Are you ashamed of your heritage?

Then why did they lose?
They lost for the same reason we would lose if we fought the Russians: they just were not ready. They had better officers, better soldiers, and more grit. What they lacked were resources and numbers, the material needed to fight a war. The North had many times more of everything. No matter how tough a people are, it doesn’t make them bulletproof. It wasn’t superior strategy that gave the North victory; it was a tidal wave of bodies that did it. That’s where Grant was different from his predecessors: he knew what his strength was, and he pressed it. He didn’t try to compete in strategy.
 

Was Secession Legal?​


After Civil War, U.S. Feared That a Court Might Undercut the Conflict's Outcome, Professor Cynthia Nicoletti Contends in New Book



Legal historian Cynthia Nicoletti’s new book says failing to try and execute Confederate President Jefferson Davis for treason left questions about secession’s legality.


October 16, 2017

Eric Williamson



Why wasn’t Confederate President Jefferson Davis ever tried for treason? According to a new book, it’s because the Union thought there was a strong possibility that his case would raise troubling questions about the constitutionality of secession, and that a possible acquittal would signal that the Union’s war effort had been unjustified.

Cynthia Nicoletti, a legal history professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, looks at the quandary in “Secession on Trial: The Treason Prosecution of Jefferson Davis,” published this month by Cambridge University Press.

Davis’ trial, which would have served as a test case for the legality of secession, was delayed for four years before ultimately being dropped. Among government officials, there was concern that the prosecution could backfire.

In the abstract, it wouldn’t have been hard to prove that Davis committed treason.

“Treason in the Constitution is levying war against the United States,” Nicoletti said. “It was incredibly easy for them to prove that Davis levied war against the U.S.; that was his job.”

But, she said, that all changes if Davis wasn’t a U.S. citizen at the time he did so. Many in the South, and even some in the North, believed states had the right to leave a union they voluntarily joined.

“Davis’ argument would go: ‘When my state, Mississippi, seceded from the Union in 1861, that removed my United States citizenship,’” Nicoletti said. “And treason is a crime of loyalty; in order to commit it, you need to be a U.S. citizen. So everybody thought at the time that this case was going to raise the question of whether secession is constitutional, and there was worry about whether or not Davis was going to be convicted.”






Official acts by the Union preceding and during the war, such as allowing for prisoner swaps and observing other rights of foreign governments under the law of nations, might have been used to bolster the argument for secession’s legitimacy.

Nicoletti said the Union had decided against a military trial for Davis, which most certainly would have led to a swift verdict against him, resulting in his execution.

But Union leaders didn’t wish to appear to strong-arm the outcome with further military force, she said. They wanted the appearance of just deliberation and an outcome that a divided country could perhaps better accept — one based firmly in the Constitution’s right to due process.

So it was decided that Davis would be tried in a regularly constituted civil court, in the place where he committed the crime.

“It turns out he committed his crime at his desk in Richmond, the capital of the Confederacy,” she said. “And prosecutors were worried they couldn’t get a jury in Richmond to convict him.”

A trial there would have given African-Americans one of the first opportunities to serve on a jury. However, there was no guarantee that residents with Confederate sympathies wouldn’t be part of the pool, even though serving required an oath of loyalty to the nation. Or that the average juror wouldn’t be convinced that secession was legal.

“Initially, the government thought, ‘We need to try him, because that will cement Union victory in the Civil War, so we’ll have something to prove the righteousness of the Union cause beyond the battlefield,’” Nicoletti said. “What happened very quickly was that the government realized, ‘Oh no, he could also be acquitted.’”

She pointed out that it would have taken only one juror to derail a guilty verdict.

For his part, Davis’ attorney, Charles O’Conor, did an effective job of stoking that fear, Nicoletti said.

“His lawyer was a New Yorker and a Southern sympathizer,” she said. “He was the main strategist. What I argue in the book is that he was actually equally worried that Davis was going to be convicted. He was worried that Davis could be hanged. But he basically bluffed. He said, ‘Yeah, I want you to try him, because I want secession to be declared legal, and I think we’re going to do it.’ He managed to raise all of these troubling possibilities.”

One of O’Conor’s main tools was the manipulation of public opinion. He collected the signatures of radical Republicans who supported the argument that secession was legal and planned to present them to the president and his Cabinet. He also coordinated the efforts of three authors who wrote books designed to stoke public sympathy for Davis and for the cause of secession.

