Ask the Christian...................

[Said1]

If God's will is to have a relationship with you, then he foreknew that'd happen, right?

So what it sounds like is that God's the one doing the choosing here i.e. free-will...

Once again, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - please back up your view using the BIBLE - I know, it might be foreign for you do consider that, but please do..

Ok, what if you do everything right, and then God doesn't pick you? I'm asking for your view here, so drop the "pick up your bible" gibberish pls.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

If God's will is to have a relationship with you, then he foreknew that'd happen, right?

So what it sounds like is that God's the one doing the choosing here i.e. free-will...

Once again, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - please back up your view using the BIBLE - I know, it might be foreign for you do consider that, but please do..

Because god may have known before hand doesn't mean it wasn't my choice. Try logic. I don't need the bible with you. You're a self defeating prophet, see?

 

[-Cp]

Ok, what if you do everything right, and then God doesn't pick you? I'm asking for your view here, so drop the "pick up your bible" gibberish pls.

Good question - look at the Biblical example outlined in Romans 9 - Esau and Jacob were twins inside their mothers womb, but before they were even born, God favored Jacob and "HATED" Esau? Why?

Is it possible because God forknew that Esau would be evil? Or was it a way of God accomplishing his ultimate will?

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Bolds are mine to emphasize my point..

 

[-Cp]

Because god may have known before hand doesn't mean it wasn't my choice. Try logic. I don't need the bible with you. You're a self defeating prophet, see?

It's your wreckless abandon of using the Bible which is why so many people in "the church" are jacked up...

Yeah, let's use our own "reasoning" rather than depending on the Word of God as our guide...

Surely you can't be serious....

 

[5stringJeff]

My two main points in this thread are:

1. Do people really go to hell forever? Or is it for a period of time - a way of God punishing them in a corrective manner?

2. Where in the Bible does it say man has a "free will" that can or does over-rule God's will?

Duane,

I answered your first question already, here, which you have not rebutted.

As to your second question... the doctrine of free will is the doctrine not that man can do anything he wills to do, but that man has the ultimate option of whether or not to accept salvation (through Christ) or not. There are several verses that talk about God choosing us for salvation. However, as has been stated before, humans have the ability to choose to accept the love of God. Jesus even remarked about this in a parable in Matthew 21:

“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
“ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.

Jesus ties this to the faith of "sinners" vs. the supposed righteousness of the religious folk of the day. The point is that both sons had the opportunity to respond to the father's offer.

It is obviously the will of God that none would perish, but that all would repent (2 Peter 3:9). But God cannot force anyone to repent. Repentance is a choice, voluntarily turning one's life over to the Lordship of Christ. If one was made to repent outside of one's own will, it would be called coersion. And coersion is not love, but God is love. Therefore, God forcing someone to repent would be God acting outside the realm of love, and is not something God would do.
Also, we know that God is just (see several passages, esp. Romans 3). So God has to punish sin. Now Christ is the atoning sacrifice for those who have put their faith in Him. But for those without that salvation by faith, their sins are still on their head.

 

[Said1]

Good question - look at the Biblical example outlined in Romans 9 - Esau and Jacob were twins inside their mothers womb, but before they were even born, God favored Jacob and "HATED" Esau? Why?

Is it possible because God forknew that Esau would be evil? Or was it a way of God accomplishing his ultimate will?

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Bolds are mine to emphasize my point..

I see what you're getting at, but it would appear that the twins were an example of the power of God, to show all those on earth. I can see how this is a difficult passage to argue, but I still don't agree with your view.

 

[-Cp]

I see what you're getting at, but it would appear that the twins were an example of the power of God, to show all those on earth. I can see how this is a difficult passage to argue, but I still don't agree with your view.

Well, let's examine other parts of Romans 9:

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


Sounds pretty loud and clear to me that God is in the driver's seat and not some proverbial "free will of Man" going on here..

 

[rtwngAvngr]

It's your wreckless abandon of using the Bible which is why so many people in "the church" are jacked up...

