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Apologies in advance to Christians, but to Jews: Would Jews have been better off if Jesus hadn’t been born?

Lisa558

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First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?
 

marvin martian

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First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?

It's really hard to say these things wouldn't have happened had Jesus not been born. A lot of circumstances contributed to the persecution of Jews, which was obviously going on long before Christ was born. Monsters you mentioned like Torquemada and Hitler would have found another scapegoat, or just been more creative in their persecution of Jews, since Jews have been othered by dominant cultures since long before the time of Jesus.

My perspective; I was born and raised Jewish, and converted to Orthodox Christianity as an adult.
 

Otis Mayfield

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I'm still not sure why Jews haven't accepted that Jesus as their messiah, foretold by their scriptures.

What Jew has had more impact than Jesus?
 

surada

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First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?

Historically the Jewish people wanted to remain separate.. Their laws and rituals were all about setting them apart from the "gentiles".

I don't think you can blame their expulsion from Spain or the Holocaust on Christians. In Spain they also expelled the Muslims.. and Hitler went after Socialists, Communists, Democrats and Jews...gypsies, homosexuals, clergy and anyone with an education that would oppose Hitler's agenda.
 
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Lisa558

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I'm still not sure why Jews haven't accepted that Jesus as their messiah, foretold by their scriptures.

What Jew has had more impact than Jesus?
Not the topic. Start a new thread, and maybe we will tell you.
 

surada

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It's really hard to say these things wouldn't have happened had Jesus not been born. A lot of circumstances contributed to the persecution of Jews, which was obviously going on long before Christ was born. Monsters you mentioned like Torquemada and Hitler would have found another scapegoat, or just been more creative in their persecution of Jews, since Jews have been othered by dominant cultures since long before the time of Jesus.

My perspective; I was born and raised Jewish, and converted to Orthodox Christianity as an adult.

Scapegoat is the operative word.
 

HaShev

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First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?
To be historically accurate:
Jesus wasn't physically born, he was a created image of a man born out of a pen on papyrus.
The Historical characters used for portions of that image were born, and each has to be discussed seperately.
Whether it be the singular figures or the created legend which combined mythologies of many cultures it still remains the same: whether they existed or not you'd still have those other mythologies Jesus was used to mask, that being Baal and Mithra worship, so it still would be rather the same, including persecution and subversion. What changed with this first fallen imposter (story of Lucifer) is that in the nature of cause and affect, it brought pagan societies half way to Judaic precepts and Torah's ethos.
Answering the age old riddle why did God allow Lucifer to exist, because it "brought the 2 sticks into 1". (Story of 2 Messiahs Ben Joseph and Ben Dovid)
This is why Israel and the Jews are called the servants throughout Isaiah who sacrifice for this unpopular truth (Isaiah 44 and Miketz portion of the Torah), being the sacrifice until it's time it's recognized.
liapic.gif
 

Viktor

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First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?
There would not be more Jews. Jewish law forbids proselytizing and has since AD100. Antisemitism comes from all people, not just from Christians. Many antisemites are not Christians at all. Hitler tried to wipe out the Christian churches in Germany.
 

Penelope

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First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?
I'm an atheist and I quite agree, no jewish god. Israel is the holy land, I disagree. Oh by the way it was high jews that wanted Jesus put to death.
 