“O’Conor engineered either the publication or the publicity for all three of those books. He was trying to create such a public atmosphere against trying Davis that the government would have no choice but to drop the case.”

Doubts about moving forward indeed led to multiple continuances.

“At every appearance O’Conor said, ‘We’re ready to try him,’ but once they were out of the courtroom, he would say, ‘I’m happy to agree to another continuance,’” Nicoletti said.

She added, “I can give you a hundred reasons why Davis was not tried, but the main reason is that he had a good lawyer.”

In the end, although Davis was an unpopular figure throughout the country, creating a martyr out of him was still a possible outcome, and not much more could have been gained, Nicoletti said. Instead, a trial could have reversed the progress made in a still-healing nation. The government decided, “Maybe no outcome was the best outcome.”

Nicoletti said she was fascinated by the unresolved questions she explores in her book, and that her approach was different than she has seen from other historians.

“I tried to do day-by-day, as much as I could, to figure out what was going on in these lawyers’ practices,” she said. “How were they reacting and how were they strategizing?”

Throughout the process, she was determined not to take a definitive stance on the secession question.

“I don’t take a position,” she said. “It’s really important for me to treat it as a question that can go either way. I think that might be surprising to a reader, because today talking about the legality of secession seems so far-fetched, but I want to introduce them to the arguments on both sides. And there wasn’t a clear answer one way or another. This is a place where the Constitution is silent.”

The Supreme Court weighed in on the secession issue in Texas v. White in 1869, declaring it unconstitutional. The case had none of the complications of Davis’ case, and it was much easier for the court to address secession in that context. Still, Nicoletti pointed out, many Americans didn’t think that Texas v. White had completely — or fairly — resolved the issue. It took another generation or two for the issue to fade from constitutional discourse.

Ultimately, she lets the reader decide how the canceled trial might have influenced history.

“I think it’s totally an open question of whether Davis would have been convicted,” Nicoletti said.

She said the issues involved are still relevant today, as people debate the idea that states such as California might have a right to leave the U.S. over disagreements about federal governance, or that the fight over the removal of Confederate monuments might have been less severe, perhaps even nonexistent, had Davis and his collaborators been executed.

You won’t find her taking sides in those debates, either. Only looking at the historical record.

Nicoletti, who earned her J.D. from Harvard Law School, also holds a B.A., M.A. and Ph.D. from the University of Virginia.

The book was written with the support of a William Nelson Cromwell Foundation Research Fellowship.

Related News​


Founded in 1819 by Thomas Jefferson, the University of Virginia School of Law is the second-oldest continuously operating law school in the nation. Consistently ranked among the top law schools, Virginia is a world-renowned training ground for distinguished lawyers and public servants, instilling in them a commitment to leadership, integrity and community service.


 
Half a million slaves were in the North at the start of the Civil War. The Emancipation Proclamation 'freed" slaves in the South but kept them enslaved in the North.

So much for moral superiority. :(
Then why did the Underground Railroad exist?

Why would slaves from the south have any motivation to escape to the north if what you’re saying was true?
 
They lost for the same reason we would lose if we fought the Russians
Oh, and you’re a Russian bot in addition to being a racist POS

Guess the two things just go together like peanut butter and jelly
 
Its debatable. They did secede.
Of course. We know they seceded.

However, no military action against them occurred in 1860 for having seceded. That only happened after they fired on Ft. Sumter several months later.
 
Kinda hard to believe you guys are arguing over a period of history well covered and documented. Try to move forward into now and the issues of now.

 
When my ancestors fought the Yankees during the War Between the States, they proved themselves to be some of the toughest people on Earth. Twenty-five percent of all military-age Southerners died or were crippled in the war. For Americans, that’s an astounding figure. If the Yankees had suffered those kinds of casualties, they would have been burning their cities. Of course, that’s opinion—there’s no way to really know—but I also have no reason to be ashamed of my ancestors. They weren’t traitors, and for the most part, they were good people doing the best they could in the world as they understood it. One reason they may have fought so desperately was because of the outcome they feared if they lost.

