Apologies in advance to Christians, but to Jews: Would Jews have been better off if Jesus hadn’t been born?

[Man of Ethics]

What makes you think most people function "normally"?

According to the data I read only 20% of American adults have mental disability. Thus 80% are normal people.

 

[Lisa558]

May G-d bless you!

Thank you!

 

[hobelim]

I'm still not sure why Jews haven't accepted that Jesus as their messiah, foretold by their scriptures.

Simple. First century Jewish expectations for the Messiah then were about as irrational as Christian expectations for the second coming are now. God farting fiery angels out of the sky, an invincible warrior king, destruction of their enemies, the end of time, cosmic catastrophe, etc.

Jewish people expected and still expect the messiah to rebuild the temple based on the scripture that says that the messiah will lead people to the 'sanctuary of God' which has nothing whatever to do with a fancy slaughterhouse made by human hands. It's just another way of saying that the messiah will lead people back to a blessed life under divine providence. (the sanctuary of God)

Ironically, Christians as well do not realize that Jesus already lead people to the sanctuary of God by teaching the only right way to understand and comply with the law that fulfills the promise of eternal life and abundant blessings while living in the kingdom of heaven, here and now on earth.

They 'believe' the law is obsolete, Jesus is one third coequal part of an unequalled God, (WTF) and you must celebrate his death and eat a matzo to have eternal life and sin with impunity. ugh

Aside from all that the subject of the expected resurrection of the dead is not and never was about the resumption of a former existence of people long dead, it is about entry into a new existence of people still on earth, whether living or dead.

Some will rise to eternal life, some will rise only to hear their doom.

 

[Lisa558]

Simple. First century Jewish expectations for the Messiah then were about as irrational as Christian expectations for the second coming are now. God farting fiery angels out of the sky, an invincible warrior king, destruction of their enemies, the end of time, cosmic catastrophe, etc.

Jewish people expected and still expect the messiah to rebuild the temple based on the scripture that says that the messiah will lead people to the 'sanctuary of God' which has nothing whatever to do with a fancy slaughterhouse made by human hands. It's just another way of saying that the messiah will lead people back to a blessed life under divine providence. (the sanctuary of God)

Ironically, Christians as well do not realize that Jesus already lead people to the sanctuary of God by teaching the only right way to understand and comply with the law that fulfills the promise of eternal life and abundant blessings while living in the kingdom of heaven, here and now on earth.

They 'believe' the law is obsolete, Jesus is one third coequal part of an unequalled God, (WTF) and you must celebrate his death and eat a matzo to have eternal life and sin with impunity. ugh

Aside from all that the subject of the expected resurrection of the dead is not and never was about the resumption of a former existence of people long dead, it is about entry into a new existence of people still on earth, whether living or dead.

Some will rise to eternal life, some will rise only to hear their doom.

I have no worries. If there’s a heaven, I’m pretty sure I’m going. And that’s because what counts in this world is being a kind, decent person - not whether someone believes that a man who lived 2000 years ago is a deity, or not.

Belief in Jesus is irrelevant.

 

[HaShev]

I have no worries. If there’s a heaven, I’m pretty sure I’m going. And that’s because what counts in this world is being a kind, decent person - not whether someone believes that a man who lived 2000 years ago is a deity, or not.

Belief in Jesus is irrelevant.

And that concept of theirs reveals a giant megalomaniac, not a servant, but one served.

 

[Lisa558]

And that concept of theirs reveals a giant megalomaniac, not a servant, but one served.

Here’s a point of discussion: WAS Jesus really a megalomaniac, saying he was the son of G-d, and the only way to Heaven was through him? It does sound arrogant, to say the least, and it’s nothing a Jew would ever say. I seriously doubt he ever said that. He just taught Jewish values, that’s all.

 

[HaShev]

Here’s a point of discussion: WAS Jesus really a megalomaniac, saying he was the son of G-d, and the only way to Heaven was through him? It does sound arrogant, to say the least, and it’s nothing a Jew would ever say. I seriously doubt he ever said that. He just taught Jewish values, that’s all.

