Was Reconstruction a Military Occupation?

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Sorry dumbass. It is secession.

What does 'delegate powers to' mean?

What does 'reassume powers' mean?

Why does Virginia in her ratification statement say, '...the powers granted under the constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression."?

Why does New York ratification statement say, "That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whenever it shall become necessary to their happiness; that every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not, by the said Constitution, delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the department thereof, remains to the people of the several states, or to their respective State governments, to whom they have granted the same...."

Quantrill

Those states ratified the Constitution, but did not join after the Constitution was ratified. Those statements are irrelevant to secession.

What injury or oppression is the justification for seceding? You haven't said and seceding is not mentioned there either.

Your grade on this assignment is an "F" for total failure.

 

[Quantrill]

Those states ratified the Constitution, but did not join after the Constitution was ratified. Those statements are irrelevant to secession.

What injury or oppression is the justification for seceding? You haven't said and seceding is not mentioned there either.

Your grade on this assignment is an "F" for total failure.

Again, you're full of shit. Every State had to ratify the Constitution to become part of the Union.

Virgina ratified in June 1788. Virginia became a member of the Union in June 1788.

New York ratified in July 1788. New York became a member of the Union in July 1788.

The injury or oppression is defined in the Declaration of Secession of each State seceding. Seceding is mentioned as I have said many times. The 10th Amendment. Go back and 'read'. As apparently you haven't read what has already been said.

You get an A+ for bullshit. That is especially important since you claim to have some sort of degree in 'history'.

I note you said nothing about 'resume' or 'reassume' after reading my post #(144), which I directed you to. You don't read shit. You just spout off.

Quantrill

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Again, you're full of shit. Every State had to ratify the Constitution to become part of the Union.

Virgina ratified in June 1788. Virginia became a member of the Union in June 1788.

New York ratified in July 1788. New York became a member of the Union in July 1788.

The injury or oppression is defined in the Declaration of Secession of each State seceding. Seceding is mentioned as I have said many times. The 10th Amendment. Go back and 'read'. As apparently you haven't read what has already been said.

You get an A+ for bullshit. That is especially important since you claim to have some sort of degree in 'history'.

I note you said nothing about 'resume' or 'reassume' after reading my post #(144), which I directed you to. You don't read shit. You just spout off.

Quantrill

Only the original 13 states. Maine and Kentucky did not when they joined. The states were admitted by Congress. You need a good history lesson. Go back to school.

 

[Quantrill]

Only the original 13 states. Maine and Kentucky did not when they joined. The states were admitted by Congress. You need a good history lesson. Go back to school.

Well, Virginia and New York were original 13 States. And you said, 'those States' meaning Virginia and New York, which I addressed.

Plus, Main ratified the Constitution in June 1788. Kentucky ratified the Constitution in August 1788.

They would not have become States in the Union without ratification.

Once again, you get A+ for bullshit.

Quantrill

 

[Mushroom]

Most people don’t realize this, but during the period known as Reconstruction in the South, it was effectively an occupation—an Army occupation. The first two years were a strict military occupation, and the remainder was a modified occupation.

It unquestionably was. And not unlike "Denazification" in Germany and "Demilitarization and Democratization" in Japan after WWII.

In all three cases, the victorious side held firm control over the area as it enacted reforms and guided the area until it could be trusted with having self-governance returned to it. And that is a step that must be taken, unless the end goal is a return to the former rule that had existed before.

Without such steps, then you simply see the old regime reasserting power and things are exactly the same as they were before (or worse).

Another case can be made when it comes to Yugoslavia. A nation created from the wreckage of the First World War from former parts of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. Most of the states in that created government hated each other, and were only held in check by the AH Empire. Intended to be a Constitutional Monarchy, but after assassinations the King abolished the Constitution and it became sole rule. Where much of the work of King Alexander I was simply trying to keep the nation from fragmenting again.

