Apologies in advance to Christians, but to Jews: Would Jews have been better off if Jesus hadn’t been born?

[Meriweather]

Who’s blaming Jesus for failings? The point is that some very negative comments about Jews were written in the NT. Particularly John - thr most antisemitic gospel of the four. That it was written after anyone who knew Jesus had died allowed for lots of embellishment, and also lots of hostility for Jews who refused to abandon Judaism’s teachings.

Yeah, the Hebrew Bible never said a word against Gentiles or about being happy to bash the babies of their enemies against rocks.

Facts: Jesus and John were Jews. Just like every other community, not all in one community agree on everything. Disagreements among people of the same tribe does not amount to antisemitism--otherwise Isaiah and Jeremiah might be called Judaism's top anti-Semites. John's Gospel has praise for Jews as well, another argument against antisemitism.

I do agree that non-Jewish people of later times who used John's words to support their own evil against Jews were/are anti-Semitic.

 

[Meriweather]

As far as it being a sickening question, I knew that some Christians would find it offensive, and thus apologized in advance, but I still think it’s a fair question. NONE of what has happened to the Jews - the persecution, the expulsions, the mass murders - is Jesus’ fault. It’s because Christians blamed Jews for his murder, and that is the underlying reason for so much antisemitism today. At least in my school days, and those of my parents, it was commonplace to be called “Christ killers!” whenever an argument ensued.

Did adults call you or other adults "Christ killers"? Or was this childhood taunting based on childhood silliness? I never heard such a thing, nor did my parents, or even my grandparents. On the other hand, we were all small town people, and in another post you indicate you lived in the city?

In my family, we all understood that Jesus died for our sins, that he willingly gave up his life for our sake, and for heavens sake, it was the Romans who sentenced him to death and killed him. I can understand how children may not have learned that yet, and that in very old times people were uneducated, but I wonder how wide-spread that taunt truly was.

Probably about as widespread as Christians worshiping idols and several Gods? Is that considered "Anti-Christian"?

 

[Meriweather]

I knew that some Christians would find it offensive, and thus apologized in advance

I would find it offensive if I were an atheist and since there have always been atheists in my family, I can state that categorically. I come from a large family, and I find it as horrifying as I would if someone were to suggest maybe it would have been better if a sibling had not been born. After all, there were enough of us already.

I knew exactly what you meant which is why I know you should have started with a better thesis statement. (Now speaking as an English teacher. )

You meant to offend, and I was fine with that--it was the "apology" I found unbearably insulting.

 

[Lisa558]

Did adults call you or other adults "Christ killers"? Or was this childhood taunting based on childhood silliness? I never heard such a thing, nor did my parents, or even my grandparents. On the other hand, we were all small town people, and in another post you indicate you lived in the city?

In my family, we all understood that Jesus died for our sins, that he willingly gave up his life for our sake, and for heavens sake, it was the Romans who sentenced him to death and killed him. I can understand how children may not have learned that yet, and that in very old times people were uneducated, but I wonder how wide-spread that taunt truly was.

Probably about as widespread as Christians worshiping idols and several Gods? Is that considered "Anti-Christian"?

It was during late childhood and adolescence (9ish to 16ish) that these kids called ”Christ Killers”. But they had to learn the Jew-hate somewhere, and in each instance in which it occurred with me it was from kids who were either currently in Catholic School or has been during the primary years. One kid was also influenced by her father, as she told me I couldn’t come to her birthday party because he “didn’t allow Jews in the house.” (Yup….those were the exact words. So,e things you don’t forget.)

Yes, I lived in a liberal and large Northeast city.

 

[Lisa558]

I would find it offensive if I were an atheist and since there have always been atheists in my family, I can state that categorically. I come from a large family, and I find it as horrifying as I would if someone were to suggest maybe it would have been better if a sibling had not been born. After all, there were enough of us already.

I knew exactly what you meant which is why I know you should have started with a better thesis statement. (Now speaking as an English teacher. )

You meant to offend, and I was fine with that--it was the "apology" I found unbearably insulting.

Interesting. Maybe I shouldn’t have apologized.

And I never would have taken a risk with a topic that i knew some would find offensive. But given the absolutely despicable and numerous Jew-hating comments in this forum, I decided I shouldn’t worry about offending some people with what is a very valid question. But I couldn’t QUITE drop my sensitivity, so I added in the apology.

But the point wasn’t specifically to offend. Even suggesting that is a nasty slap from you, and clearly you intended to offend ME. That said, and given the antisemitic content contained in the NT, it makes sense to question the likelihood that if the NT hadn’t been written, as it would NOT have been had the Romans not crucified Jesus, Jews would have been better off.

In retrospect, a better question might have been “would it have been better for Jews if the Romans never killed Jesus?”

 

[Meriweather]

and clearly you intended to offend ME.

Apparently it wasn't clear at all, unless pointing out a simple fact of what is a non-apology offends you. A comparison:

I offended you, and I am sincerely sorry. Versus, "If you were offended, I apologize." Or, "I am going to offend some people, but I am sorry."

