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zaangalewa

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You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Probably on purpose. I'm a Catholic.

God is eternal and unchanging. Ergo God has always existed. Your question should have been was god existing or not existing when he created OUR existence? The answer to that question is yes. God is eternal and unchanging. God has always existed. God IS existence. Which is why god is I AM. Which is a statement of existence.

Was it not more a "I will be who I am will be"? Then it would not be a statement of existence - like the so speaking fire which was not destroying the thorn bush. Was it real? Was it not real? ... ¿Or had it been a reference to other real thorns?
 
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ding

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Was it not more a "I will be who I am will be"? Then it would not be a statement of existence - like the so speaking fire which was not destroying the thorn bush. Was it real? Was it not real? ... ¿Or had it been a reference to other real thorns?
I read it as a statement of existence. I am.

"I will be who I am will be" is a statement of identity.

It should be self evident that God is the only reality and that our "existence" is the alternate reality so to speak. God created our existence so that we could share in his existence.
 

ding

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Aha. ... Then why do you have a problem with this what I said? ... You converted from which religion? ...



But time has a beginning - so there was once no time where no time was. And the silly Catholic teacher Augustinus said about 1700 years ago the mighty creating word of god had been a timeless word.
I am a cradle catholic. Do you understand that phrase?

I don't have a problem with what you said. I said you are making this more complicated than it need be.

Our existence (aka the universe) had a beginning. God's existence (aka existence itself) had no beginning or end. It is eternal and unchanging.

It appears that Augustinus was correct. Time has no meaning outside of our universe. The best we can say about time is that it is a convenient way to mark the expansion of the universe.
 

Colin norris

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When nothing was out of this nothing. But if it was in another way that's not really important for Christians - although it is astonishing that this 1700 year old thesis found a much more concrete physical background last century.

Concrete physical background? Are you kidding?
It has the physical attributes of pure air.
 

zaangalewa

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I read it as a statement of existence. I am.

"I will be who I am will be" is a statement of identity.

The future is not existing - only that a future will come exists.

It should be self evident that God is the only reality and that our "existence" is the alternate reality so to speak.

This is absolutelly not self-evident. Creator and creation are different things - and it's very mysterious if the creator was existing in a nothing which we are now. It's possible to see in god all existence per se - but not the existence of god - except god created himselve what also could be possible in reality - but we had nothing what could give us any plausible idea about.

If we simplfy the problem and say everything what exists are songs - so we have an outside of this songiverse which in the reality in the universe not exists - where is a song as long as it is not sung - and who sings you and me and all the myriads of other songs? And how are we able to compare our extremely fluid form to exist with any "hard matter" or "hard facts" which only reflect us and gives us new directions without any possiblity for us to know anything about?

God created our existence so that we could share in his existence.

Let me say it this way: Your problem is not not to be able to think about this what I said to you. Your problem is you do not like to think about and you like to tell others - me in thsi case - what they have to believe, because somewhere is written something on a piece of paper. But even the bible itselve is sometimes onyl a very good book to use it under a short table leg before to learn to repair the table leg and to understand what's written in the bible.

Nevertheless: Your idea - a very wide spread idea all over the world - agnosticism is only a kind of atheism is more than only totally wrong, what everyone is able to tell you who never saw god and believes in him.

And it's by the way indeed unimportant for Christians to know whether really nothing had been "before" god created all energy and matter, all time, all space, all natural laws and ... (=all what we need to exist here). But we are not able to say anything else than nothing about this. And if something looks like nothing, smells like nothing, gives not any imagination or idea or fantasy like nothing and so on and so on and so on - so why not to call it nothing? And why not to think only god was able to bring this nothing into an existence? But if someone thinks so then it's totally normal to ask "Was god existing when he made everything out of nothing"? And believe me: Such questions will not let go the world down only because you feel not comfortable with such questions.

 
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zaangalewa

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Colin norris

Concrete physical background? Are you kidding?
It has the physical attributes of pure air.

I'm not kidding. I'm a kid. For me is my dad a daily experience also everywhere in the nature - in the opus dei - all around us. Pure air has by the way an immense amount of attributes of god. Specially for one of the birds of Saint Francis. But also for you. Without this nearly nothing "pure air" you would live short and very uncomfortable.

Or with other words: In an ocean every fish is able to deny the existence of water. The real problem starts outside of the ocean.


 
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zaangalewa

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I am a cradle catholic. Do you understand that phrase?

= "geborener Katholik" in German. Then I don't understand what's wrong with you or me. You don't sound "catholic" in my ears.

I don't have a problem with what you said.

Aha. So I wasted my time.

I said you are making this more complicated than it need be.

“Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”
Albert Einstein

Our existence (aka the universe) had a beginning. God's existence (aka existence itself) had no beginning or end.