Yeah, let's use our own "reasoning" rather than depending on the Word of God as our guide...

Surely you can't be serious....

I didn't know I was such a celebrity, frankly.

People use reason to interpret the bible.

You sound like a calvinist or something. Go bang Hester Prynne.

 

[-Cp]

I didn't know I was such a celebrity, frankly.

People use reason to interpret the bible.

You sound like a calvinist or something. Go bang Hester Prynne.

I never said people don't use reason to interpet the Bible, however, you've not given one Biblical backing for any of your reasoning - that's the exact same crap people like Benny Hinn do...

 

[Said1]

Well, let's examine other parts of Romans 9:

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


Sounds pretty loud and clear to me that God is in the driver's seat and not some proverbial "free will of Man" going on here..

Seems like an explaination of why he randomly chose the twins. Sure, no one is immune to his wrath, but accepting God is part of the program, and so is living accordingly. If it wasn't, then what would be the point of living in accordance to the word of God?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I never said people don't use reason to interpet the Bible, however, you've not given one Biblical backing for any of your reasoning - that's the exact same crap people like Benny Hinn do...

I'm going with Gop jeff's cited references.

You even said that pursuing righteousness is only for the elect, ONCE THEY HAVE CHOSEN A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. Your own arguments support my case, but you're too dense to see it. You're not as cool as me, You'll never be as cool as me. It's true that you have no choice in THAT matter.

 

[Said1]

I'm going with Gop jeff's cited references.

You even said that pursuing righteousness is only for the elect, ONCE THEY HAVE CHOSEN A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. Your own arguments support my case, but you're too dense to see it. You're not as cool as me, You'll never be as cool as me. It's true that you have no choice in THAT matter.

He never did address Jeff's post, or my Genesis question.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

He never did address Jeff's post, or my Genesis question.

Hey Yeah. CP, could you also address Said1's concerns?

 

[Said1]

Hey Yeah. CP, could you also address Said1's concerns?

Could you clean out your pm box? :arabia:

 

[-Cp]

The word Jesus used (several times) that is translated "hell" is "gehenna." That was a place outside of Jerusalem, known in the OT as the Valley of Himmon, which was indeed a garbage dump. It also was constantly burning, and by using that imagery, Jesus' comtemporaries would have understood hell as a place where fire is always burning, and if sould were sentenced there, they would be constantly on fire.

As to your second question, here are some passages for you (emphasis mine):

Matthew 18:7-9 (NIV): “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

Matthew 25:41-46: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revelation 20:15: "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Matt. 5: 28, 29
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell.

Matt 18: 9
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into Hell-fire.

Mark 9: 43, 49
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Hell-fire."

These passages mean that it is better to accept Christianity, and forego some worldly privilege, than to possess all worldly advantages, and be overwhelmed in the destruction then about to come upon the Jews, when multitudes were literally cast into Gehenna. Or it may be figuratively used, as Jesus probably used it, thus: it is better to enter the Christian life destitute of some great worldly advantage, comparable to a right hand, than to live in sin, with all worldly privileges, and experience that moral death which is a Gehenna of the soul. In this sense it may be used of men now as then. But there is no reference to an after-death suffering, in any proper use of the terms.

The true idea of the language is this: Embrace the Christian life, whatever sacrifice it calls for. The latter clause carries out the idea, in speaking of THE UNDYING WORM "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Undoubtedly Jesus had reference to the language of the prophet. "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isa. 66: 23, 24.

The prophet and the Savior both referred to the overthrow of Jerusalem, though by accommodation we may apply the language generally, understanding by Hell, or Gehenna, that condition brought upon the soul in this world by sin. But the application by the prophet and the Savior was to the day then soon to come. The undying worm was in this world.