That lasted until 1934 when he was assassinated, and after that the nation started to tear itself apart again. Then followed by multiple invasions by Greece, Germany, Hungary, and Italy. As well as an internal civil war between Communists and Fascists. Only at the end of WWII with power being held by Marshal Josip Tito.

Who is interesting, as he was a Communist but also did not like or trust the Soviet Union. But for the rest of his life he also fought the various factions that kept trying to tear Yugoslavia apart. Which finally started to happen not long after his death.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Well, Virginia and New York were original 13 States. And you said, 'those States' meaning Virginia and New York, which I addressed.

Plus, Main ratified the Constitution in June 1788. Kentucky ratified the Constitution in August 1788.

They would not have become States in the Union without ratification.

Once again, you get A+ for bullshit.

Quantrill

States apply for statehood under the Constitution. Where do you get this ratification vote? Try reading your constitution instead of using it for toilet paper.

How​

The process of joining the United States as a state involves several steps:

1. Preparatory Steps: The territory must demonstrate sufficient population and a stable government to support statehood.
   Enabling Act: Congress passes an enabling act, which authorizes the territory to draft a state constitution and hold a constitutional convention.
   Constitution Drafting: The territory convenes a constitutional convention to finalize its state constitution, which is then ratified by voters.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=3e36...nL3dpa2kvQWRtaXNzaW9uX3RvX3RoZV9Vbmlvbg&ntb=1
2. Congressional Review: Congress reviews the state constitution and passes a resolution of admission or an "admission act" by a simple majority vote in both the House and Senate.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=3e36...nL3dpa2kvQWRtaXNzaW9uX3RvX3RoZV9Vbmlvbg&ntb=1
   Get back on Google and educate yourself, dumbass!

 

[Quantrill]

States apply for statehood under the Constitution. Where do you get this ratification vote? Try reading your constitution instead of using it for toilet paper.

How​

The process of joining the United States as a state involves several steps:

1. Preparatory Steps: The territory must demonstrate sufficient population and a stable government to support statehood.
   Enabling Act: Congress passes an enabling act, which authorizes the territory to draft a state constitution and hold a constitutional convention.
   Constitution Drafting: The territory convenes a constitutional convention to finalize its state constitution, which is then ratified by voters.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=3e36...nL3dpa2kvQWRtaXNzaW9uX3RvX3RoZV9Vbmlvbg&ntb=1
2. Congressional Review: Congress reviews the state constitution and passes a resolution of admission or an "admission act" by a simple majority vote in both the House and Senate.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=3e36...nL3dpa2kvQWRtaXNzaW9uX3RvX3RoZV9Vbmlvbg&ntb=1
   Get back on Google and educate yourself, dumbass!

No State can become part of the Union without ratification.

The Constitution is of no power over the State until it ratifies.

Once again, you get A+ for bullshit.

Quantrill

 

[Mushroom]

States apply for statehood under the Constitution. Where do you get this ratification vote? Try reading your constitution instead of using it for toilet paper.

And there is also a lot of things being completely overlooked.

None of the original 13 states needed things like Constitutions or approval, because they were the original 13 colonies. In essence, they were "Grandfathered" with whatever foundation documents were in effect at the time.

And between 1777 and 1789, the government was under the Articles of Confederation. Which actually had no procedure at all for the admittance of new states. It only had this to say for new states:

Article XI - If Canada accedes to this confederation, it will be admitted. No other colony could be admitted without the consent of nine states.

No mention at all about any kind of State Constitution.

It was only after the multiple failures of the Articles of Confederation, as well as realizing they needed to have an actual process for the admittance of new states that the requirements were finally made and placed into the Constitution itself. Even that was a bit vague, but in over 200 years an accepted procedure has evolved.

First the territory holds a Referendum and then passes a petition to Congress. Congress then passes an enabling act, authorizing the Territory to hold a Constitutional Convention which complies with the US Constitution. That Constitution has to then be approved by the people of the Territory, then submitted to Congress with an affirmation this is their new Constitution and they are qualified for Statehood.