This sound perhaps plausible in your ears - but it is not plausible. What do you call "existence" when no time exists for example? When no space exists? When no energy exists? When no natural laws exist? ... Pure spirit could be a possible solution - but I don't trust in such a simple solution ... on the other side ... if we had any chance to prove whether other universes exist then we could perhaps find this universes embedded in something what we could perhaps call "pure spirit". Is nothing an element of a pure spirit?

It is eternal and unchanging.

Nothing is eternal when no time exists. Unfortunatelly many people say today "timeless" and think "eternal".

It appears that Augustinus was correct. Time has no meaning outside of our universe.

It exists no outside of the universe. And Augustinus said the word of creation had been a timeless word - and not an eternal word. (God is word)

The best we can say about time is that it is a convenient way to mark the expansion of the universe.

Perhaps you are able to say so - I am not able to say so. This all is a mystery to me - that's why I have questions. I am not allknowing.

 
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ding

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The future is not existing - only that a future will come exists.



This is absolutelly not self-evident. Creator and creation are different things - and it's very mysterious if the creator was existing in a nothing which we are now. It's possible to see in god all existence per se - but not the existence of god - except god created himselve what also could be possible in reality - but we had nothing what could give us any plausible idea about.

If we simplfy the problem and say everything what exists are songs - so we have an outside of this songiverse which in the reality in the universe not exists - where is a song as long as it is not sung - and who sings you and me and all the myriads of other songs? And how are we able to compare our extremely fluid form to exist with any "hard matter" or "hard facts" which only reflect us and gives us new directions without any possiblity for us to know anything about?



Let me say it this way: Your problem is not not to be able to think about this what I said to you. Your problem is you do not like to think about and you like to tell others - me in thsi case - what they have to believe, because somewhere is written something on a piece of paper. But even the bible itselve is sometimes onyl a very good book to use it under a short table leg before to learn to repair the table leg and to understand what's written in the bible.

Nevertheless: Your idea - a very wide spread idea all over the world - agnosticism is only a kind of atheism is more than only totally wrong, what everyone is able to tell you who never saw god and believes in him.

And it's by the way indeed unimportant for Christians to know whether really nothing had been "before" god created all energy and matter, all time, all space, all natural laws and ... (=all what we need to exist here). But we are not able to say anything else than nothing about this. And if something looks like nothing, smells like nothing, gives not any imagination or idea or fantasy like nothing and so on and so on and so on - so why not to call it nothing? And why not to think only god was able to bring this nothing into an existence? But if someone thinks so then it's totally normal to ask "Was god existing when he made everything out of nothing"? And believe me: Such questions will not let go the world down only because you feel not comfortable with such questions.

The painter is not the painting. The painter exists before the painting.
 

BreezeWood

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The painter is not the painting. The painter exists before the painting.

the subject matter is what the painter painted ... before the painting was painted.
 

zaangalewa

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The painter is not the painting. The painter exists before the painting.

But time is part of the painting.

 
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JoeB131

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My question for non-Catholics: Why not be Catholic?

WHy be any religion?

The problem with Christianity is that it's customized to appeal to certain groups of people. We'll find a version of Jesus you agree with.

The evolution of Catholicism is that it's largely a third world religion today, with a third world attitude.
 

kjw47

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Does anyone have any questions or concerns about the Catholic faith?
Since the bible condemns to the core the usage of statues, icons and graven images, then WHY does catholicism have their homes and churches filled with all 3?
 

ding

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zaangalewa

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ding

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the subject matter is what the painter painted ... before the painting was painted.
At the discretion of the painter. Prior to that the painting only existed as potential in the mind of the painter.
 

ding

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Colin norris

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no comment

Of course you have no comment . You had your religious garbage bashed to pieces the other day.

Can't you see you have nothing but faith? Why do you persist with the God garbage and produce nothing to support it? You appeared to be vaccinated with some holy water or something .
Grow up.
 
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Meriweather

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There is no need to refer to the Ten Commandments ever, for any reason, when determining or enforcing the law.
Obviously. Just like no need for me to enforce school rules at home.

The Ten Commandments are laws governing the behavior of practicing Jews and Christians on how to live in faith--and have nothing to do with anyone else. Citizens have their own--very numerous--laws, a few that lead to nothing but death and destruction. Have at it.
 
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Blues Man

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Obviously. Just like no need for me to enforce school rules at home.

The Ten Commandments are laws governing the behavior of practicing Jews and Christians on how to live in faith--and have nothing to do with anyone else. They have their own--very numerous--laws, a few that lead to nothing but death and destruction. Have at it.
Many of the things the 10 commandments address already existed as laws in societies before the bible was written

In fact not even half of the commandments actually translate into laws that exist now or even before the OT was written
 

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