'Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic'?

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An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

Being Anti-Semite, or admitting of widely hating all Jews, is not "politically correct" anymore.

However, being against Israel is fashionable and overly acceptable.


So what do people do? They claim they don't like the Zionist regime and its treatment ofthe Palestinians, and by the way, only by going deep into it, they'll tell you Jews don't need a state, that they control the world, guilty of all mid-eadt problems, and when they're killed, it's their own fault.

But hey... Don't call them antisemites! That's the Hasbara speaking:rolleyes-41:

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

I agree that when when they bring in the conspiracy theory crap (canards) or reference Jews as an entire group, it is anti-semitism, and not criticizing Israel's policies as a state.
 
An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

Being Anti-Semite, or admitting of widely hating all Jews, is not "politically correct" anymore.

However, being against Israel is fashionable and overly acceptable.


So what do people do? They claim they don't like the Zionist regime and its treatment ofthe Palestinians, and by the way, only by going deep into it, they'll tell you Jews don't need a state, that they control the world, guilty of all mid-eadt problems, and when they're killed, it's their own fault.

But hey... Don't call them antisemites! That's the Hasbara speaking:rolleyes-41:

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

I agree that when when they bring in the conspiracy theory crap (canards) or reference Jews as an entire group, it is anti-semitism, and not criticizing Israel's policies as a state.

With that I can agree.

However, I do believe that in most cases, you scratch the Anti-Zionist and find the Anti-Semite.


You can find classic example of that in this very message board.
 
Is anti-Zionism anti-semitism?

I think that is hard to answer because I do not think there is one clear definition of Zionism and the term seems to be used in many different ways and it seems to have many different meanings among Jews as well.

Haaretz has a good article on this:

Defining Zionism: The belief that Israel belongs to the entire Jewish people - Opinion

...If so, how would we define who is a Zionist, starting from the emergence of the Zionist movement as inspired by Theodor Herzl and his associates? Here is the definition: A Zionist is a person who desires or supports the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, which in the future will become the state of the Jewish people. This is based on what Herzl said: “In Basel I founded the Jewish state.”​

The key word in this definition is “state,” and its natural location is the Land of Israel because of the Jewish people’s historical link to it. Thus my grandfather’s grandfather, for example, who came to the Land of Israel from Thessaloniki in the mid-19th century, cannot be considered a Zionist. He came to settle in the Land of Israel, not to establish a state here. This is also the rule for the ancestors of Neturei Karta and other Hasidic groups that came to the Land of Israel as far back as the 17th and 18th centuries, and who remain loyal to it. Not only were these Jews not interested in establishing a Jewish state, but they include some who saw − and still see − the State of Israel as an abomination and a desecration of God’s name.

A Zionist, therefore, is a Jew who supported the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, and not necessarily one who actually settled in the land. Herzl himself and many Zionist leaders never settled in the land, yet you wouldn’t hesitate to call them Zionists. Even today, the members of Zionist federations worldwide are considered Zionists by us and by themselves, even though they don’t live in Israel.​

...Ever since the State of Israel was founded in 1948, the definition of “Zionist” has been revised, since we don’t need to establish another state. Therefore, its definition is as follows: A Zionist is a person who accepts the principle that the State of Israel doesn’t belong solely to its citizens, but to the entire Jewish people. The practical expression of this commitment is the Law of Return.

Interesting take on it, because it also points out that a lot of the issues and struggles Israel deals with really have nothing to do with Zionism but are issues facing many other countries as well.

Here is another question though - does Zionism affect territorial aquisition? Is the desire to settle the Occupied Territories with Jews an expression of Zionism as a desire to regain all of what was once the ancient Kingdom of Israel and is criticizing that anti-semitism? I would say no.

I always associated "Zionism" with "Manifest Destiny" - a concept that there was a right, given by God, to a territory.

Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be. This is my gentle way of saying, "Cut the bullshit."