As the Harvest god Baal was losing more and more favor, with the extended droughts and barren regions, they simply needed a new (mask) image (in likeness to the people they ruled over) to subvert them to Rome's authority.
An image of a man Rome could speak through and be authority and collect taxes (tithes) over the minions who bowed to that image.
With the tax revolts and Revolts against Rome's rule, this allowed Rome's political authority to stick it's foot in many kingdoms (that it ought not be), under the guise of their religious authority through this one world religion.
This is called the 2horned (power) system, and why it was symbolised by the 2 horned scarlet(color of Rome's army) Devil (power of decay and destruction).
If you don't devote yourself to this image, then they can't use it to speak through, collect taxes through, sneak into kingdoms unnoticed through, convert the world to their one world religion that they are benefactors of.

 

[surada]

As the Harvest god Baal was losing more and more favor, with the extended droughts and barren regions, they simply needed a new (mask) image (in likeness to the people they ruled over) to subvert them to Rome's authority.
An image of a man Rome could speak through and be authority and collect taxes (tithes) over the minions who bowed to that image.
With the tax revolts and Revolts against Rome's rule, this allowed Rome's political authority to stick it's foot in many kingdoms (that it ought not be), under the guise of their religious authority through this one world religion.
This is called the 2horned (power) system, and why it was symbolised by the 2 horned scarlet(color of Rome's army) Devil (power of decay and destruction).
If you don't devote yourself to this image, then they can't use it to speak through, collect taxes through, sneak into kingdoms unnoticed through, convert the world to their one world religion that they are benefactors of.

The Asherah Baal pole was in Jerusalem long before the birth of Christ.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

They 'believe' the law is obsolete, Jesus is one third coequal part of an unequalled God, (WTF) and you must celebrate his death and eat a matzo to have eternal life and sin with impunity. ugh

From an outside perspective, this is no less ridiculous than the stuff you believe. Just FYI.

 

[ding]

They 'believe' the law is obsolete, Jesus is one third coequal part of an unequalled God, (WTF) and you must celebrate his death and eat a matzo to have eternal life and sin with impunity. ugh

Donall and Conall respond...



The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason but can only be understood through faith and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian Creed; which states that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity; neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance; that we are compelled by the Christian Truth that we are to confess that each distinct person is God and Lord; and that the deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is one; equal in glory and majesty.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason

Haha. Good stuff

 

[ding]

Haha. Good stuff

It's great stuff but you left off... but can only be understood through faith and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian Creed; which states that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity; neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance; that we are compelled by the Christian Truth that we are to confess that each distinct person is God and Lord; and that the deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is one; equal in glory and majesty.

 

[Lisa558]

WTH? I asked Jews if they thought Jews would have been better off if Jesus had never been born, and now we have a bunch of intolerant Christians hijacking the thread and weighing in to say that only Christians can get to Heaven, and now Jesus is a deity, and etc., etc.

LOOK. We know you guys think that, but that isn’t the topic. All you’re doing is demonstrating the very arrogance of Christians toward others, and in doing so demonstrate your own sense of superiority.

And that is what I am asking: wouldn’t Jews have been better off without the superiority of Christians looking down on them?

 

[Devils_Advocate]

First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?

Hatred was before Christ and after Christ, so it would have made no difference seeing the real argument has never been about Christ but which boy was being sacrificed by Abraham that day and until Father tell us the argument will rage on if it was Isaac or Ishmael…

 

[Meriweather]

And that is what I am asking: wouldn’t Jews have been better off without the superiority of Christians looking down on them?

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. (Eleanor Roosevelt)

When the treasures of Judaism are so very obvious to me, a Catholic, what other Christian sects say about both Judaism and Catholicism don't even bounce off me because my faith deflects them before they ever get within touching distance.

No, Jews would not have been better had Jesus not been born, which by the way, I think a sickening question to ask about anyone. Yes, even Hitler (and others) who defiled and corrupted himself and the world. Wasted potential should always be cause for despair and lamentation of a human soul.

