Apologies in advance to Christians, but to Jews: Would Jews have been better off if Jesus hadn’t been born?

[Lisa558]

Lisa everyone knows you started a troll thread so you could call everyone antisemite (((who))) invented that word. Now not many know that the Bolsheviks hated Christians and mass murdered the Russian Christian Clergy, tortured them in all kinds of Satanic ways.

YIKES! I didn’t read any of your shit, other than the initial accusation. Good riddance to you too,

 

[Lisa558]

I was asking the JEWS their opinion. I didn’t need to hear from a bunch of disgusting antisemites.

 

[shimon]

And that concept of theirs reveals a giant megalomaniac, not a servant, but one served.

He definitely is ” served” every Sunday and assorted holiday’ s and ends up in the ” septic Nile “ flowing towardsEgypt and out to the seas( the nations)( after all one of the characters he is based on supposedly fled the holy land opposite of what the Israelites did)…...Talk about shades of Cani a BAAL ism….

 

[Circe]

I see you have hostility toward Jews too. Those “troublemakers” have contributed fsr beyond their numbers toward scientific, medical, and technological advances. The would would be a much worse place without them, but I don’t expect you to acknowledge that.

Amazing that we have the entire country upside down due to “systemic racism” against blacks when the animus towards Jews is much worse.

No, I do acknowledge that Jewish contributions in science and medicine and business have been huge: 17 points above the white average in IQ will do that, apparently. Jews did eugenics on themselves: why can't blacks? Never mind, that's obvious.

Nevertheless, all I said above is true, that the Jews and their monotheism caused a LOT of trouble, mostly for themselves, well before Christianity was ever heard of; and that was the subject of the thread. In a polytheistic world, nobody likes monotheists: and vice versa now. I have a whole shelf of Jewish history and find it very interesting. The too-common name-calling isn't going to stop me reading.

 

[hobelim]

From an outside perspective, this is no less ridiculous than the stuff you believe. Just FYI.

It may seem that way to you but I assure you, it only seems that way. That's because you lack discipline in the humility and honesty with yourself and others essential for comprehension of the simple truth that extirpates the entire structure of your addled mind.

Basically you are a coward who does not even have the integrity to acknowledge the sound reasoning in my saying that the story of adam and eve and the talking serpent is a figurative story written by extremely intelligent literate and dedicated Jewish people to educate their own children about the harsh realities and hard learned lessons of their past surrounded by illiterate and superstitious barbarians.

FYI Your derision, the only card you play, has absolutely no negative effect on anyone but yourself.

 

[hobelim]

Here’s a point of discussion: WAS Jesus really a megalomaniac, saying he was the son of G-d, and the only way to Heaven was through him? It does sound arrogant, to say the least, and it’s nothing a Jew would ever say. I seriously doubt he ever said that. He just taught Jewish values, that’s all.

"Son of God" is just a relational metaphor for the awaited Messiah indicating rank and a unique position in the community of God above that of an ordinary prophet or "servant of God", a messiah who was expected to reveal knowledge and teaching hidden in the law since the foundation of Heaven and Earth, a concept of a world above and a world below, and the reality of cause and effect and the importance of standing guard over the sanctity of one's own mind as alluded to in kosher law.

It was never an arrogant claim of divinity or equality with God.

And if compliance with the instruction of the law is essential for attaining eternal life in heaven with God and if Jesus was the messiah then he is the only way to that life.

What became obsolete was the talmud, what Jesus called "the traditions of men", what he revealed was the wrong way to follow the law that will never be rewarded by God except by the maledictions promised for non compliance.

 

[hobelim]

So according to the “Holy Scriptures,” aka the antisemitic New Testament, Jews did all sorts of wrong snit so the superior Christians would know how to brhave?

OK. I have the answer to the question I raised in the OP. No Jesus would mean no anti-Jew NT, and Jews indeed would have been better off.

But alas, we can’t go back and change history.

You should include in your speculations that the virgin diddling edible triune mangod unleashed on the world in 325 c.e. was a fabrication of superstitious Romans who knew nothing about Jewish thought, beliefs, or the figurative language used in scripture including the NT.

The teaching revealed to Jesus by God and buried and hidden in the gospels like a time capsule went flying right over their heads and still remains above the grasp of many at their wits end.

 

[hobelim]

No Jesus would mean no anti-Jew NT, and Jews indeed would have been better off.

But alas, we can’t go back and change history.

But the revelation that Jesus received from God, lost to time, that was hidden and buried in the Gospels (in the same way that teaching was hidden and buried in the Torah), once comprehended, changes both history and the future.

Look at it this way. Ever since 325 it was always right to reject the edible mangod bullshit that originated in Rome and everyone, great or small, Jew or Gentile, who suffered or was killed for it received the reward of the righteous.

 

[Lisa558]

But the revelation that Jesus received from God, lost to time, that was hidden and buried in the Gospels (in the same way that teaching was hidden and buried in the Torah), once comprehended, changes both history and the future.

Look at it this way. Ever since 325 it was always right to reject the edible mangod bullshit that originated in Rome and everyone, great or small, Jew or Gentile, who suffered or was killed for it received the reward of the righteous.