Then Congress votes on the matter, and if approved passes that to the President. Where a proclamation is made and a new state is added.

I find it extremely silly (if not stupid) to even discuss things like "State Constitutions" at any time before 1789, as there was no "Constitution" yet. It was still essentially the 13 British Colonies, under an ad-hoc wartime government.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

No State can become part of the Union without ratification.

The Constitution is of no power over the State until it ratifies.

Once again, you get A+ for bullshit.

Quantrill

I posted the requirements, dipshit!

WHERE IS YOUR LINK TO THAT REQUIREMENT?

Put up a link or STFU!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

And there is also a lot of things being completely overlooked.

None of the original 13 states needed things like Constitutions or approval, because they were the original 13 colonies. In essence, they were "Grandfathered" with whatever foundation documents were in effect at the time.

And between 1777 and 1789, the government was under the Articles of Confederation. Which actually had no procedure at all for the admittance of new states. It only had this to say for new states:



No mention at all about any kind of State Constitution.

It was only after the multiple failures of the Articles of Confederation, as well as realizing they needed to have an actual process for the admittance of new states that the requirements were finally made and placed into the Constitution itself. Even that was a bit vague, but in over 200 years an accepted procedure has evolved.

First the territory holds a Referendum and then passes a petition to Congress. Congress then passes an enabling act, authorizing the Territory to hold a Constitutional Convention which complies with the US Constitution. That Constitution has to then be approved by the people of the Territory, then submitted to Congress with an affirmation this is their new Constitution and they are qualified for Statehood.

Then Congress votes on the matter, and if approved passes that to the President. Where a proclamation is made and a new state is added.

I find it extremely silly (if not stupid) to even discuss things like "State Constitutions" at any time before 1789, as there was no "Constitution" yet. It was still essentially the 13 British Colonies, under an ad-hoc wartime government.

You obviously have a lot of free time!

Thank you for that! I can only suffer fools like that mental midget for short answers.

 

[Mushroom]

No State can become part of the Union without ratification.

The Constitution is of no power over the State until it ratifies.

For the original 13 States, that 100% did not apply in any way, shape, or form.

That is because they were already bound together in 1777 under the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union".

Let me repeat that again. Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.

And here is the thing, that document was never cancelled. It was never dissolved, it was simply supplanted by the Constitution. All laws, procedures and offices remained in effect, unless specifically replaced by new laws and offices under the new Constitution.

In fact, many legal scholars still use this as the basis that there can be no secession from the United States because of that. The Articles of Confederation were never struck down, they were never absolved. At the time the Constitution took over it was the law of the land, and it quite clearly stated in the very opening that the Union was forever.

ARTICLES Of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New-Hampshire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina and Georgia.

So any discussion at all over "State Constitutions" is ultimately silly when discussing the original 13 states. Quite literally a case of mental masturbation.

 

[Quantrill]

I posted the requirements, dipshit!

WHERE IS YOUR LINK TO THAT REQUIREMENT?

Put up a link or STFU!

I don't care what you posted. As I said, no state can become part of the United States without ratification of the Constitution.

Show me a state that has become a member of the United States that has not ratified the Constitution.

If they do not ratify the Constitution, then they are not delegating certain powers over to the Federal govt.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

For the original 13 States, that 100% did not apply in any way, shape, or form.

That is because they were already bound together in 1777 under the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union".

Let me repeat that again. Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.

And here is the thing, that document was never cancelled. It was never dissolved, it was simply supplanted by the Constitution. All laws, procedures and offices remained in effect, unless specifically replaced by new laws and offices under the new Constitution.

In fact, many legal scholars still use this as the basis that there can be no secession from the United States because of that. The Articles of Confederation were never struck down, they were never absolved. At the time the Constitution took over it was the law of the land, and it quite clearly stated in the very opening that the Union was forever.



