'Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic'?

[gtopa1]

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

Well, no. Not ANY criticism of Israel gets an anti-semitism label. And honestly, there is very little real criticism of Israel's polices and actions floating around. And this forum is a good example of that. Actually, you, Coyote, are pretty much the only pro-Palestinian poster who discusses and criticizes polices AS policies -- rather than blanket statements against "Zionists", or, let's be honest, Jews.

Pick a topic that is one of the current discussions about Israel as listed on page one of this forum:

Tunnels, for example. How many people are actually discussing whether or not destroying the tunnels is a good (moral) policy or not?

What exactly is a "Pro-Palestinian"??? I take it to mean supporting a People living in a State near Israel that includes Gaza and the West Bank living in Peace with its neighbours. It is an artificial entity as Palestinians already have a homeland in Jordan; one from which many were evicted because of Arafat's violent tendencies. Hamas is just a Stalinist terrorist org without claim to legitimacy. Not possible to create a State while Hamas is in control of Gaza. I would suggest that the first move of Palestinian supporters is to get rid of Hamas and free the people.

Greg

 

[Mindful]

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

Well, no. Not ANY criticism of Israel gets an anti-semitism label. And honestly, there is very little real criticism of Israel's polices and actions floating around. And this forum is a good example of that. Actually, you, Coyote, are pretty much the only pro-Palestinian poster who discusses and criticizes polices AS policies -- rather than blanket statements against "Zionists", or, let's be honest, Jews.

Pick a topic that is one of the current discussions about Israel as listed on page one of this forum:

Tunnels, for example. How many people are actually discussing whether or not destroying the tunnels is a good (moral) policy or not?

What exactly is a "Pro-Palestinian"??? I take it to mean supporting a People living in a State near Israel that includes Gaza and the West Bank living in Peace with its neighbours. It is an artificial entity as Palestinians already have a homeland in Jordan; one from which many were evicted because of Arafat's violent tendencies. Hamas is just a Stalinist terrorist org without claim to legitimacy. Not possible to create a State while Hamas is in control of Gaza. IO would suggest that the first move of Palestinian supporters is ti get rid of Hamas and free the people.

Greg

There is no 'state'. The offer of it was turned down. Repeatedly.

 

[dani67]

An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

 

[Mindful]

There are nearly 2.1 million registered Palestinian refugees in Jordan as of 2014. Around 370,000 live in ten refugee camps, with the biggest one being Baqa'a refugee camp with over 104,000 residents, followed by Amman New Camp (Wihdat) with over 51,500 residents.

Wiki.

 

[dani67]

 

[Mindful]

I see Godwin has turned up.

 

[dani67]

I see Godwin has turned up.

hitler best dream was israel =.send european jew to ******* desert-hell near wild arabs.

 

[gtopa1]

With all due respect -- what Palestinians NEED is to hijack the Zionist model and start building coalitions for a Homeland. Not hating Zionists. They need to BECOME Zionists and not mob actors.

If you want to take it to the wire, here's the homeland.

What I see is a group of people who self identify as Palestinian being abused by MOST other Arab countries besides their gripes with Israel... Right now they are being used for shields and targets at camps in Syria. Newer Pali migrants into Jordan are also treated as "camp creatures" and respectable Arab countries like Egypt and Lebanon really don't trust them.

They NEED a Nationalist Movement. They NEED representation and organization., They NEED to be "Zionists". Instead of mob scenes, useless knifings and bombings and resistance with NO representation..

The "homeland" SHOULD involve ALL the neighbors. That means Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria AND Israel. That kind of coalition COULD carve out a homeland and HOLD it for the Palis in trust. Until they organized and FOCUSED on building a nation and abandoned their "resistance fighter -guerilla" fantasy..

They NEED to THINK like Zionists or they will become irrelevant..

You could argue that the Pals are being used by the Arabs as a form of leverage against Israel.

I wonder why there was no uproar during all the years of occupation of the West Bank by Jordan.

I think that's because Jordan IS the Palestinian homeland. The problem was that Arafat murdered Jordanians and tried to take over the Country.

Greg

 

[Mindful]

With all due respect -- what Palestinians NEED is to hijack the Zionist model and start building coalitions for a Homeland. Not hating Zionists. They need to BECOME Zionists and not mob actors.

If you want to take it to the wire, here's the homeland.

