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Colin norris

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Einstein was an agnostics as I am too. Indeed I have a lot of parallels in my basic ideas with my friend Albert.

You're also a liar. You are a godbotherer like the rest.
How does lying fit with your God? Do you get special dispensation to lie to atheists.
 

zaangalewa

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You're also a liar. You are a godbotherer like the rest.
How does lying fit with your God? Do you get special dispensation to lie to atheists.

Any explanation why you say so? Because you enjoy it to break one of the 10 commandements?

 

ding

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zaangalewa

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I thought you said you were a Catholic.

Sure I am a Catholic. And Einstein was a Jew. What is your problem? That nearly no one in the modern world knows what it means to be an agnostics? I guess this problem has to do with the atheist Richard Dawkins and his wrong interpretation of agnosticism. Agnosticism is a philosophy and not a belief. Subject of this philosophy is the belief in god. In very short words: Agnosticism says it is impossible to find out whether god exists or not exists. (And agnoticism say by the way also somehow something about spirituality - but it says nothing about "gods", that's a totally other problem)

In my form to think exists specially the problem that this "solution" could be indeed true. God could indeed also in reality exist and not exist the same time - but what are we able to say about? Nothing - except we break down our own logic! The normal logic allows not to believe that A is also the opposite of A. [A] = -[A] or [A] = 1/[A] (the inverse operation of its own) is somehow the same as a division by zero. It has no clear result.
Short: God on his own is able to exist and not to exist the same time - but this we are not able to believe the same time without to produce contradictions. I see in this context that agnosticism forces us to make a decision and as well the decision to believe "god exists" and "god not exists" are clear. Sure we are able to believe in our long life sometimes this and sometimes the other side. - but we should take care never to use in our logic a mix of this components - like for example 30% god exists and 70% god not exists. We have to be clear if we love the truth. So I am a clear Catholic - in some points also a critical Catholic - but always a Catholic.

And in natural science god not exists. Per definitionem. So this system is also free from such contradictions. But all people of all religions and all forms of spiritual belief are able to be natural scientists - as long as they believe in one common truth in every science and between all sciences. But "god" is not a formula of natural science as strong as god is able to be a formula of the own heart the same time.

 
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ding

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Sure I am a Catholic. And Einstein was a Jew. What is your problem? That nearly no one in the modern world knows what it means to be an agnostics? I guess this problem has to do with the atheist Richard Dawkins and his wrong interpretation of agnosticism. Agnosticism is a philosophy and not a belief. Subject of this philosophy is the belief in god. In very short words: Agnosticism says it is impossible to find out whether god exists or not exists. (And agnoticism say by the way also somehow something about spirituality - but it says nothing about "gods", that's a totally other problem)

In my form to think exists specially the problem that this "solution" could be indeed true. God could indeed also in reality exist and not exist the same time - but what are we able to say about? Nothing - except we break down our own logic! The normal logic allows not to believe that A is also the opposite of A. [A] = -[A] or [A] = 1/[A] (the inverse operation of its own) is somehow the same as a division by zero. It has no clear result.
Short: God on his own is able to exist and not to exist the same time - but this we are not able to believe the same time without to produce contradictions. I see in this context that agnosticism forces us to make a decision and as well the decision to believe "god exists" and "god not exists" are clear. Sure we are able to believe in our long life sometimes this and sometimes the other side. - but we should take care never to use in our logic a mix of this components - like for example 30% god exists and 70% god not exists. We have to be clear if we love the truth. So I am a clear Catholic - in some points also a critical Catholic - but always a Catholic.

And in natural science god not exists. Per definitionem. So this system is also free from such contradictions. But all people of all religions and all forms of spiritual belief are able to be natural scientists - as long as they believe in one common truth in every science and between all sciences. But "god" is not a formula of natural science as strong as god is able to be a formula of the own heart the same time.

It seems odd to me that you have taken this position. Do you recite the Nicene Creed at mass on Sunday? Does it start with We believe in one God or We believe there might be one God?

The definition of believe is accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of. The definition of know is be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information. Do you or do you not have information of Christ? Do you know the Holy Spirit?

The Catechism states that God can be known through the light of human reason.


PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"
26 We begin our profession of faith by saying: "I believe" or "We believe". Before expounding the Church's faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God's commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what "to believe" means. Faith is man's response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life. Thus we shall consider first that search (Chapter One), then the divine Revelation by which God comes to meet man (Chapter Two), and finally the response of faith (Chapter Three).​
CHAPTER ONE
MAN'S CAPACITY FOR GOD​
I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD
27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:​
The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1​
28 In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:​
From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "in him we live and move and have our being."2​
29 But this "intimate and vital bond of man to God" (GS 19 § 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.4​
30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.​
You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud. Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6​
II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.​
32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.​
As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7​
And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8​
33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God.​
34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10​
35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.​
III. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12​
37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:​
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13​
38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error". 14​
 

BreezeWood

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It seems odd to me that you have taken this position. Do you recite the Nicene Creed at mass on Sunday? Does it start with We believe in one God or We believe there might be one God?

The definition of believe is accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of. The definition of know is be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information. Do you or do you not have information of Christ? Do you know the Holy Spirit?

The Catechism states that God can be known through the light of human reason.


PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"
26 We begin our profession of faith by saying: "I believe" or "We believe". Before expounding the Church's faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God's commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what "to believe" means. Faith is man's response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life. Thus we shall consider first that search (Chapter One), then the divine Revelation by which God comes to meet man (Chapter Two), and finally the response of faith (Chapter Three).​
CHAPTER ONE​
MAN'S CAPACITY FOR GOD​
I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD
27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:​
The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1​
28 In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:​
From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "in him we live and move and have our being."2​
29 But this "intimate and vital bond of man to God" (GS 19 § 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.4​
30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.​
You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud. Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6​
II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.​
32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.​
As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7​
And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8​
33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God.​
34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10​
35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.​
III. THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD ACCORDING TO THE CHURCH
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12​
37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:​
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13​
38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error". 14​
.
progress observed by the regressive is always a roadblock for their mental stability - and citing a litany of written text speaks for itself as the origin of their problem. than freedom to chose their own destiny.
 

Turtlesoup

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The Father is associated with Creator.
The Son is associated with the Word.
The Holy Spirit is (very roughly) is the conduit between Father and Son.

Please keep in mind this is roughly. We can spend three threads on this. :)
Do you understand why it sounds like the religious who believe this sound like a bunch of druggies or schizos to other people?
 

ding

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progress observed by the regressive is always a roadblock for their mental stability - and citing a litany of written text speaks for itself as the origin of their problem. than freedom to chose their own destiny.
Everyone is responsible for the choices they make. Everyone suffers the consequences of their decisions; good and bad.

Not everyone learns from them though.

Whatever faith someone chooses to practice for themselves is none of your business. Your religious intolerance is insufferable.
 

BreezeWood

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Everyone is responsible for the choices they make. Everyone suffers the consequences of their decisions; good and bad.

Not everyone learns from them though.

Whatever faith someone chooses to practice for themselves is none of your business. Your religious intolerance is insufferable.
.
Whatever faith someone chooses to practice for themselves is none of your business. Your religious intolerance is insufferable.

who said anything about religion ...

1632249548799.png


however while we are having that discussion, catholics, all christians have always intervened where individual faith is concerned. your innocence in the least seems a bit contrived, as usual - as well as - unbelievable.
 

ding

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who said anything about religion ...

View attachment 542206

however while we are having that discussion, catholics, all christians have always intervened where individual faith is concerned. your innocence in the least seems a bit contrived, as usual - as well as - unbelievable.
You did, dummy.
 

ding

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citing a litany of written text speaks for itself as the origin of their problem. than freedom to chose their own destiny.
And Jesus said...


4Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
5I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6* c Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.
 

BreezeWood

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And Jesus said...


4Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
5I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6* c Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.
... because without me you can do nothing
.
and citing a litany of written text speaks for itself as the origin of their problem. than freedom to chose their own destiny.

those are forgeries, bing - written in the 4th century - to keep you a slave through their book.

your destiny is your own whether tethered or not sad for you not to see the light.
 

ding

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those are forgeries, bing - written in the 4th century - to keep you a slave through their book.

your destiny is your own whether tethered or not sad for you not to see the light.
Jesus answered, “I told you that I AM.
 
