Zone1 Before or After

[buttercup]

You don't have a clue how many are. And in fact since most people believe in the same god you do it only makes sense that most pedophiles say they believe in your god too

prisons of full of religious people you know.

I don't know if it was intentional, but ^that^ was very deceptive and misleading.

First of all, there's a huge difference between "believing" in the sense of merely believing in the existence of God.... and believing in the sense of being saved, which is not about mere belief, but faith, trust, loving and actually following God. It means being born again - spiritual birth, which literally makes one a new creation.

The overwhelming majority of the world believes in God or a higher power. But much fewer people are in the latter category. Jesus said "enter through the narrow gate.... the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

Obviously criminals are not following Jesus. However, since prison ministry is a thing (by prison ministry I mean Christians who visit prisons and share the Gospel with prisoners with the intent to reach them for Jesus) some prisoners actually DO come to Christ while in prison... but that's after they did whatever got them there. There might be others who lie about believing in God, for their own selfish purposes, maybe to get out early, I don't know.

So anyone can say anything, that doesn't make it true. If you're not sure about someone who claims to be a believer, here is what Jesus had to say:

"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit." - Matthew 7:16-18​

 

[Foxfyre]

Is it? The demand for proof, regardless of the claim is still a logical ask, even 6000 years ago.

Logical yes. Reasonable yes. But also is the truth that nobody can provide evidence to the unbeliever that God exists. But the being that we call God can and does make his very real presence known to those willing to receive it.

Think of all the things we cannot prove. Nobody can tell you how carrots or lettuce tastes. It has to be experienced. Nobody can adequately describe to another what being in love feels like. It has to be experienced. Nobody can tell you what impressions or emotions you will feel when you first see the ocean or the Grand Canyon or some other amazing thing. It has to be experienced.

So it is with God. Nobody can fully express what a relationship with God is like. It has to be experienced.

But I can say I have never known anybody who was willing for God to make Himself known on God's terms and in God's time who were disappointed. It is only those who demand that God do it their way and as how they dictate that are convinced there is no God.

 

[Blues Man]

Is it? The demand for proof, regardless of the claim is still a logical ask, even 6000 years ago.

humans have been around a lot longer than 6000 years and religions and societies have evolved with us

And most people were illiterate and unsophisticated when events in the OT supposedly occurred and when Jesus supposedly was alive.

 

[Blues Man]

Who said anything about "when they are born"? Obviously a newborn doesn't know anything.

Did you not read the scripture I posted? If so, go back and read it, more slowly this time. It's not hard to understand, but if you don't understand it just say so, and we can go from there.

No one knows about gods until they are taught about gods.

That's the entire point of the thread

 

[Blues Man]

AA has ALWAYS called it a higher power from the very beginning. But the Lord's Prayer is usually prevalent in an AA meeting though there are forces trying to get AA to reject that which would be a huge mistake. But trust me, many have found God as they fought to get clean and sober. (No I am not alcoholic but spent many years in Al-Anon and working with/counseling family members of alcoholics which sometimes involved the alcoholic himself or herself.)

As a much younger adult, with so much of the dogma, rules and regs of religion not making sense to me, I also explored many other religious traditions. But once all the trappings of religion are stripped away I was left with one certainty. God exists and my relationship with Him is real. And Christianity as a relationship is real even when dogma and doctrines are open to debate.

The original 12 steps as they were written do not use the term higher power

A history of the 12 Steps - Addiction Treatment in Knoxville, TN - Cornerstone of Recovery

cornerstoneofrecovery.com

“I set out to draft more than six steps,” he would later write. “How many more, I did not know. I relaxed and asked for guidance. With a speed that was astonishing, considering my jangled emotions, I completed the first draft. It took perhaps half an hour. The words kept right on coming. When I reached a stopping point, I numbered the new steps. They added up to 12.”

1. “We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable.”
2. “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”
3. “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.”
4. “Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.”
5. “Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.”
6. “Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.”
7. “Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.”
8. “Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.”
9. “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”
10. “Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.”
11. “Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.”
12. “Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.”

 

[Blues Man]

I don't know if it was intentional, but ^that^ was very deceptive and misleading.

First of all, there's a huge difference between "believing" in the sense of merely believing in the existence of God.... and believing in the sense of being saved, which is not about mere belief, but faith, trust, loving and actually following God. It means being born again - spiritual birth, which literally makes one a new creation.

The overwhelming majority of the world believes in God or a higher power. But much fewer people are in the latter category. Jesus said "enter through the narrow gate.... the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

Obviously criminals are not following Jesus. However, since prison ministry is a thing (by prison ministry I mean Christians who visit prisons and share the Gospel with prisoners with the intent to reach them for Jesus) some prisoners actually DO come to Christ while in prison... but that's after they did whatever got them there. There might be others who lie about believing in God, for their own selfish purposes, maybe to get out early, I don't know.

So anyone can say anything, that doesn't make it true. If you're not sure about someone who claims to be a believer, here is what Jesus had to say:

"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit." - Matthew 7:16-18​

Lots of born again people in prisons

 

[Foxfyre]

The original 12 steps as they were written do not use the term higher power

A history of the 12 Steps - Addiction Treatment in Knoxville, TN - Cornerstone of Recovery

cornerstoneofrecovery.com

“I set out to draft more than six steps,” he would later write. “How many more, I did not know. I relaxed and asked for guidance. With a speed that was astonishing, considering my jangled emotions, I completed the first draft. It took perhaps half an hour. The words kept right on coming. When I reached a stopping point, I numbered the new steps. They added up to 12.”

1. “We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable.”
2. “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”
3. “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.”
4. “Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.”
5. “Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.”
6. “Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.”
7. “Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.”
8. “Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.”
9. “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”
10. “Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.”
11. “Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.”
12. “Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.”