What I see is a group of people who self identify as Palestinian being abused by MOST other Arab countries besides their gripes with Israel... Right now they are being used for shields and targets at camps in Syria. Newer Pali migrants into Jordan are also treated as "camp creatures" and respectable Arab countries like Egypt and Lebanon really don't trust them.

They NEED a Nationalist Movement. They NEED representation and organization., They NEED to be "Zionists". Instead of mob scenes, useless knifings and bombings and resistance with NO representation..

The "homeland" SHOULD involve ALL the neighbors. That means Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria AND Israel. That kind of coalition COULD carve out a homeland and HOLD it for the Palis in trust. Until they organized and FOCUSED on building a nation and abandoned their "resistance fighter -guerilla" fantasy..

They NEED to THINK like Zionists or they will become irrelevant..

You could argue that the Pals are being used by the Arabs as a form of leverage against Israel.

I wonder why there was no uproar during all the years of occupation of the West Bank by Jordan.

I think that's because Jordan IS the Palestinian homeland. The problem was that Arafat murdered Jordanians and tried to take over the Country.

Greg

There you go. The British installed a Hashemite King, to create even more discord.

 

[gtopa1]

With all due respect -- what Palestinians NEED is to hijack the Zionist model and start building coalitions for a Homeland. Not hating Zionists. They need to BECOME Zionists and not mob actors.

If you want to take it to the wire, here's the homeland.

What I see is a group of people who self identify as Palestinian being abused by MOST other Arab countries besides their gripes with Israel... Right now they are being used for shields and targets at camps in Syria. Newer Pali migrants into Jordan are also treated as "camp creatures" and respectable Arab countries like Egypt and Lebanon really don't trust them.

They NEED a Nationalist Movement. They NEED representation and organization., They NEED to be "Zionists". Instead of mob scenes, useless knifings and bombings and resistance with NO representation..

The "homeland" SHOULD involve ALL the neighbors. That means Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria AND Israel. That kind of coalition COULD carve out a homeland and HOLD it for the Palis in trust. Until they organized and FOCUSED on building a nation and abandoned their "resistance fighter -guerilla" fantasy..

They NEED to THINK like Zionists or they will become irrelevant..

You could argue that the Pals are being used by the Arabs as a form of leverage against Israel.

I wonder why there was no uproar during all the years of occupation of the West Bank by Jordan.

I think that's because Jordan IS the Palestinian homeland. The problem was that Arafat murdered Jordanians and tried to take over the Country.

Greg

There you go. The British installed a Hashemite King, to create even more discord.

I'm interested to see if any Cold War Documents can shed some light on the machinations of Arafat??

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

Well, no. Not ANY criticism of Israel gets an anti-semitism label. And honestly, there is very little real criticism of Israel's polices and actions floating around. And this forum is a good example of that. Actually, you, Coyote, are pretty much the only pro-Palestinian poster who discusses and criticizes polices AS policies -- rather than blanket statements against "Zionists", or, let's be honest, Jews.

Pick a topic that is one of the current discussions about Israel as listed on page one of this forum:

Tunnels, for example. How many people are actually discussing whether or not destroying the tunnels is a good (moral) policy or not?

What exactly is a "Pro-Palestinian"??? I take it to mean supporting a People living in a State near Israel that includes Gaza and the West Bank living in Peace with its neighbours. It is an artificial entity as Palestinians already have a homeland in Jordan; one from which many were evicted because of Arafat's violent tendencies. Hamas is just a Stalinist terrorist org without claim to legitimacy. Not possible to create a State while Hamas is in control of Gaza. IO would suggest that the first move of Palestinian supporters is ti get rid of Hamas and free the people.

Greg

There is no 'state'. The offer of it was turned down. Repeatedly.

Of course; I meant in the context of the creation of a state; not an existing one. My bad.

Greg

 

[frigidweirdo]

An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

It's one of those tactics that are used by people to stop other people being able to have an argument. It happens all over the place.