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Meriweather

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Do you understand why it sounds like the religious who believe this sound like a bunch of druggies or schizos to other people?
God is so unlike us in many ways. Any description of God is both hard to understand and easy to misunderstand. The Bible uses three terms, and the last thing any believer of scripture wants is for anyone to conclude there are three Gods when God is One.

How do you best describe God?
 

BreezeWood

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God is so unlike us in many ways. Any description of God is both hard to understand and easy to misunderstand. The Bible uses three terms, and the last thing any believer of scripture wants is for anyone to conclude there are three Gods when God is One.

How do you best describe God?
.
the above is irrelevant - only through purity can a spirit be set free for admission to the Everlasting - sinners need not apply is the true message from the heavens. as the message of 1st century liberation theology confirmed.
 

zaangalewa

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It seems odd to me that you have taken this position.

I never took something to be at my position - I am my position.

Do you recite the Nicene Creed at mass on Sunday?

?

Does it start with We believe in one God or We believe there might be one God?

The definition of believe is accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of. The definition of know is be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information. Do you or do you not have information of Christ? Do you know the Holy Spirit?

You are one of this US-American Christians I never understood. Always looking for a way to found a new church. I am just simple a Catholic. If you like to know something about my belief read the catechism of the holy church. If you like to know something about my opinion about whatever problem then ask me.

The Catechism states that God can be known through the light of human reason.

I prefer to say "Gott ist Vernunft" instead to say "Gott ist Verstand". But I'm not able to discuss with you about such differences in the English language. I'm not sure about the intuitive background in your language when you use the word "reason". Could also mean "Gott ist der Urgrund" or something else. And to be honest: I think "human reason" is perhaps individually seen often nothing else than the worst sand ... but "god is love" is for sure always the best stand.

"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE" ...


Nigra sum, sed formosa => Schwarz bin ich, aber wunderschön => Black I am but beautiful => Black is beautiful
 
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ding

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I never took something to be at my position - I am my position.
Don't play coy, you understood what I wrote. Your beliefs are at odds with what the Catholic Church teaches.
 

zaangalewa

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Don't play coy,

?

you understood what I wrote.

I hope so. But you did not understand what I said about agnosticism - and you don't understand why you attack me.

More easy: Why do you think speak Christians since ever about their belief in god and not about their knowledge about god?


Your beliefs are at odds with what the Catholic Church teaches.

What's totally wrong in context of my philosophically plausible thoughts about the philosophy "agnosticism". I think for example women should also be bishops and not only abbesses. Even such a thought is "catholic" - but still not the mainstream within the Holy Church. Your idea catholic is only what clerics write on pieces of paper would be the same as to say nature is made in universities for natural science.

 
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ding

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?



I hope so. But you did not understand what I said about agnosticism - and you don't understand why you attack me.

More easy: Why do you think speak Christians since ever about their belief in god and not about their knowledge about god?




What's totally wrong in context of my philosophically plausible thoughts about the philosophy "agnosticism". I think for example women should also be bishops and not only abbesses. Even such a thought is "catholic" - but still not the mainstream within the Holy Church. Your idea catholic is only what clerics write on pieces of paper would be the same as to say nature is made in universities for natural science.

I didn't attack you. Pointing out your inconsistency is not an attack.

I did understand your position on agnosticism. I don't agree with your position on agnosticism and how it relates to Catholicism. Your philosophy of "agnosticism" does not mesh with your Catholic beliefs. Either you have knowledge of Christ or you don't. That is the inconsistency I am pointing out. You can't say you don't know if God exists or not and still believe that Christ is Lord and Savior. Those beliefs are mutually exclusive.
 

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Do you understand why it sounds like the religious who believe this sound like a bunch of druggies or schizos to other people?

What sounds not "schizo" for someone who suffers schizophrenia? 50% of all people worldwide suffer by the way one or more schizophrenic phases during their life. And Christians never sound like a bunch of druggies. And I ask myselve why so many US-Americans fill their language with all this stupid hate comments against people who are not like they themselve.
 

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