So any discussion at all over "State Constitutions" is ultimately silly when discussing the original 13 states. Quite literally a case of mental masturbation.

The Articles of Confederation were ratified by all the original colonies or States.

That 'Perpetual Union' got thrown out the window in 1787. Meaning the Union is not so 'perpetual' after all.

Quantrill

 

[Mushroom]

You obviously have a lot of free time!

Thank you for that! I can only suffer fools like that mental midget for short answers.

Well, one of the things that long fascinated me since around 45 years ago when I first learned of the Articles of Confederation was how exactly that government worked. And in truth, it barely worked. -laugh-

But one of the interesting things I always thought is how unique the replacement happened. Very rarely in history has a government voluntarily completely changed itself. Not through some revolution, not through invasion and a new system being forced upon them, not through a civil war. They simply realized it was not working, and decided to replace it.

But not throw out the system that was then in place. When the Constitution came into effect, the previous Articles were not just thrown away like it never happened. All laws in place then remained in place. All states remained as states. All positions and offices remained in place, unless a new one supplanted it. The President of the United States in Congress became President of the United States, after one was elected. And the old position essentially morphed into the Speaker of the House.

That is why the Line of Succession is if the President dies, resigns or is impeached the next in line is the Vice President. But the next in line is the Speaker of the House. That is recognizing the position of the President of the single house Congress under the Articles of Confederation. Then after the Speaker of the House, it's the President pro tempore of the United States Senate. Only after that does it descend to Cabinet positions.

And even that is typical of the founders of the nation. Even as they were breaking away from England, they did not just throw away the "English Law" they had been living under. And huge segments of US Law to this day can still be traced back to the original English Law they were under when the Revolution started.

And one of the final straws that led to the replacement was the issue over Kentucky. It wanted to become a state, but the requirements for admission were so vague and they were already working on the Constitution so essentially they decided to dedicate a clause in the new framework just to deal with that.

And the stickler was not over a State Constitution at all, but that under the "Perpetual Union" clause. Could a state voluntarily chose to give up part of their own territory and allow itself to be broken into a new state? Did that not by definition imply that the union was not "perpetual"? Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1 resolved that. It could be done, with the consent of both the state giving up the territory as well as the consent of the proposed new territory. But it could not be done by force on either side.

And in the over two centuries since, that has only been allowed once, again in Virginia. As that state was in Rebellion, so when West Virginia then seceded from Virginia, it was determined that as they were in revolt at the time they had given up any say if the people in that area of the state did not want to leave the Union.

 

[Mushroom]

The Articles of Confederation were ratified by all the original colonies or States.

Where were the mandates for their own State Constitutions?

That 'Perpetual Union' got thrown out the window in 1787. Meaning the Union is not so 'perpetual' after all.

I think over 160 years ago we had a war that indeed determined that the Union was Perpetual.

Did you somehow sleep through all of your history classes over the American Civil War?

And it was not "thrown out the window", the framework was superseded by a new document. The Articles were never dissolved, they were never thrown out. Even today in the US they live under it, under the document that expanded and replaced segments called the Constitution.

But please, give us a document that states that it was overturned.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I don't care what you posted. As I said, no state can become part of the United States without ratification of the Constitution.

Show me a state that has become a member of the United States that has not ratified the Constitution.

If they do not ratify the Constitution, then they are not delegating certain powers over to the Federal govt.

Quantrill

Every state after the first 13 colonies do not ******* ratify the constitution. When are you going to learn to read?

If they did give me the date their state constitutional convention ratified the US constitution after ratifying their own. Any state other than the original 13 colonies would do. You can't ******* do it, so tuck your tail, admit you are stupid, and leave the rest of the intelligent world out of your drug or alcohol induced fantasies!

 

[Quantrill]

Every state after the first 13 colonies do not ******* ratify the constitution. When are you going to learn to read?

If they did give me the date their state constitutional convention ratified the US constitution after ratifying their own. Any state other than the original 13 colonies would do. You can't ******* do it, so tuck your tail, admit you are stupid, and leave the rest of the intelligent world out of your drug or alcohol induced fantasies!