 

[TheGreatKing]

U guys avoid the most basic thing and hence can never reach a proper solution. If English/French/Russian/any real people had been living in Palestine before 1948, then we could have conversations of who is indigenous etc. Even then they would have had to vacate the land for the Jews since God had allotted this land from Nile to Euphrates (I think) to the Jews. It is written in the Bible again and again. We should and must not argue against the word of God Himself. But who are these Arabs and the rest of their colored sisters? Are they really people? They are mischievous devils whose whole purpose since the beginning is to create trouble for Mankind. Remember a verse in the Old Testament: "Since you made me jealous by worshiping Gods who are not real Gods, I will persecute you with people who are not real people". Of whom is He talking? We as Jews worshiped the Devil as God and hence God persecutes us with unreal people, devil's children, the colored people, who only pretend to be people. They are devils/beasts/snakes for God's sake. They are not real people, sons of Adam and Eve. How can you give equal rights to snakes with real people? Then go ahead and give equal rights to cows, donkeys, horses, lions and the rest of the animals. They are at least better than snakes, in that they don't hate humans and were created by God to live on earth. These snakes were not created or allowed to live on earth. They have illegally occupied the planet earth just to create trouble for their enemies, the sons of Eve. Remember Genesis: "I will create enmity between you and Eve and between your children and her seed". They are responsible for the exile of Jews from their homeland in the first place and then they maliciously planted themselves in their land and built the mosque using a fake story of a fake Prophet of a fake religion called Islam. Now when Jews want their homeland back, you debate about the indigenousness of snakes called Arabs and God fearing people called Jews. What is wrong with you? We have to annihilate this species of snakes from the earth. To start let us at least throw them out of Israel. Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism, Anti-Human and Anti-God.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

U guys avoid the most basic thing and hence can never reach a proper solution. If English/French/Russian/any real people had been living in Palestine before 1948, then we could have conversations of who is indigenous etc. Even then they would have had to vacate the land for the Jews since God had allotted this land from Nile to Euphrates (I think) to the Jews. It is written in the Bible again and again. We should and must not argue against the word of God Himself. But who are these Arabs and the rest of their colored sisters? Are they really people? They are mischievous devils whose whole purpose since the beginning is to create trouble for Mankind. Remember a verse in the Old Testament: "Since you made me jealous by worshiping Gods who are not real Gods, I will persecute you with people who are not real people". Of whom is He talking? We as Jews worshiped the Devil as God and hence God persecutes us with unreal people, devil's children, the colored people, who only pretend to be people. They are devils/beasts/snakes for God's sake. They are not real people, sons of Adam and Eve. How can you give equal rights to snakes with real people? Then go ahead and give equal rights to cows, donkeys, horses, lions and the rest of the animals. They are at least better than snakes, in that they don't hate humans and were created by God to live on earth. These snakes were not created or allowed to live on earth. They have illegally occupied the planet earth just to create trouble for their enemies, the sons of Eve. Remember Genesis: "I will create enmity between you and Eve and between your children and her seed". They are responsible for the exile of Jews from their homeland in the first place and then they maliciously planted themselves in their land and built the mosque using a fake story of a fake Prophet of a fake religion called Islam. Now when Jews want their homeland back, you debate about the indigenousness of snakes called Arabs and God fearing people called Jews. What is wrong with you? We have to annihilate this species of snakes from the earth. To start let us at least throw them out of Israel. Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism, Anti-Human and Anti-God.

Yeah right, you are just pretending to be Jewish to give us a bad name. Your post is more in line with Christian theology or Muslim theology in many ways.

For instance, you say Old Testament instead of Torah.

You say "from the Nile to Euphrates I think".

Jews never worshipped the Devil. And most Jews don't regard the snake in Eden as the Devil, like Christians do.

Some Muslim writings might have compared Jews to monkeys, but Jews don't compare other people to animals.

If you are Jewish, then you don't know our tradition.

 

[Humanity]

An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

It's common sense dude. If your "anti-zionism" involves pushing Israel into the sea or fantasies of them picking up and leaving Israel -- or visions of honor for killing Israeli citizens and innocents -------- THEN it IS anti-Jew and anti Semitic.

Does that about answer the question?

Does it answer the question? Well, yes and no...

Your answer is too 'simplistic' and, if I may say, rather 'extreme'...

Would my criticizing a speech made by Netanyahu, or the continuation of more settlers into the WB be considered anti zionist or anti semitic?

Based upon my belief that the Jews SHOULD have a homeland, have self-determination, I think that rules me out of being an anti zionist.

Based upon my NON hatred of Jews, I have many Jewish friends around the world, I think that rules me out of being an anti semite.

Yet, there are MANY people who have the same beliefs as I do who, like me, get tagged as an anti zionist, anti semite, simply because I don't believe that everything that Israel does is right...