LuckyDuck

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First the big question, was Jesus even a real person?
1. He was supposedly 30 years of age when he died.
2. The very first mention of him in writing was 63 years "after" his death.
Generally, the closer that text appears during someone's actual existence, the more likely that person existed, but even that isn't a guarantee. When you have a tomb with a body and/or writings while the person was alive, that can be considered a good indicator.
On to the Jewish issue. Communities/societies, when having large problems, will tend to seek out a scapegoat. In the 1500's and 1600's, when crops failed or livestock died off, communities would seek out a scapegoat for the problem and would generally come up with a person or persons they deemed to be a witch. The Jews are and just the modern equivalent of the witch.
Today, the hatred of the Jews is more the result of constant loud claims by Muslims, that Jews are murderous occupiers of their land, Palestine." The fact is really quite different. Hebrews and Jews are really one and the same. It's a religion that doesn't get a lot of conversions into it, they just have a lot of kids. Anyway, the Jews founded Jerusalem and Israel, centuries before there was a Muslim religion. Even though the Romans and Christians held control of it over the centuries, the Jews were still there, as was and are their holy sites. Eventually, the Muslims waged war on the Christians in the area and took the area by force and the teachings by Muhammad was and still is, that if you take the land of an infidel by force it is yours and if the infidels get it back, they are to be considered as occupiers, hence the constant claims that Jews are occupiers of Israel.
When the UN Security Council voted to let the Jews have a portion of their territory back, the Israelis offered to let the Muslims (calling themselves Palestinians) remain in their territory, to which they refused and left, making it clear they refused to live under infidel rule. Since that time, they've been determined to wipe Israel out and kill all Jews in the process. They are also the ones that always initiate rocket attacks on civilian communities.
Anyway, the bottom line is that for Muslims, infidels are the scapegoats for their problems.
 

surada

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First the big question, was Jesus even a real person?
1. He was supposedly 30 years of age when he died.
2. The very first mention of him in writing was 63 years "after" his death.
Generally, the closer that text appears during someone's actual existence, the more likely that person existed, but even that isn't a guarantee. When you have a tomb with a body and/or writings while the person was alive, that can be considered a good indicator.
On to the Jewish issue. Communities/societies, when having large problems, will tend to seek out a scapegoat. In the 1500's and 1600's, when crops failed or livestock died off, communities would seek out a scapegoat for the problem and would generally come up with a person or persons they deemed to be a witch. The Jews are and just the modern equivalent of the witch.
Today, the hatred of the Jews is more the result of constant loud claims by Muslims, that Jews are murderous occupiers of their land, Palestine." The fact is really quite different. Hebrews and Jews are really one and the same. It's a religion that doesn't get a lot of conversions into it, they just have a lot of kids. Anyway, the Jews founded Jerusalem and Israel, centuries before there was a Muslim religion. Even though the Romans and Christians held control of it over the centuries, the Jews were still there, as was and are their holy sites. Eventually, the Muslims waged war on the Christians in the area and took the area by force and the teachings by Muhammad was and still is, that if you take the land of an infidel by force it is yours and if the infidels get it back, they are to be considered as occupiers, hence the constant claims that Jews are occupiers of Israel.
When the UN Security Council voted to let the Jews have a portion of their territory back, the Israelis offered to let the Muslims (calling themselves Palestinians) remain in their territory, to which they refused and left, making it clear they refused to live under infidel rule. Since that time, they've been determined to wipe Israel out and kill all Jews in the process. They are also the ones that always initiate rocket attacks on civilian communities.
Anyway, the bottom line is that for Muslims, infidels are the scapegoats for their problems.

You don't know any Muslims, do you?

 

Penelope

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The Palestinians were both Jewish, Muslim and Christians. All three changed for the religions of the country. Remember the Otterman empire it, rose in the 1300 and fell in 1922.
The Jewish people occupied Yemen, Median and Mecca. Reading as one can see Jews helped with the Muslim book, the same people give it away.

Many of the Jews lived in Babylon and stayed there.
 

bodecea

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First, please allow me to address this topic to Jews, as I realize the concept may be offensive to Christians.

In looking over the new thread started by an antisemite, blaming Jews for killing Jesus (despite the Pope putting that lie to rest years ago), it’s obvious that the antisemitic content of the New Testament, particularly John, has resulted in yells of “Christ-killers!” and millenia of Jewish persecution.

1. There would not have been an entire new Christian religion, and Jews would be much more numerous today.

2. There would have been no NT, and no talk of the “spawn of Satan” and hypocrites in synagogues, and so forth.

3. Without the underlyimg hatred of Jews to propel them, there wouldn’t have been the expulsion of the Jews from Spain…..the genocide of Jews in Nazi Germany…..and numerous other incidences of persecution.