DESTROY SOUL AND BODY IN HELL
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Matt. 10: 28. "But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him which, after he hath killed, hath power to cast into Hell: yea, I say unto you, fear him." Luke 12: 5. The reader of these verses and the accompanying language, will observe that Jesus is exhorting his disciples to have entire faith in God. The most that men can do is to destroy the body, but God "is able," "hath power" to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. It is not said that God has any disposition or purpose of doing so. He is able to do it, as it is said (Matt. 3: 9) he is "able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." He never did and never will raise up children to Abraham of the stones of the street, but he is able to, just as he is able to destroy soul and body in Gehenna, while men could only destroy the body there. Fear the might power of God who could if he chose, annihilate man while the worst that men could do would be to destroy the mere animal life. It is a forcible exhortation to trust in God, and has no reference to torment after death.
Fear not those who can only torture you-man-but fear God who can annihilate (apokteino.)
1. This language was addressed by Christ to his disciples, and not to sinners.
2. It proves God's ability to annihilate (destroy) and not his purpose to torment. Donnegan defines apollumi, "to destroy utterly."
Says a writer in the Universalist Expositor, (Vol. 4): "That it was the design of Christ, to lead his disciples to reverence the surpassing power of God, which he thus illustrated, and not to make them fear an actual destruction of their souls and bodies in Gehenna, seems evident from the words that immediately follow. For he proceeds to show words that immediately follow. For he proceeds to show them that that power was constantly exerted in their behalf- not against them. See the following verses."
The word rendered soul is psuche, life, same as in verse 39, "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Also, John 13: 37, "I will lay down my life for thy sake."
The word psuche is translated "mind," "soul," "life," "hear," "minds," and "souls." "And made their minds (psuche)evil affected against the brethren."
Acts 14: 2: "Doing the will of God from the heart," (psuche). Eph. 6: 6:
"Learn of me. . . and ye shall find rest unto your souls." (psuche). Matt.
11: 29: "Let every soul (psuche) be subject unto the higher powers." Rom.
13: 1. The immortal soul is not meant, but the life. As though Jesus had
said: "Fear Not those who can only kill the body, but rather him, who if he chose could annihilate the whole being." Fear not man but God. "So much may suffice to show the admitted fact, that the destruction of soul and body was a proverbial phrase, indicating utter extinction or complete destruction."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

 

[-Cp]

One of our most cherished verses in the bible is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that who so ever believe on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

This word "perish," is the same word, apollumi in Strong's Concordance that is used for "lost," "lose," and in Luke 15: 4, where Jesus says, "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, does not leave the ninety nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it."
Lost sheep are not ones who perish, or are destroyed. The Good Shepherd came to save mankind's life, not destroy. This same word apollumi is translated destroy in Matt. 10:28. It means "destroy and "perish," but not in the sense of "annihilation;" as it is the same word that is translated lost in Matt 10: 6
When the disciples were instructed to "go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." It is the same word translated lose in
Matt. 16: 25
"Whosoever will lose his life shall find it." In Mark 2:22, it is translated, "The bottles will be marred." And in Luke 19:10, it is rendered, "lost," "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." The same root is used in the word "destruction" in 2 Thess. 1: 9, where also the word "everlasting" should be translated "age abiding."

This shows us the prevalent idea of the words "destroy" and "destruction,"
which means to reduce to ruins. A soul who is lost is one whose spiritual life is in ruins. They are a category of people Jesus came to save Luke 19:10. And this also shows us we are not to fear what man can do to us, explaining Matt. 10:28. Losing our lives through righteousness, and obedience to our Father, than yielding to man, and disobey.

Just because a sheep is destroyed, perishes, loses his life, is marred and is lost does not negate the Good shepherd from finding it, restoring it and placing it back into His fold. The inherent characteristic of our Father's love is that it is inextinguishable and inexhaustible. And should we simply be here for growing to maturity while going through trials, and thus we see our God as one keeping a creditor or debtor account with us, we might call Him "Father." Yet, in our words say He is "love," but with such a lacking in our understanding can hardly realize Him as our Abba Father in reality.

http://www.godfire.net/paris/endless.htm

 

[5stringJeff]

Says a writer in the Universalist Expositor, (Vol. 4):

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

There's the key quote. Universalism is not a Christian doctrine, because it invalidates both God's justice and God's love.