No, tell me every state that did not ratify the Constitution in order to enter the U.S. You have given none.

Tell me of any State that can enter and be a member of the Union without ratification. You have given none.

Then google this. "Can any State become a member of the United States without ratifying the Constitution?" What does it tell you?"

Ratification of the Constitution is the act thereby powers of the State are delegated to the Federal Govt. If there is no ratification, then no powers are delegated to the Federal govt. and they are not part of the union.

Once again, you get A+ for bullshit. Whatever degree you got in history, you need to wipe your ass with it and then brush your teeth with it.

Quantrill

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

No, tell me every state that did not ratify the Constitution in order to enter the U.S. You have given none.

Tell me of any State that can enter and be a member of the Union without ratification. You have given none.

Then google this. "Can any State become a member of the United States without ratifying the Constitution?" What does it tell you?"

Ratification of the Constitution is the act thereby powers of the State are delegated to the Federal Govt. If there is no ratification, then no powers are delegated to the Federal govt. and they are not part of the union.

Once again, you get A+ for bullshit. Whatever degree you got in history, you need to wipe your ass with it and then brush your teeth with it.

Quantrill

Because there are none past the original 13 states under the Constitution. You have been told now by yours truly and Mushroom what the procedure is. What you just posted is a bald-faced lie!

Where are the dates of those ratifications, say for Arizona? You can't answer because they don't ratify the ******* Constitution, you incredible dumbass!

Welcome to my mental ignore list. You can respond to me all day long and I will never answer you directly except to mock your stupidity!

I am beginning to believe you must have sustained some traumatic brain injury or mental retardation because no one is that lacking in intelligence willfully!

 

[Quantrill]

Where were the mandates for their own State Constitutions?



I think over 160 years ago we had a war that indeed determined that the Union was Perpetual.

Did you somehow sleep through all of your history classes over the American Civil War?

And it was not "thrown out the window", the framework was superseded by a new document. The Articles were never dissolved, they were never thrown out. Even today in the US they live under it, under the document that expanded and replaced segments called the Constitution.

But please, give us a document that states that it was overturned.

Delaware ratified Dec. 7, 1787. New Jersey ratified Dec. 12, 1787, Penn. ratified Dec. 18, 1787, Conn. ratified June 9, 1788, Mass. ratified Feb. 6, 1788, Rhode Is. ratified April 28, 1788, Maryland ratified May 12, 1788, South Carolina ratified June 24, 1788, Virginia ratified June 25, 1788, Maine ratified in 1788, and Kentucky ratified in 1788.

Well, you think wrong. The Articles of Confederation declared the Union 'perpetual'. But that was shown to be bullshit when in 1787 they tossed that out the window. And, they were smart enough this time around to not mention any 'perpetual union' since they knew they just tossed the other one.

Quantrill

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Delaware ratified Dec. 7, 1787. New Jersey ratified Dec. 12, 1787, Penn. ratified Dec. 18, 1787, Conn. ratified June 9, 1788, Mass. ratified Feb. 6, 1788, Rhode Is. ratified April 28, 1788, Maryland ratified May 12, 1788, South Carolina ratified June 24, 1788, Virginia ratified June 25, 1788, Maine ratified in 1788, and Kentucky ratified in 1788.

Well, you think wrong. The Articles of Confederation declared the Union 'perpetual'. But that was shown to be bullshit when in 1787 they tossed that out the window. And, they were smart enough this time around to not mention any 'perpetual union' since they knew they just tossed the other one.

Quantrill

What date and what was the vote of the Kentucky state legislature that didn't even exist until Kentucky became a state? Kentucky was a part of Virginia at the time, so they technically already ratified the Constitution. Maine was a part of Massachusetts, so they had technically already ratified it to. There is so much of this topic that you are completely wrong on, and you can't help proving yourself wrong!