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America First. R U Sure?

jc456

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Last month you guys preferred a leader that Putin could do business with. But you don't give a fuck the rest of the world doesn't want to do business with Trump. Or they do but he's making them want it less and less. He's ruining our standing in the world. Fact.

You thought Obama was bad? Then you're a brain dead chimp imo.
I don't care if people get pissed at us for putting citizens first.
Obama was bad. And frankly, using an 8 year president to compare to one that has been in office for 10 days is ignorant as hell.
you're a brain dead chimp
irony
Us? I think I found one of Trump's paid chimps. You sound like you took a class from Kellyanne Conway.

Trump has done more damage in 10 days than Obama did in 8 years and it's only going to get worse.

Now I know how cons felt the last 8 years. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong but I'm sure given enough time I will be proven right.

See, I don't mind doing it your way if it will work. So I'll be fair if it's actually working or not. But you fucks said things were fine going into a great recession and said Obama sucked while he got us out. You have zero credibility. ZERO And you will make us less safe. Lower wages, etc. Watch dummy.
"you" Lol...
You keep calling me a dummy but you have yet to describe me. Just partisan stereotypes. Nice.
it's all he/she's got.
Who cares who either of you are. Are you Muslim? Black? Poor? Educated? Bet you're none of these things.
why is it important? I voted for a president I expect to do what he said. Trump is accomplishing that. You seem to have a problem with a president doing what he promised. Why?
 

jc456

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And Trump won because the majority of folks want America economics put first for a change. America first is why he won. So, chances are pretty good that is going to be what his policies are. Now see as you don't agree, you should have had a candidate that would have bolstered your views. it's how an election cycle works.
Again not disputing that Trump was duly elected. But he was elected not anointed. And the fact that he was elected, in no way lessens the apprehension even outright fear and loathing he provokes among the populace of long standing allies. And those same feelings will probably have serious long term repercussions.
he was elected for his policies. He is entitled to push his policies. You don't like them win a fking election.
See this is where you lose me. The fact that someone gets elected doesn't make him qualified, right, or even moral. I gave a clear, concise and factual opinion of the effect of a Trump presidency from the standpoint of someone who doesn't live in the US but has ties there. You get stuck on the fact that he was elected so he should be accepted. Like there is no such thing as accountability for one's actions. That was what both the original OP and my reply to it was about. The fact that what Trump says or does has actual consequences on how the world views America and will act accordingly.
first, I never ever will tell anyone they must accept anything. Trump is pushing policies the majority voted for. Sorry. you don't live here that's not my problem. I owe you shit. And the mere fact that you think you can tell me how my country ought to be run, well too fking bad. You are a nothing at this point.

Also, I get stuck on no fact. The facts are merely the facts. You are trying to adjust the facts and that's hilarious.
If trump starts ww3 we will care what other countries think.

And this guy is warning you what trumps bad ideas will produce. If you want to try go for it. But even Republicans won't go along.

And Hillary got 4 million more votes
what is it exactly that will start a war? explain your comment.
 

TNHarley

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Just admit it dude. You've always adored and love Putin.
you're one of those who think Putin is smarter than obummer eh?

Not only that you are racist moron you are a big LIAR. For your stupidity I hate Putin.
No you don't. You love pootin. You love to be pooted on.

I feel sorry for your worthless soul. I will now call you a liar.

Hey everybody. Lets all worry about what tnfartly thinks and says because he's so important.