Jesus wanted the world to know that sins are forgiven, of God's love for us--a love that should be--and should have been--reciprocated between people of all faiths--not just between Christians and Jews. To blame Jesus for our own failings is the antithesis of one of the first lessons Genesis teaches both Judaism and Christianity: That blaming another for our own failing may be very human, but it is still not right.

Think about it: "It was the serpent..." "It was the woman..." "It was Jesus..."

 

[Lisa558]

Hatred was before Christ and after Christ, so it would have made no difference seeing the real argument has never been about Christ but which boy was being sacrificed by Abraham that day and until Father tell us the argument will rage on if it was Isaac or Ishmael…

It was Isaac who was about to be sacrificed. Never a question.

 

[Lisa558]

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. (Eleanor Roosevelt)

When the treasures of Judaism are so very obvious to me, a Catholic, what other Christian sects say about both Judaism and Catholicism don't even bounce off me because my faith deflects them before they ever get within touching distance.

No, Jews would not have been better had Jesus not been born, which by the way, I think a sickening question to ask about anyone. Yes, even Hitler (and others) who defiled and corrupted himself and the world. Wasted potential should always be cause for despair and lamentation of a human soul.

Jesus wanted the world to know that sins are forgiven, of God's love for us--a love that should be--and should have been--reciprocated between people of all faiths--not just between Christians and Jews. To blame Jesus for our own failings is the antithesis of one of the first lessons Genesis teaches both Judaism and Christianity: That blaming another for our own failing may be very human, but it is still not right.

Think about it: "It was the serpent..." "It was the woman..." "It was Jesus..."

Who’s blaming Jesus for failings? The point is that some very negative comments about Jews were written in the NT. Particularly John - thr most antisemitic gospel of the four. That it was written after anyone who knew Jesus had died allowed for lots of embellishment, and also lots of hostility for Jews who refused to abandon Judaism’s teachings.

As far as it being a sickening question, I knew that some Christians would find it offensive, and thus apologized in advance, but I still think it’s a fair question. NONE of what has happened to the Jews - the persecution, the expulsions, the mass murders - is Jesus’ fault. It’s because Christians blamed Jews for his murder, and that is the underlying reason for so much antisemitism today. At least in my school days, and those of my parents, it was commonplace to be called “Christ killers!” whenever an argument ensued.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

It was Isaac who was about to be sacrificed. Never a question.

Depends on the religion, but the fact is the fighting has gone on long before and will go on long after, Jesus is just some excuse to keep the fighting going…

Look, what you guys call God is actually An or Anu and the stories at so old that it matter not but when Jesus called God Father it is the correct way of addressing the divine as Father and if there is a Female Divine then she would be Mother.

In the end the Jewish people will always be persecuted until the end of time, so again Jesus story in this is just a tool to hate the Jewish society of the World…

 

[surada]

Who’s blaming Jesus for failings? The point is that some very negative comments about Jews were written in the NT. Particularly John - thr most antisemitic gospel of the four. That it was written after anyone who knew Jesus had died allowed for lots of embellishment, and also lots of hostility for Jews who refused to abandon Judaism’s teachings.

As far as it being a sickening question, I knew that some Christians would find it offensive, and thus apologized in advance, but I still think it’s a fair question. NONE of what has happened to the Jews - the persecution, the expulsions, the mass murders - is Jesus’ fault. It’s because Christians blamed Jews for his murder, and that is the underlying reason for so much antisemitism today. At least in my school days, and those of my parents, it was commonplace to be called “Christ killers!” whenever an argument ensued.

That is so sad. I never heard anyone called Christ killer in my whole life.

 

[Lisa558]

That is so sad. I never heard anyone called Christ killer in my whole life.

My grandmother was called that too, when she was a girl, but then again she lived in anti-semitic, pre-WW2 Europe.

Here in America, you could be having an argument with classmate about anything - you both liked the same boy (oh-oh….big problem), you didn’t want to do the lighting job at the school play and wanted a “on stage” role, whatever, and out of the blue, you’d hear “Christ-killer,” screamed at a high decibel. And this wasn’t in some hick town where nobody ever saw a Jew. This would happen in Long Island, NY, and Washington, DC.