At the same time in Kansas, Jayhawkers were killing Southerners just for living in Missouri. There had also been numerous slave revolts in which enslaved people killed men, women, and children. In Haiti in 1804, the Black government exterminated most of the remaining French after the independence war. They spared some of the women who agreed to marry Black men. What can you call a forced marriage other than slavery? So, I have no reason to be ashamed. It seems that the left tries to make whites ashamed of being who they are, especially if they’re Southerners. I’m not ashamed, and I’m not fragile. If they want to talk about race, I’m willing to do it as honestly as I can.

Liberals also emphasize the reaction of whites after the war, but all the occupation did was reaffirm their beliefs. What would have happened if they didn’t resist? Union soldiers, even though it was not government policy, robbed, raped, and murdered Southerners, and their commanders did virtually nothing about it. On top of that, the army had a strict censorship program that prevented this information from being disseminated. If it had been published, it might have come to light that these were not large-scale abuses but rather infrequent actions by a minority of Black Union soldiers. Without reliable information, Southerners saw it as a large-scale attempt to humiliate and crush them. In my opinion, that is what led to resistance movements such as the Ku Klux Klan and Jim Crow later on. I still remember the old people talking about the need to keep the Blacks down or they’d murder us all.

Not ashamed of my heritage, it was was it was. My Great-Great Grandfather was conscripted into the Confederate army in SW Arkansas. He didn't care for the military so he and another guy deserted. Both were going to be hanged for desertion, but my G-G Grandfather escaped and hid out in the Little Missouri river bottoms until the war was over.

He ended up becoming the county treasurer after the war and owned quite a bit of land, which he farmed. He was married three times, lastly taking a wife in her 20's, when he was in his 70's. Supposedly he also got some Negro girl pregnant at some time, and sent her and the kid up North to some school.

I also had a distant relative who joined the Confederate army at the age of 15, and was never seen again. Then I also had one distant relative who was an outlaw in the early 20's, a Great Uncle who found a lynched Negro in the woods, another Great Uncle who shot and killed some Indian in a card game when he pulled a knife on him.

I also had a Great Uncle who was not only a deputy US marshal, but had a sideline as a bootlegger. Supposedly they had heard rumors that the Clyde Barrow gang was headed toward town in the early 30's, and they set up a roadblock. A car came barreling down the highway and appeared that it wasn't going to stop, and my he and the other officers opened fire on the car, killing two women inside it.

Arkansas was a pretty rough place back around the later 1800's and turn of the century.
 
Turns out it was.
The SC just made that shit up after the fact. They had to.
Their reasoning was the constitution didnt permit it. But it didnt say states couldnt secede. So they sure did have the authority to secede.
Tenth amendment : The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
 
If some northern slaveholder, let’s call him Richard, had to advise his slave, let’s call the slave “George,” that the government had ordered that George was now a free man, Richard and his lot would be confronted with the new costs of actually paying for services from George.

....

Which would no longer include housing, clothing and feeding George, so the Dick would probably come out ahead.
 
Of course. We know they seceded.

However, no military action against them occurred in 1860 for having seceded. That only happened after they fired on Ft. Sumter several months later.
I know but the legality is in question because they seceded.
 
The SC just made that shit up after the fact. They had to.
Their reasoning was the constitution didnt permit it. But it didnt say states couldnt secede. So they sure did have the authority to secede.
Tenth amendment : The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
That’s a pretty broad interpretation of the 10th amendment. You’re saying states can do whatever they want so long as it’s not explicitly prohibited in the constitution?
 
15th post
Yeah doesnt help when the president raises their tax rates by 40 percent to feed their war machine and take away theirs. Or how he was paying people with tax payer money to join their army. Or how he took all of the souths criminals and offered them freedom to fight.
Yeah, money and troop count play a vital role in war.
If he wasnt a tyrant they would have lost. Fast. The south had the money and the troops. I think it was around a 4 to 1 ratio. By the ending, the north had it 2 to 1.
All facts, but drippy poop still labeled it fake news lol :itsok:
Of course, him defending tyrants shouldnt be a surprise.
 
That’s a pretty broad interpretation of the 10th amendment. You’re saying states can do whatever they want so long as it’s not explicitly prohibited in the constitution?
Its a separation powers. It means the fed govs powers are restricted and the states can govern themselves how they see fit. As long as it doesnt go against the constitution or federal law.
Secession wasnt illegal in the constitution or federal law.
 
Back
Top Bottom