What you are not getting is that you are talking to a Jewish woman who does not believe that Jesus got a revelation from G-d! Please understand that when you are talking to a Jew and use as your debate point “but Jesus‘s revelation, hidden in the Gospels but awaiting comprehension” is meaningless to a Jew. It‘s the same thing as if a Gentile were to say to me “but it says so in the Gospel!”

 

[hobelim]

What you are not getting is that you are talking to a Jewish woman who does not believe that Jesus got a revelation from G-d! Please understand that when you are talking to a Jew and use as your debate point “but Jesus‘s revelation, hidden in the Gospels but awaiting comprehension” is meaningless to a Jew. It‘s the same thing as if a Gentile were to say to me “but it says so in the Gospel!”

I understand and know where you are coming from.

That being said there are many others who will not let understandable preconceptions based on the irrational things that Christians say prevent them from considering something never seen or heard by them before or examining scripture rationally to either confirm or deny the truth of it.

People are free to prove me in the wrong. If they can't then there is only one right course to take and that, if you hope to see the promised peace of the messianic age, is good news for all people if they do it. If not, then, if God is God, history will be the future.

 

[Lisa558]

I understand and know where you are coming from.

That being said there are many others who will not let preconceptions prevent them from considering something never seen or heard by them before or examining scripture rationally to either confirm or deny the truth of it.

People are free to prove me in the wrong. If they can't then there is only one right course to take and that, if you hope to see the promised peace of the messianic age, is good news for all people if they do it. If not then history will be the future.

Again, you are coming at this from the perspective of YOUR belief of the messianic age, and that people who hope to see it must see the truth as revealed by Jesus - but that is the truth as you see it.

Jews also have hope of a messianic age, only it doesn’t involve Jesus. It’s just a different truth from your truth.

Also, I cannot prove you wrong any more than you can prove me wrong. I just know what feels right for me, and I am sticking with traditional Judaism.

Finally, don’t assume that I haven’t read all four Gospels. I have.

 

[hobelim]

Also, I cannot prove you wrong any more than you can prove me wrong. I just know what feels right for me, and I am sticking with traditional Judaism.

There has from the beginning been secret knowledge, teaching, that had been hidden even from Jewish laity only known by the initiated few.

When these men have undergone, with blamelessness of conduct, a two year preparation in the fundamentals of the community, they shall be segregated as especially sacred among the formal members of the community. Any knowledge which the expositor of the law may possess but which may have to remain arcane to the ordinary layman, he shall not keep hidden from them; for in their case there need be no fear that it might induce apostasy.

No one is to engage in discussion or disputation with men of ill repute; and in the company of froward men everyone is to abstain from talk about (keep hidden) the meaning of the Law [Torah]. Dead sea scrolls, manual of discipline

Stick with traditional Judaism if you want. I am not trying to convert you into anything that you are not.

Just try to understand that if you truly want to be kosher one cannot comply with or reject the literal meaning of the command that prohibits eating the vile and loathsome flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate without violating the deeper implications of the exact same law.

 

[Lisa558]

There has from the beginning been secret knowledge, teaching, that had been hidden even from Jewish laity only known by the initiated few.

No one is to engage in discussion or disputation with men of ill repute; and in the company of froward men everyone is to abstain from talk about (keep hidden) the meaning of the Law [Torah]. Dead sea scrolls, manual of discipline

Stick with traditional Judaism if you want. I am not trying to convert you into anything that you are not.

Just try to understand that if you truly want to be kosher one cannot comply with or reject the literal meaning of the command that prohibits eating the vile and loathsome flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate without violating the deeper implications of the exact same law.

I understand the reasons for kashrut, from the health aspects of animals that ruminate (which remain today in the sense of maintaining tradition) to the compassion in not seething a kid in its mothers milk (the reasoning behind which is still relevant.)

 

[hobelim]

I understand the reasons for kashrut, from the health aspects of animals that ruminate (which remain today in the sense of maintaining tradition) to the compassion in not seething a kid in its mothers milk (the reasoning behind which is still relevant.)

If the romans knew to cook pork well done for health reasons why would God command to refrain from that which is not really a health issue? Makes no sense.

The way I see it unclean creatures that do not ruminate are a direct reference to people who swallow any garbage, any claim belief or teaching, without thinking deeply, ruminating. It follows then that the subject of kosher law is not food whether clean or unclean. Flesh is just a metaphor. The described animals are metaphors for human archetypes. Teeming vermin that go down on all fours, vultures, serpents, bottom feeders, sheep, goats, etc., etc. Here is the wisdom of God.

In this light this law will always be relevant to those who don't want to lose their sanity. What goes into the stomach cannot defile the mind, only what you put into your mind can defile it.

You said that you read the gospels. Doesn't that sound familiar?

 

[Lisa558]

If the romans knew to cook pork well done for health reasons why would God command to refrain from that which is not really a health issue? Makes no sense.