As has already been said in a previous post, it's like walking on eggshells... It seems that ANY negative comment or criticism of Israel WILL lead to that anti zionist/anti semite tag...

 

[Coyote]

An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

Being Anti-Semite, or admitting of widely hating all Jews, is not "politically correct" anymore.

However, being against Israel is fashionable and overly acceptable.

So what do people do? They claim they don't like the Zionist regime and its treatment ofthe Palestinians, and by the way, only by going deep into it, they'll tell you Jews don't need a state, that they control the world, guilty of all mid-eadt problems, and when they're killed, it's their own fault.

But hey... Don't call them antisemites! That's the Hasbara speaking

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

I agree that when when they bring in the conspiracy theory crap (canards) or reference Jews as an entire group, it is anti-semitism, and not criticizing Israel's policies as a state.

With that I can agree.

However, I do believe that in most cases, you scratch the Anti-Zionist and find the Anti-Semite.


You can find classic example of that in this very message board.

There is that, and they enevitably bring up Jewish control of world/banking/politics

 

[TheGreatKing]

Yeah right, you are just pretending to be Jewish to give us a bad name. Your post is more in line with Christian theology or Muslim theology in many ways.

For instance, you say Old Testament instead of Torah.

You say "from the Nile to Euphrates I think".

I am supporting you and you are saying I am giving you a bad name! So what if I am a Jew or a Christian or an Angel from Heaven? I am saying the truth and that is in support of you. What is your problem?

Jews never worshipped the Devil. And most Jews don't regard the snake in Eden as the Devil, like Christians do.

Jews worshiped the Pagan Gods, right? Whether u accept it or not, those pagan gods were devils only.

Some Muslim writings might have compared Jews to monkeys, but Jews don't compare other people to animals.

U don't mind Muslims falsely calling u monkeys and u don't want to call them monkeys although they certainly are.

If you are Jewish, then you don't know our tradition.

That does not matter. Is this the test of my following your tradition? I am a human being who is sympathizing with your predicament and u are finding irrelevant faults in me. Whether u find fault in me or worship me as your Messiah, I will support u because I love u and because your cause is just and your enemies are snakes, whom everyone hates. May God bless u.

 

[Coyote]

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

Well, no. Not ANY criticism of Israel gets an anti-semitism label. And honestly, there is very little real criticism of Israel's polices and actions floating around. And this forum is a good example of that. Actually, you, Coyote, are pretty much the only pro-Palestinian poster who discusses and criticizes polices AS policies -- rather than blanket statements against "Zionists", or, let's be honest, Jews.

Just read some of the stuff on this messageboard Shusha. And I am labeled an anti-semite and Jew-hater by many. I think some here get so tired of the name calling (on both sides really) they just resort to trolling and attacking and shallow arguments.

Because I'm not Jewish, my view of what is anti-semitism might not be the same as someone who is, just like with racism - it's different when it affects you directly. When criticism of Isreal spills over into generic criticism of Jews, that's when my ears perk up. Plus Conspiracy Theory stuff. You are right though, it's difficult to get good discussion in IP because it is so emotionally vested on both sides, and, as you point out some of that emotion is anti-semitism couched as anti-zionism. Many times the topic ends up in a fistfight with anti-semites vs anti-muslims.

Pick a topic that is one of the current discussions about Israel as listed on page one of this forum:

Tunnels, for example. How many people are actually discussing whether or not destroying the tunnels is a good (moral) policy or not?

Agree. The best you can do is try to steer topics towards a better discussion - and you and a few others are very skilled at that.

 

[Coyote]

Why are we even discussing this stuff? Singling Jews out to be something "other". Separate, different.

The right to exist, supporting Israel, Zionist, apartheid, the usual trite phrases we've heard a thousand times before.

The demands made of Israel are not made of other countries. How about discussing that.

And Haaretz is hardly a source to turn to.

I find Haaretz perfectly fine as a source since it's less likely to demonize Palestinians outright, and treats them as humans.

 

[Mindful]

Why are we even discussing this stuff? Singling Jews out to be something "other". Separate, different.

The right to exist, supporting Israel, Zionist, apartheid, the usual trite phrases we've heard a thousand times before.

The demands made of Israel are not made of other countries. How about discussing that.

And Haaretz is hardly a source to turn to.

I find Haaretz perfectly fine as a source since it's less likely to demonize Palestinians outright, and treats them as humans.

Oh, I get it. lol.