Zionism is no more and no less than the will of the Jewish people for a national self-determination. Its exact equivalent is the Palestinian will for self-determination. The Tibetan will for self-determination. The Kurdish will for self-determination. The Catalan will for self-determination. The First Nations of the Americas will for self-determination.

Making it more complicated than that is just another excuse to make the Jewish will something abnormal (and often portrayed as evil) rather than just the normal, common desire for a homeland of one's own.
 
Of course it is, Zionism is the basic belief in native rights. That indigenous people shouldn't be forcefully removed from their native homeland.

Anti Zionist is clearly anti Israeli and anti Judaic, since todays Israeli's are the same native people that countless Arab Muslim pogroms attempted to eradicate from the Judaic homeland.

Your racism is once again glaringly apparent


israel+flag+waving+animation.gif
See Boston....This is the Big Zionist Lie.................Although Zionism have endeavoured to entwine Judaism as the same as Zionism.IT IS NOT at all Zionism was only created in the late 1890's and only a hope to get some sort of Jewish Homeland,during the 1920's,30's and 40's up until and after Statehood the Zionists were/are a Terrorist Organization......ANTI-ZIONISM is not Anti-Semitism at all......this is merely something the Zionists and Guys like you have concocted ........... We all know that you and your ilk are deluded.....but STOP foisting Bullshit in this arena.......
 
There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

Well, no. Not ANY criticism of Israel gets an anti-semitism label. And honestly, there is very little real criticism of Israel's polices and actions floating around. And this forum is a good example of that. Actually, you, Coyote, are pretty much the only pro-Palestinian poster who discusses and criticizes polices AS policies -- rather than blanket statements against "Zionists", or, let's be honest, Jews.

Pick a topic that is one of the current discussions about Israel as listed on page one of this forum:

Tunnels, for example. How many people are actually discussing whether or not destroying the tunnels is a good (moral) policy or not?
 
See Boston....This is the Big Zionist Lie.................Although Zionism have endeavoured to entwine Judaism as the same as Zionism.IT IS NOT at all Zionism was only created in the late 1890's and only a hope to get some sort of Jewish Homeland,during the 1920's,30's and 40's up until and after Statehood the Zionists were/are a Terrorist Organization......ANTI-ZIONISM is not Anti-Semitism at all......this is merely something the Zionists and Guys like you have concocted ........... We all know that you and your ilk are deluded.....but STOP foisting Bullshit in this arena.......

Let's take a look at this. Because this is pretty much where we are at.

Zionists have the hope of having a Jewish homeland. That is in the above statement and we Zionists agree. We have the hope of having a homeland for the Jewish people where we can bring to fulfillment our self-determination as a nation of a distinct people.

So, really let's think about this. Having a homeland is NOT an inherently evil desire. Actually its pretty common. And normally supported by the international community. It is, in fact, what the Palestinians are asking for. (As well as a whole bunch of other people -- Kurds, Catalans, Basques, Tibetans, Western Saharans, First Nations peoples, etc)

And yet, when we talk about the hope of the Jewish people for a homeland it is pockmarked with a different language that we might use for other groups of people. The hope of the Jewish people is labelled as a "lie". It is "concocted". It is "deluded". It is "bullshit".

Is the wish for a homeland by the Iroquois a lie?

Is the wish for a homeland by the Tibetans bullshit?

Is the wish for a homeland by the Catalans concocted?

Is the wish for a homeland by the Palestinians deluded?
 
An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

It's common sense dude. If your "anti-zionism" involves pushing Israel into the sea or fantasies of them picking up and leaving Israel -- or visions of honor for killing Israeli citizens and innocents -------- THEN it IS anti-Jew and anti Semitic.

Does that about answer the question?
 
With all due respect -- what Palestinians NEED is to hijack the Zionist model and start building coalitions for a Homeland. Not hating Zionists. They need to BECOME Zionists and not mob actors.
 
