Zone1 Why All Rational People are Believers

[alang1216]

Faith is having complete trust in something or someone. I never put complete trust in something or someone without good reason. So while you may believe faith is unrelated to reason, I believe faith is 100% related to reason.

I'm admittedly skeptical but I'd be happy to hear of a good example of your belief in the supernatural that is related to reason.

 

[JustAGuy1]

The True Believers of the Church of J.C. of Latter Day Saints believe that if you lead a good life, you will be "exalted," which means that you will become a "god." In fact, they believe that the God of the Bible was once a man like us, who was exalted to godhood.

Imagine you are a god and you are bored. You lived a good life here and want to create world like this one, for your entertainment. There is one factor about this world that disturbs you a bit, but it cannot be helped, and it is this: Unless you want to micromanage every little thing on your Earth, life will be unfair. Seriously unfair. That is to say, some people will be born in abject poverty, some to great wealth. Some people will be born into a miserable society where disease darkens every day, and some will be born in "Canada." Some people will live their entire lives striving to do good things, but the frustrated by things over which they have no control, and others will blunder their way into great wealth and riches. It is really unavoidable.

But you, as god, can make one decision that rectifies all that. You can (a) choose to make the entirety of human existence the time between conception and natural death, or (b) you can create a means by with the unfairness of life will be rectified by an afterlife, an afterlife where a life of virtue is rewarded and a life of sloth or evil is either extinguished or punished. That is the one big choice that you can make.

I submit that although we are not gods, we can make that choice for ourselves. We can live our lives as though (b) were the actual facts of life.

Faith is not a gift from God. It is a choice that we make. Those who live according to (a) above (atheists, agnostics, etc.) are fools, and they add nothing to the world but their own production and consumption. It is sad.

"Faith is not a gift from God. It is a choice that we make"

The Bible disagrees with you here Hoss.

 

[Winco]

Faith is not a gift from God. It is a choice that we make. Those who live according to (a) above (atheists, agnostics, etc.) are fools, and they add nothing to the world but their own production and consumption. It is sad.

Why All Rational People are Believers......​

There are oodles of highly intelligent people that know how ridiculous it is to make blanket statements like
"All Rational People are Believers"

That is just NOT correct, no matter how much you spin it.

So Spin away.

 

[MarathonMike]

The True Believers of the Church of J.C. of Latter Day Saints believe that if you lead a good life, you will be "exalted," which means that you will become a "god." In fact, they believe that the God of the Bible was once a man like us, who was exalted to godhood.

Imagine you are a god and you are bored. You lived a good life here and want to create world like this one, for your entertainment. There is one factor about this world that disturbs you a bit, but it cannot be helped, and it is this: Unless you want to micromanage every little thing on your Earth, life will be unfair. Seriously unfair. That is to say, some people will be born in abject poverty, some to great wealth. Some people will be born into a miserable society where disease darkens every day, and some will be born in "Canada." Some people will live their entire lives striving to do good things, but the frustrated by things over which they have no control, and others will blunder their way into great wealth and riches. It is really unavoidable.

But you, as god, can make one decision that rectifies all that. You can (a) choose to make the entirety of human existence the time between conception and natural death, or (b) you can create a means by with the unfairness of life will be rectified by an afterlife, an afterlife where a life of virtue is rewarded and a life of sloth or evil is either extinguished or punished. That is the one big choice that you can make.

I submit that although we are not gods, we can make that choice for ourselves. We can live our lives as though (b) were the actual facts of life.

Faith is not a gift from God. It is a choice that we make. Those who live according to (a) above (atheists, agnostics, etc.) are fools, and they add nothing to the world but their own production and consumption. It is sad.

So only the Mormon splinter group "Church of J.C. of Latter Day Saints" have it right and everyone else is going to Hell? I learn something new every time I read this thread.

 

[ding]

I'm admittedly skeptical but I'd be happy to hear of a good example of your belief in the supernatural that is related to reason.

There cannot be an infinite series of causes. There must be an uncaused first cause which is eternal and unchanging. This eternal cause cannot be matter or energy as matter and energy are not unchanging. Ergo the eternal cause must be incorporeal which you would call supernatural.

 

[alang1216]

There cannot be an infinite series of causes.

How do you know it cannot be?

There must be an uncaused first cause which is eternal and unchanging.

Again, how do you know? If the something can be eternal, why can't there be and infinite series of causes?

This eternal cause cannot be matter or energy as matter and energy are not unchanging. Ergo the eternal cause must be incorporeal which you would call supernatural.

But we see matter and energy changing all the time.

 

[ding]

How do you know it cannot be?


Again, how do you know? If the something can be eternal, why can't there be and infinite series of causes?


But we see matter and energy changing all the time.

I know because the universe didn't exist and then it did exist. I know because the universe was not created from pre-existing matter or energy. The matter and energy was created from an eternal source. It's because matter and energy is not unchanging that it cannot be an eternal source. So yes, matter and energy is changing. It's not unchanging and that's why it can't be an eternal source.

But was your question to convince you of my reason or for me to state my reason?

 

[alang1216]

I know because the universe didn't exist and then it did exist. I know because the universe was not created from pre-existing matter or energy. The matter and energy was created from an eternal source. It's because matter and energy is not unchanging that it cannot be an eternal source. So yes, matter and energy is changing. It's not unchanging and that's why it can't be an eternal source.

You're making some grand assumptions. You could be right that the universe didn't exist and then it did exist or you could be wrong, that it always existed but the form of it changed at the Big Bang. I don't know which is correct but it could be the BB was like a doorway, once you leave one room for another it may be hard to see the original room if the door has closed.

But was your question to convince you of my reason or for me to state my reason?

I'm just happy you took the effort to state your reason. Thanks.