Isn't it really splitting unnecessary hairs to say that "a Power greater than ourselves' is somehow different than saying "a higher power?"

 

[Foxfyre]

No one knows about gods until they are taught about gods.

That's the entire point of the thread

Then how is it that virtually every culture that has existed on Earth has recognized or adopted or developed a concept of deities? Who taught them? Where did the original idea come from?

God is. How humankind attempts to define God or deity or deities and/or respect and pay homage to same is all over the map and no doubt many if not most get it wrong. But there is no denying that humankind, as opposed to any other species, is always aware of something that we choose to call God.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

No one knows anything when they are born. A person who was never exposed to any religion whatsoever would not "know" anything about the god you worship.

Here's your problem. In one of your posts you say most people believe in the same God. Capital "g." Yes it matters

Then In This verse as well as most others, you talk about"the god you worship"

Ni, most people don't believe the God of Israel. Most people have their own "god.". You don't believe me, but you have your god. Your god is not my God.

 

[Blues Man]

Isn't it really splitting unnecessary hairs to say that "a Power greater than ourselves' is somehow different than saying "a higher power?"

You didn't read the steps that specifically mention god with a capital G did you?

 

[Leo123]

My mother was southern baptist, lived in Sweetwater, Tn and had 3 kids by a first marriage. Then moved north during WWII and married my father after he was discharged from military, he was Catholic. I guess at that time the women felt the kids would assume the roll of religion from father, so I was a Catholic and went to Catholic school until senior year. At school we had to go to church daily and then on Sunday's my mom would drop me and my brother off at church (she did not attend) and we went in one door and out the other side of church. In 9th grade had religion classes every day and it was that year a nun asked who felt like they were indoctrinated? I was the only one that raised their hand and after my answer got a swift hit on my shoulder's with a pointer.

They kicked me out at end of junior year and had to go to public for one year, but other that about 5 times since have not stepped foot into any church.

I went to Catholic school and they never made us attend church every day however, we did study religion as part of the curriculum. They did, however, have us attend church on a few 'holy days of obligation.'

 

[Blues Man]

Here's your problem. In one of your posts you say most people believe in the same God. Capital "g." Yes it matters

Then In This verse as well as most others, you talk about"the god you worship"

Ni, most people don't believe the God of Israel. Most people have their own "god.". You don't believe me, but you have your god. Your god is not my God.

Yes as far as I'm concerned the people who worship the god of the desert religions or any other god or gods are just worshiping one of the many hundreds or thousands of gods humans have worshiped in our evolution.

And I don't think I ever said most people believe in the same "God" with a capital G. I only capitalize the word god when it is the first word in a sentence.

The fact is most people in this country are Christian so it is pretty safe to assume that when I say "the god you worship" I am referring to the god all Christians worship.

Personally I think that Jews Christians and Muslims do not all worship the same god.

 

[Foxfyre]

You didn't read the steps that specifically mention god with a capital G did you?

Yes I did. I just think sometimes we make things harder than they have to be. We call God God with a capital G. But it is the same being whether God is called YHWH or "he who has no name" or by some other term. And if all of humankind throughout human history, so far as we know, however isolated or primitive, come up with a concept of a god or gods, it can easily be argued that God makes Himself known to humankind even in the most developed civilizations now.

 

[Leo123]

IMO, Belief is a human trait.

 

[buttercup]

No one knows about gods until they are taught about gods.

That's the entire point of the thread

You're still ignoring the content of post #47.

I'll wait for you to stop dodging the point in that post and actually address it.

So you don't have to go back in the thread to search for it, here it is again:

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans 1:20​

 

[buttercup]

Lots of born again people in prisons

If they came to Christ while already in prison, due to Christians who have a heart for prison ministry who visited them and actually reached them, then yes, there are some.

But again you ignored the content of that post too, because someone who is a new creation in Christ, who has a new spirit, a new heart, new desires and new priorities is not going to be committing crimes... as Jesus Himself said, "you shall know them by their fruit."

 

[Blues Man]

Yes I did. I just think sometimes we make things harder than they have to be. We call God God with a capital G. But it is the same being whether God is called YHWH or "he who has no name" or by some other term. And if all of humankind throughout human history, so far as we know, however isolated or primitive, come up with a concept of a god or gods, it can easily be argued that God makes Himself known to humankind even in the most developed civilizations now.

You might but I don't.

And in the current version of the 12 steps the word "God" is not used which was my original point

 

[Blues Man]

You're still ignoring the content of post #47.

I'll wait for you to stop dodging the point in that post and actually address it.

So you don't have to go back in the thread to search for it, here it is again:

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.​

​

Romans 1:20​

What the bible says is unreliable at best. It was compiled not to be accurate but to promote religion.

There is no impartiality at all

 

[Blues Man]

If they came to Christ while already in prison, due to Christians who have a heart for prison ministry who visited them and actually reached them, then yes, there are some.

But again you ignored the content of that post too, because someone who is a new creation in Christ, who has a new spirit, a new heart, new desires and new priorities is not going to be committing crimes... as Jesus Himself said, "you shall know them by their fruit."

What fruit are murderers and rapists producing?

 

[buttercup]

What fruit are murderers and rapists producing?

Once again you're ignoring what is posted. That's the 3rd or 4th time you've done that, I can see that it's a pattern with you.

I'll repeat. Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." So obviously, someone who is murdering, raping and committing crimes is showing by their own actions that they are not a follower of Christ, they are clearly unsaved, unregenerate. Obviously they don't care about God if they are continuously thumbing their nose at God's laws.

This isn't hard, at all. I don't know why you're trying to so hard to make it difficult, when it really is simple.