The way I see it unclean creatures that do not ruminate are a direct reference to people who swallow any garbage without thinking deeply, ruminating. The subject of kosher law is teaching whether clean or unclean. Flesh is just a metaphor.

In this light this law will always be relevant to those who don't want to lose their sanity. What goes into the stomach cannot defile the mind, only what you put into your mind can defile it.

To your latter point, that is coming from what Jesus said, if indeed he actually did say that and was not attributed to him later, and was the way he, or his followers, excused Jews from keeping kosher.

I choose to follow Judaism’s laws, and maintaining kashrut is one of them. It ties me to my people, and my heritage, and the values taught in my religion. I especially appreciate the compassion behind separating fleish and milk.

I once made a new recipe, boiling meat in coconut milk (which is NOT milk), and it just looked so…..so…..wrong. I was boiling the flesh of an animal in what appeared to be the milk that nurtured it in life. I never made that recipe again.

 

[hobelim]

To your latter point, that is coming from what Jesus said, if indeed he actually did say that and was not attributed to him later, and was the way he, or his followers, excused Jews from keeping kosher.

I choose to follow Judaism’s laws, and maintaining kashrut is one of them. It ties me to my people, and my heritage, and the values taught in my religion. I especially appreciate the compassion behind separating fleish and milk.

I once made a new recipe, boiling meat in coconut milk (which is NOT milk), and it just looked so…..so…..wrong. I was boiling the flesh of an animal in what appeared to be the milk that nurtured it in life. I never made that recipe again.

Milk is what is given to babies that have no teeth. A grown person with thinking teeth needs flesh.

How many mothers have boiled their kids to death with maudlin fairy tales about Jesus? Talk about so…..so…..wrong. How many mothers do not teach children that Elijah being "taken up" to heaven in a whirlwind is just a euphemism for his being killed by a lynch mob? How many don't know?

What's the difference?

 

[Lisa558]

Milk is what is given to babies that have no teeth. A grown person with thinking teeth needs flesh.

How many mothers have boiled their kids in maudlin fairy tales about Jesus? How many Jewish people do not teach children that Elijah being taken up in a whirlwind is just a euphemism for his being killed by a lynch mob?

What's the difference?

Of course an adult needs flesh. But an adult doesn’t need to eat the flesh mixed with dairy.

Also, not sure if you’re telling me that that Jewish history - such as Moses being pulled from the Nile and later leading the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt is a ”maudlin fairy tale,” or if you’re saying that a man was born to a virgin and later declared son of G-d, and resurrected, is the fairy tale.

(Never heard the term “thinking teeth.” Are you American?)

 

[hobelim]

Of course an adult needs flesh. But an adult doesn’t need to eat the flesh mixed with dairy.

Also, not sure if you’re telling me that that Jewish history - such as Moses being pulled from the Nile and later leading the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt is a ”maudlin fairy tale,” or if you’re saying that a man was born to a virgin and later declared son of G-d, and resurrected, is the fairy tale.

(Never heard the term “thinking teeth.” Are you American?)

Yes I am an American, a stranger in a strange land educated by martians so to speak. lol....

People of every religion teach adults children's stories as if they were the literal truth, flesh, real meat, but they are not. I don't have to tell you in how many ways that has screwed up lives. Thats why is is forbidden to mix meat, adult food, truth, with dairy, fairy tales, baby food.

Here is the wisdom of God.

Even so there is teaching of great value hidden in every fairy tale not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used. Even in the story of Moses being pulled from the nile. If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.

Again, doesn't that sound familiar?

 

[Lisa558]

Yes I am an American, a stranger in a strange land educated by martians so to speak. lol....

People of every religion teach adults children's stories as if they were the literal truth, flesh, real meat, but they are not. I don't have to tell you in how many ways that has screwed up lives.

Even so there is teaching of great value hidden in every fairy tale not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used. Even in the story of Moses being pulled from the nile. If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.

Again, doesn't that sound familiar?

You are preaching to the Choir. I take Torah class - one can study for a lifetime and still nowhere near knowing it all - and we can analyze a single verse for 20 minutes for its hidden teachings and values promoted before moving onto another.

That said, there is adequate historical evidence to indicate the story of Moses is true. Adam and Eve? Well, not so much, but the symbolism is rich.

 

[hobelim]

You are preaching to the Choir. I take Torah class - one can study for a lifetime and still nowhere near knowing it all - and we can analyze a single verse for 20 minutes for its hidden teachings and values promoted before moving onto another.

That said, there is adequate historical evidence to indicate the story of Moses is true. Adam and Eve? Well, not so much, but the symbolism is rich.

That's great.

One question. If the deeper meaning and hidden subject of Kosher law is revealed to be about teaching and not food doesn't a person have to decide between the two especially since the literal application of the refrain from eating the flesh of swine that do not ruminate violates the deeper figurative meaning that actually reflects divine wisdom?

Isn't the teaching that the subject of kosher law is about clean or unclean food in itself the flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate? Knowing this now should anyone continue to teach their children to differentiate between clean and unclean food or clean and unclean teaching?

Has that ever come up in your studies?

Isn't complying with the will of God in the right way a matter of life and death?