What do fellow Jews think?
Better ask about whether Saul/Paul was born. Jesus was just another rabbi of that time.....it's the cult leader Paul that took the ball and ran with it.
 
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Lisa558

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There would not be more Jews. Jewish law forbids proselytizing and has since AD100. Antisemitism comes from all people, not just from Christians. Many antisemites are not Christians at all. Hitler tried to wipe out the Christian churches in Germany.
I didn’t mean more Jews via proselytizing. I know it’s forbidden. I mean that the early Jews would not have converted to Christianity, and thus they would remain Jewish, and their children would remain Jewish. Even if only half of the children, and their children, and their children, etc., etc., remained Jews, we would have hundreds of millions of Jews in the world today.
 
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Lisa558

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First the big question, was Jesus even a real person?
1. He was supposedly 30 years of age when he died.
2. The very first mention of him in writing was 63 years "after" his death.
Generally, the closer that text appears during someone's actual existence, the more likely that person existed, but even that isn't a guarantee. When you have a tomb with a body and/or writings while the person was alive, that can be considered a good indicator.
On to the Jewish issue. Communities/societies, when having large problems, will tend to seek out a scapegoat. In the 1500's and 1600's, when crops failed or livestock died off, communities would seek out a scapegoat for the problem and would generally come up with a person or persons they deemed to be a witch. The Jews are and just the modern equivalent of the witch.
Today, the hatred of the Jews is more the result of constant loud claims by Muslims, that Jews are murderous occupiers of their land, Palestine." The fact is really quite different. Hebrews and Jews are really one and the same. It's a religion that doesn't get a lot of conversions into it, they just have a lot of kids. Anyway, the Jews founded Jerusalem and Israel, centuries before there was a Muslim religion. Even though the Romans and Christians held control of it over the centuries, the Jews were still there, as was and are their holy sites. Eventually, the Muslims waged war on the Christians in the area and took the area by force and the teachings by Muhammad was and still is, that if you take the land of an infidel by force it is yours and if the infidels get it back, they are to be considered as occupiers, hence the constant claims that Jews are occupiers of Israel.
When the UN Security Council voted to let the Jews have a portion of their territory back, the Israelis offered to let the Muslims (calling themselves Palestinians) remain in their territory, to which they refused and left, making it clear they refused to live under infidel rule. Since that time, they've been determined to wipe Israel out and kill all Jews in the process. They are also the ones that always initiate rocket attacks on civilian communities.
Anyway, the bottom line is that for Muslims, infidels are the scapegoats for their problems.
Yes, I have to agree that much of the current antisemitism is being fostered by Muslims, rather than Christians, which is why I believe there is a problem with rising antisemitism in the Democrat Party - as they align with Muslims, the Democrats are reluctant to take a hard stand against antisemitism, particularly when expressed by a Muslim.

So to that end, it makes me think that while the historical antisemitism would have been less has Jesus not been born, once Mohammed entered the picture, antisemitism would have heated up regardless.
 

marvin martian

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You people?

Yes, those who persecute people who are different from them or make choices they don't agree with. You people. Don't try to lie and deny it, I've read your posts on vaccinations.
 

marvin martian

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I didn’t mean more Jews via proselytizing. I know it’s forbidden. I mean that the early Jews would not have converted to Christianity, and thus they would remain Jewish, and their children would remain Jewish. Even if only half of the children, and their children, and their children, etc., etc., remained Jews, we would have hundreds of millions of Jews in the world today.

I'm not sure that's the way it would have gone. The number of Jews who became Christians was very small in the time of Jesus. Only after Constantine decriminalized Christianity in the 4th century did it really start to attract large numbers of people.
 
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Lisa558

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I'm not sure that's the way it would have gone. The number of Jews who became Christians was very small in the time of Jesus. Only after Constantine decriminalized Christianity in the 4th century did it really start to attract large numbers of people.
OK….well following that line of thinking, there still would have been no Christianity to decriminalize.

But I suppose in reality that another religion would have taken off.
 

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