 

[ding]

You're making some grand assumptions. You could be right that the universe didn't exist and then it did exist or you could be wrong, that it always existed but the form of it changed at the Big Bang. I don't know which is correct but it could be the BB was like a doorway, once you leave one room for another it may be hard to see the original room if the door has closed.

Not really. There's tons of evidence for the universe popping into existence without being created from existing matter/energy; CMB, red shift, paired particle production, etc. So is that really a grand assumption or is it following what the evidence shows? From where I stand you are the one making grand assumptions that the universe has always existed because it's not based upon any evidence.

I'm just happy you took the effort to state your reason. Thanks.

You're welcome.

 

[Moonglow]

The True Believers of the Church of J.C. of Latter Day Saints believe that if you lead a good life, you will be "exalted," which means that you will become a "god." In fact, they believe that the God of the Bible was once a man like us, who was exalted to godhood.

Imagine you are a god and you are bored. You lived a good life here and want to create world like this one, for your entertainment. There is one factor about this world that disturbs you a bit, but it cannot be helped, and it is this: Unless you want to micromanage every little thing on your Earth, life will be unfair. Seriously unfair. That is to say, some people will be born in abject poverty, some to great wealth. Some people will be born into a miserable society where disease darkens every day, and some will be born in "Canada." Some people will live their entire lives striving to do good things, but the frustrated by things over which they have no control, and others will blunder their way into great wealth and riches. It is really unavoidable.

But you, as god, can make one decision that rectifies all that. You can (a) choose to make the entirety of human existence the time between conception and natural death, or (b) you can create a means by with the unfairness of life will be rectified by an afterlife, an afterlife where a life of virtue is rewarded and a life of sloth or evil is either extinguished or punished. That is the one big choice that you can make.

I submit that although we are not gods, we can make that choice for ourselves. We can live our lives as though (b) were the actual facts of life.

Faith is not a gift from God. It is a choice that we make. Those who live according to (a) above (atheists, agnostics, etc.) are fools, and they add nothing to the world but their own production and consumption. It is sad.

Really, some of the bestest Christians rained hell upon the Earth for there own profit.

 

[Blackrook]

Faith is the opposite of reason since no evidence is required for faith. No insult, just fact.

WRONG.

 

[alang1216]

Not really. There's tons of evidence for the universe popping into existence without being created from existing matter/energy; CMB, red shift, paired particle production, etc. So is that really a grand assumption or is it following what the evidence shows?

Certainly some happened at the BB but I don't see how your evidence tells us what came before, I only see evidence post-BB.

From where I stand you are the one making grand assumptions that the universe has always existed because it's not based upon any evidence.

I don't assume either way, I only think we don't yet have the evidence to say for sure.

You're welcome.

And thanks for being grammatically correct. A rarity nowadays.

 

[alang1216]

WRONG.

Not the most convincing argument I've ever heard.

 

[ding]

Certainly some happened at the BB but I don't see how your evidence tells us what came before, I only see evidence post-BB.

The same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[ding]

I don't assume either way, I only think we don't yet have the evidence to say for sure.

Your arguing against the universe beginning says otherwise. Your arguing we don't have enough evidence to say for sure one way or another says otherwise. We have tons of evidence that the universe began. We have no evidence the universe didn't begin. I think you need to consider the possibility that the universe beginning freaks you out because it means the universe was created.

 

[alang1216]

The same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

I don't believe we understand the physics of the appearance of the universe. There are theories but, so far as I know, no consensus. Until we can fuse the 4 forces of nature, I think the physics will continue to elude us.

 

[alang1216]

Your arguing against the universe beginning says otherwise. Your arguing we don't have enough evidence to say for sure one way or another says otherwise. We have tons of evidence that the universe began. We have no evidence the universe didn't begin.

So you believe we don't know what came before the universe because nothing did. Sounds like a God of the Gaps argument.

I think you need to consider the possibility that the universe beginning freaks you out because it means the universe was created.

A Creator would surprise me but would not freak me out, I've always said I'm agnostic on that subject. What would freak me out would be if that Creator turned out to be the God of the Bible.

 

[ding]

I don't believe we understand the physics of the appearance of the universe. There are theories but, so far as I know, no consensus. Until we can fuse the 4 forces of nature, I think the physics will continue to elude us.

Do you think they understand paired particle production? Do you think they understand the CMB? Do you think they understand red shift? Do you think they understand e=mc^2? Do you think they understand Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations? Do you think they understand the universe is expanding? Do you think they understand that if the universe is expanding then that means there was a point when all the energy in the universe had to occupy a very small space?

You are throwing out excuses for not accepting the obvious.

 

[ding]

So you believe we don't know what came before the universe because nothing did. Sounds like a God of the Gaps argument.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that that was the realm of philosophy. What we can say is that the laws of nature were in place before the universe. The laws of nature are no thing. Ergo no thing existed before the universe but that doesn't mean nothing existed before the universe because God is no thing. My best guess is that the universe exists in the mind of God and is expanding in the mind of God. As such time may be the only real thing that exists. It's mind blowing if one is a deep thinker.

 

[alang1216]

Do you think they understand paired particle production? Do you think they understand the CMB? Do you think they understand red shift? Do you think they understand e=mc^2? Do you think they understand Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations? Do you think they understand the universe is expanding? Do you think they understand that if the universe is expanding then that means there was a point when all the energy in the universe had to occupy a very small space?

You are throwing out excuses for not accepting the obvious.

Hardly obvious to me. We understand a lot about our current universe but not everything.

One of the earliest string theory notions is the "ekpyrotic" universe, which comes from the Greek word for "conflagration," or fire. In this scenario, what we know as the Big Bang was sparked by something else happening before it — the Big Bang was not a beginning, but one part of a larger process.