Back on track: Some Jews have a policy of not wanting to share their beliefs with others; some downright adamant about it. It took only one friendly Jew (an atheist) who was able to guide me through Jewish heritage and where I might find really good material on the Hebrew language, culture, and history. I will be ever grateful to Abe for that.

I get it. Many Jews decline to discuss their faith because people (mainly Christians) don't listen. Christians have a reputation for really just wanting to talk about their own faith. Some Jews don't want to get into a discussion of Hebrew Scriptures with those who have little knowledge and worse understanding of them.

Growing up, I had friends whose parents warned their children about having a Catholic friend. Or a Mormon friend. We paid no attention, and it has never occurred to me that now that I am an adult I should be offended or should have been offended back then.

What does occur to me: People find God through Judaism, all sects of Christianity, Islam, etc. And I am very interested in how God reaches them now, and how he reached them in the past. I love those types of discussions, they bring joy. Discussions that descend into what is wrong with everyone else...no joy.

 

[Clyde 154]

First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?

The Jews were killing righteous men long before Jesus came along. Because of their sins against God they had already lost the land promised by God to Abraham and had all their tribes destroyed except a remnant that remained during the time of Jesus.

God warned them if they (He would destroy them as a nation -- Lev. 26:2-39) continued to sin against His laws and Isarel would never be made whole again, the time period of the Christ was comparing Isarel as a Broken Potters jar (Jer. 19:7-13).....pieced back together again with glue, never to be the same and God threatened them (Matt. 23:33-39) that they would be punished in that very generation and lose Jerusalem, the temple and Israel before the end of the 1st century........Biblical Israel has not existed upon earth (because of the sins of the Jews) for over 2000 years. The last straw for the Jews? The Killings of John the Baptist and God's only begotten son, Jesus the Christ of prohecy.

 

[Lisa558]

The Jews were killing righteous men long before Jesus came along. Because of their sins against God they had already lost the land promised by God to Abraham and had all their tribes destroyed except a remnant that remained during the time of Jesus.

God warned them if they (He would destroy them as a nation -- Lev. 26:2-39) continued to sin against His laws and Isarel would never be made whole again, the time period of the Christ was comparing Isarel as a Broken Potters jar (Jer. 19:7-13).....pieced back together again with glue, never to be the same and God threatened them (Matt. 23:33-39) that they would be punished in that very generation and lose Jerusalem, the temple and Israel before the end of the 1st century........Biblical Israel has not existed upon earth (because of the sins of the Jews) for over 2000 years. The last straw for the Jews? The Killings of John the Baptist and God's only begotten son, Jesus the Christ of prohecy.

Thank you for demonstrating the hostility and hate toward Jews from Christians, and why it would might have been had Jesus never been born, or at least not killed.

I did not start this thread to hear about G-d’s “only begotten son” and another repeat of the lie that Jews killed him. THAT is why antisemites like you exist.…because you believe that.

 

[Clyde 154]

Thank you for demonstrating the hostility and hate toward Jews from Christians, and why it would might have been had Jesus never been born, or at least not killed.

I did not start this thread to hear about G-d’s “only begotten son” and another repeat of the lie that Jews killed him. THAT is why antisemites like you exist.…because you believe that.

Yeah........presenting book, chapter and verse is a demonstration of HATE. Only to a real bigot, a leftist white apologist. What part of (Lev. 26, Jer. 19) and Jesus directly referencing the Book of Daniel (Matt. 23, 24) did you fail to comprehend?

You want to address a topic.......a topic where the only real doctrine can be found (the Holy Scriptures) and charge someone with hate because they presented the book, chapter and verse of that recorded history?

SNOW FLAKE: Someone who is easily offended when confronted with truth.

 

[Lisa558]

Yeah........presenting book, chapter and verse is a demonstration of HATE. Only to a real bigot. What part of (Lev. 26, Jer. 19) and Jesus directly referencing the Book of Daniel (Matt. 23, 24) did you fail to comprehend?

G-d had high expectations for the Jews. Unfortunately, antisemites like you twist that around, add in the Jew-hating rhetoric of the NT, and spew your Jew-hate.

I hope you get what you deserve.

 

[Clyde 154]

G-d had high expectations for the Jews. Unfortunately, antisemites like you twist that around, add in the Jew-hating rhetoric of the NT, and spew your Jew-hate.

I hope you get what you deserve.

Yeah.........it was Gentile antisemites that caused the Jews to sin against the Laws of God before Jesus was even born. Again, what part of the Old Testament do you fail to comprehend, Snowflake?

FYI: The Holy Scriptures read the same for both you and I. There was no ambiguity presented in Book, Chapter and Verse.

You want to see real hate? Look in the mirror. You offer a personal opinion and back it up with nothing but subjective ad hominem rhetoric and its others that twist things around when the actual content of the scriptures are presented?

If you want to know the truth, the good, the bad and the ugly to Jewish history.......read the Bible. Do not attack with subjective opinions that are backed up by nothing except your imagination.

 

[Lisa558]

Yeah.........it was Gentile antisemites that caused the Jews to sin against the Laws of God before Jesus was even born. Again, what part of the Old Testament do you fail to comprehend, Snowflake?