Why are we even discussing this stuff? Singling Jews out to be something "other". Separate, different.

The right to exist, supporting Israel, Zionist, apartheid, the usual trite phrases we've heard a thousand times before.

The demands made of Israel are not made of other countries. How about discussing that.

And Haaretz is hardly a source to turn to.
 
An interesting article...

I think the title is 'wrong' however...

I just don't buy into the 'zionist' belief that any word said against the Israeli government and policies is 'anti-semitic'...

If I were to make a negative comment about the South African government, for example, that would not make me a racist...

5 Intellectuals Smash the Anti-Zionism Is Anti-Semitic Argument

Being Anti-Semite, or admitting of widely hating all Jews, is not "politically correct" anymore.

However, being against Israel is fashionable and overly acceptable.


So what do people do? They claim they don't like the Zionist regime and its treatment ofthe Palestinians, and by the way, only by going deep into it, they'll tell you Jews don't need a state, that they control the world, guilty of all mid-eadt problems, and when they're killed, it's their own fault.

But hey... Don't call them antisemites! That's the Hasbara speaking:rolleyes-41:

There is a flip side to that though, and that is that any criticism of Israel get's the anti-semitism label. It is rather like walking on eggs.

I agree that when when they bring in the conspiracy theory crap (canards) or reference Jews as an entire group, it is anti-semitism, and not criticizing Israel's policies as a state.

With that I can agree.

However, I do believe that in most cases, you scratch the Anti-Zionist and find the Anti-Semite.


You can find classic example of that in this very message board.

Does anyone know what Israel's policies are? People think only in terms of the Palestinians.
 
Why are we even discussing this stuff? Singling Jews out to be something "other". Separate, different.

Such a great question. Why is there such a thing in the world as a special word for hating one specific group of people? Why did this come about?
 
With all due respect -- what Palestinians NEED is to hijack the Zionist model and start building coalitions for a Homeland. Not hating Zionists. They need to BECOME Zionists and not mob actors.

If you want to take it to the wire, here's the homeland.

msarabia.gif


What I see is a group of people who self identify as Palestinian being abused by MOST other Arab countries besides their gripes with Israel... Right now they are being used for shields and targets at camps in Syria. Newer Pali migrants into Jordan are also treated as "camp creatures" and respectable Arab countries like Egypt and Lebanon really don't trust them.

They NEED a Nationalist Movement. They NEED representation and organization., They NEED to be "Zionists". Instead of mob scenes, useless knifings and bombings and resistance with NO representation..

The "homeland" SHOULD involve ALL the neighbors. That means Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria AND Israel. That kind of coalition COULD carve out a homeland and HOLD it for the Palis in trust. Until they organized and FOCUSED on building a nation and abandoned their "resistance fighter -guerilla" fantasy..

They NEED to THINK like Zionists or they will become irrelevant..
 
With all due respect -- what Palestinians NEED is to hijack the Zionist model and start building coalitions for a Homeland. Not hating Zionists. They need to BECOME Zionists and not mob actors.

If you want to take it to the wire, here's the homeland.

msarabia.gif


What I see is a group of people who self identify as Palestinian being abused by MOST other Arab countries besides their gripes with Israel... Right now they are being used for shields and targets at camps in Syria. Newer Pali migrants into Jordan are also treated as "camp creatures" and respectable Arab countries like Egypt and Lebanon really don't trust them.

They NEED a Nationalist Movement. They NEED representation and organization., They NEED to be "Zionists". Instead of mob scenes, useless knifings and bombings and resistance with NO representation..

The "homeland" SHOULD involve ALL the neighbors. That means Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria AND Israel. That kind of coalition COULD carve out a homeland and HOLD it for the Palis in trust. Until they organized and FOCUSED on building a nation and abandoned their "resistance fighter -guerilla" fantasy..

They NEED to THINK like Zionists or they will become irrelevant..

