrate: Would you want someone to love you without choice? For example, when you look for someone to love and show love you hope they will love you back. It may be that a number of those do not choose to love you back, or love you less than you love them. But when you find someone that chooses to love you back - wasn't it worth the risk? Jehovah has found people who truly love him back - by choice, because they want to - not because they were programmed to,

 

[ESay]

Newtonian
I have a question. Can God create a perfect world if he decides to do so?

Who said what he created isn’t perfect?

Doesn’t your assumption imply that you have perfect knowledge and that you know what the creator of existence was trying to create?’

Seems presumptuous on your part to believe you know better than a power that was capable of creating existence.

I have no surprise you picked the word 'perfect' and tried to speculate around it. My question wasnt about perfect this world is or not. Nor about subjective meaning of 'perfect'. You missed my point.

 

[Newtonian]

Ah, I see Andylusion is on the same page as I am!