Buh-bye, you disgusting Jew-hater. Go pick on some blacks, now. I can’t imagine an antisemite like you wouldn’t also be a racist.

 

[Clyde 154]

Buh-bye, you disgusting Jew-hater. Go pick on some blacks, now. I can’t imagine an antisemite like you wouldn’t also be a racist.

Why do you not want to discuss the Book, Chapter and Verses presented? Yeah......."imagine" Sponge Bob", that's all you have presented rhetoric based upon your lame imagination.
Yeah.......no HATE here. And why is it that's always a Liberal that attempts to race bait? Now I hate blacks......my moms would be surprised about that one. When cornered a liberals only defense is the ole RACE, ANTI-FEMALE, BIGOT.....card.

Do you even know my race? Of course not. Because unlike others on this board......I do present my family history to the world wide web and then bitch about someone invading my privacy, or join some board (a private board) and bitch about free speech when you just gave your rights of speech to some moderator

 

[AMart]

Would Jews have been better off if Jesus hadn’t been born? Who asks such dumb questions? Jews have flourished in Christian countries and have become the most wealthy subset on Earth. If they didn't genocide Christians in Russia, and start commie revolutions in multiple Euro countries there would have never even been a Hitler.​

 

[Lisa558]

Would Jews have been better off if Jesus hadn’t been born? Who asks such dumb questions? Jews have flourished in Christian countries and have become the most wealthy subset on Earth. If they didn't genocide Christians in Russia, and start commie revolutions in multiple Euro countries there would have never even been a Hitler.​

Wow. The antisemitism Is really getting strong. Hitler tried to genocide the Jews, and this antisemite blames the Jew for it.

I hope you get what you deserve too.

 

[Circe]

No, there was the Babylonian Captivity, and then there was the war with Rome, and Masada, and Jews got in as much trouble in Rome itself as Christians did: they were periodically banned.

I think Jews have been trouble-makers (non-cooperators with imperial rule, anyway!) since the beginning, and it really didn't matter what the dominant religion was. Remember that a lot of the problem in Jerusalem was that Jews would not worship the EMPEROR ---- had nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[Clyde 154]

Wow. The antisemitism Is really getting strong. Hitler tried to genocide the Jews, and this antisemite blames the Jew for it.

I hope you get what you deserve too.

What's your point? The Catholic's attempted to wipe out the Muslims.......and Muslims have attempted to wipe out all the infidels at the point of a sword. What's wrong in presenting history actual?

The real point there is there is no Doctrine found in the New Testament that is based upon hate or killing those who do not agree with you. If it exists PRESENT the book, chapter and verse. As far as history goes, if you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Even the Jewish history found in the Holy Scriptures. They are respected today, not because of the OLD LAW that was nailed to the cross of the Christ.......but because they were our schoolmasters to help us avoid the same mistakes made by the Jews recorded in the Holy Scriptures. (Romans 15:4, 1 Cor. 10:11)

 

[Lisa558]

No, there was the Babylonian Captivity, and then there was the war with Rome, and Masada, and Jews got in as much trouble in Rome itself as Christians did: they were periodically banned.

I think Jews have been trouble-makers (non-cooperators with imperial rule, anyway!) since the beginning, and it really didn't matter what the dominant religion was. Remember that a lot of the problem in Jerusalem was that Jews would not worship the EMPEROR ---- had nothing to do with Christianity.

I see you have hostility toward Jews too. Those “troublemakers” have contributed fsr beyond their numbers toward scientific, medical, and technological advances. The would would be a much worse place without them, but I don’t expect you to acknowledge that.

Amazing that we have the entire country upside down due to “systemic racism” against blacks when the animus towards Jews is much worse.

 

[AMart]

Wow. The antisemitism Is really getting strong. Hitler tried to genocide the Jews, and this antisemite blames the Jew for it.

I hope you get what you deserve too.

Lisa everyone knows you started a troll thread so you could call everyone antisemite (((who))) invented that word. Now not many know that the Bolsheviks hated Christians and mass murdered the Russian Christian Clergy, tortured them in all kinds of Satanic ways.

 

[Lisa558]

What's your point? The Catholic's attempted to wipe out the Muslims.......and Muslims have attempted to wipe out all the infidels at the point of a sword. What's wrong in presenting history actual?

The real point there is there is no Doctrine found in the New Testament that is based upon hate or killing those who do not agree with you. If it exists PRESENT the book, chapter and verse. As far as history goes, if you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Even the Jewish history found in the Holy Scriptures. They are respected today, not because of the OLD LAW that was nailed to the cross of the Christ.......but because they were our schoolmasters to help us avoid the same mistakes made by the Jews recorded in the Holy Scriptures. (Romans 15:4, 1 Cor. 10:11)

So according to the “Holy Scriptures,” aka the antisemitic New Testament, Jews did all sorts of wrong snit so the superior Christians would know how to brhave?

OK. I have the answer to the question I raised in the OP. No Jesus would mean no anti-Jew NT, and Jews indeed would have been better off.

But alas, we can’t go back and change history.