You could argue that the Pals are being used by the Arabs as a form of leverage against Israel.

I wonder why there was no uproar during all the years of occupation of the West Bank by Jordan.
 
Zionism is no more and no less than the will of the Jewish people for a national self-determination.
Yeah? Like the Catholic people have the Vatican?
 
15th post
They NEED to THINK like Zionists or they will become irrelevant..

Can I like this x a million?

YES! This. They need to embrace the idea of their own Zionism.

I think the problem is one of nationhood. The British carving up the region, and inventing countries, created a mess. Not resolved to this day. Look at Iraq.

And the western notion of bringing democracy (our version) to Arab countries doesn't work either.

Nations take time to evolve. For example, it took about 1,000 years for Britain to get where it is today.
 
See Boston....This is the Big Zionist Lie.................Although Zionism have endeavoured to entwine Judaism as the same as Zionism.IT IS NOT at all Zionism was only created in the late 1890's and only a hope to get some sort of Jewish Homeland,during the 1920's,30's and 40's up until and after Statehood the Zionists were/are a Terrorist Organization......ANTI-ZIONISM is not Anti-Semitism at all......this is merely something the Zionists and Guys like you have concocted ........... We all know that you and your ilk are deluded.....but STOP foisting Bullshit in this arena.......

Let's take a look at this. Because this is pretty much where we are at.

Zionists have the hope of having a Jewish homeland. That is in the above statement and we Zionists agree. We have the hope of having a homeland for the Jewish people where we can bring to fulfillment our self-determination as a nation of a distinct people.

So, really let's think about this. Having a homeland is NOT an inherently evil desire. Actually its pretty common. And normally supported by the international community. It is, in fact, what the Palestinians are asking for. (As well as a whole bunch of other people -- Kurds, Catalans, Basques, Tibetans, Western Saharans, First Nations peoples, etc)

And yet, when we talk about the hope of the Jewish people for a homeland it is pockmarked with a different language that we might use for other groups of people. The hope of the Jewish people is labelled as a "lie". It is "concocted". It is "deluded". It is "bullshit".

Is the wish for a homeland by the Iroquois a lie?

Is the wish for a homeland by the Tibetans bullshit?

Is the wish for a homeland by the Catalans concocted?

Is the wish for a homeland by the Palestinians deluded?
You need to comprehend what I actually said.....I stated that........Zionists/Zionism have endeavoured/tried to entwine Judaism as one and the same thing

IT IS NOT......in any shape or form,that is why the Ultra Jews,Traditional Religious Jews despise Zionists,as do the more educated Secular Jews and therein lies the LIE.......................of course the Palestinians,Catalans,Basques and others want their own homeland,as they are a harmonious groups of the same peoples who have lived in the same area for millennia...............On the other hand The European Jews are not real Jews at all and have NO lineage to Abraham at all.....but Turkic and others who converted to Judaism in the middle ages.........this is the BIG ZIONIST CON......they are not Jews at all but just converts of other peoples..............they are Ashkis not Shepardic(Real) Jews.

It's like me converting to Judaism and claiming that I and my decendents are True Jewish and been around since the time of Moses.....it is ridiculous,BUT the Zionist says anyone can be a Jew and entitled to become Israeli.............Shusha where are your people from,if you did a DNA test you would be a much higher % of Mongol or Turkic or Tartar or Hungarian I can almost Guarantee it.......................I know Jewish folk who have had this done and each time they have been quite shocked.......You are not a pure bred people and neither am I but I don't go around telling people that I am Jewish if I only had a few % of Jewish blood(I have never done the test..for all I know I could be any ethnic race even Jewish for all I know)

If I found out I was...I would never be a Zionist because their history is riddled with Terrorism,Murder and Dispossession of other races including the Palestinians.....Zionism is a CULT NOT A RELIGION,and not a nice one at that.

TO All you Zionists and Pro-Zionists......Who actually ARE YOU....steve given without predudice
 
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