I hear he didn't even vote so fuck him. He's not worth the shit on the bottom of my shoes.
I didn't vote for any of the main four but im the ass lol.
Corporatist war monger, a retarded ego maniac, a LWNJ and a borderline retard was the options. But IM THE IDIOT. I hear ya.
 

sealybobo

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Again not disputing that Trump was duly elected. But he was elected not anointed. And the fact that he was elected, in no way lessens the apprehension even outright fear and loathing he provokes among the populace of long standing allies. And those same feelings will probably have serious long term repercussions.
he was elected for his policies. He is entitled to push his policies. You don't like them win a fking election.
See this is where you lose me. The fact that someone gets elected doesn't make him qualified, right, or even moral. I gave a clear, concise and factual opinion of the effect of a Trump presidency from the standpoint of someone who doesn't live in the US but has ties there. You get stuck on the fact that he was elected so he should be accepted. Like there is no such thing as accountability for one's actions. That was what both the original OP and my reply to it was about. The fact that what Trump says or does has actual consequences on how the world views America and will act accordingly.
first, I never ever will tell anyone they must accept anything. Trump is pushing policies the majority voted for. Sorry. you don't live here that's not my problem. I owe you shit. And the mere fact that you think you can tell me how my country ought to be run, well too fking bad. You are a nothing at this point.

Also, I get stuck on no fact. The facts are merely the facts. You are trying to adjust the facts and that's hilarious.
If trump starts ww3 we will care what other countries think.

And this guy is warning you what trumps bad ideas will produce. If you want to try go for it. But even Republicans won't go along.

And Hillary got 4 million more votes
what is it exactly that will start a war? explain your comment.
You claimed Obama was making us less safe and now you need me to explain how Trump is making us less safe? You guys really are stupid. You make it impossible for a smart person to want to join your retarded fucking ranks.

Your boy is destabalizing the entire world and we are only 11 days in.
 

sealybobo

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you're one of those who think Putin is smarter than obummer eh?

Not only that you are racist moron you are a big LIAR. For your stupidity I hate Putin.
No you don't. You love pootin. You love to be pooted on.

I feel sorry for your worthless soul. I will now call you a liar.

Hey everybody. Lets all worry about what tnfartly thinks and says because he's so important.

I hear he didn't even vote so fuck him. He's not worth the shit on the bottom of my shoes.
I didn't vote for any of the main four but im the ass lol.
Corporatist war monger, a retarded ego maniac, a LWNJ and a borderline retard was the options. But IM THE IDIOT. I hear ya.
You didn't even vote from what you told me. So I don't even hear you. You matter not. Not even your opinion. You may as well be dead. Hell, even they vote more than you. LOL
 

bripat9643

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For 70 years, we sustained an international system of open commerce and democratic alliances that has enabled America and the West to grow and thrive. Global leadership is what made America great. We abandon it at our peril.
View attachment 109514
:dunno:
Freedom made America great. Our alliances just allowed parasites to suck of us

Sent from my SM-G935P using USMessageBoard.com mobile app
 

jc456

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he was elected for his policies. He is entitled to push his policies. You don't like them win a fking election.
See this is where you lose me. The fact that someone gets elected doesn't make him qualified, right, or even moral. I gave a clear, concise and factual opinion of the effect of a Trump presidency from the standpoint of someone who doesn't live in the US but has ties there. You get stuck on the fact that he was elected so he should be accepted. Like there is no such thing as accountability for one's actions. That was what both the original OP and my reply to it was about. The fact that what Trump says or does has actual consequences on how the world views America and will act accordingly.
first, I never ever will tell anyone they must accept anything. Trump is pushing policies the majority voted for. Sorry. you don't live here that's not my problem. I owe you shit. And the mere fact that you think you can tell me how my country ought to be run, well too fking bad. You are a nothing at this point.

Also, I get stuck on no fact. The facts are merely the facts. You are trying to adjust the facts and that's hilarious.
If trump starts ww3 we will care what other countries think.

And this guy is warning you what trumps bad ideas will produce. If you want to try go for it. But even Republicans won't go along.

And Hillary got 4 million more votes
what is it exactly that will start a war? explain your comment.
You claimed Obama was making us less safe and now you need me to explain how Trump is making us less safe? You guys really are stupid. You make it impossible for a smart person to want to join your retarded fucking ranks.

Your boy is destabalizing the entire world and we are only 11 days in.
where is it destabalized that wasn't before he took office 11 days ago? That's a pretty slick trick that countries can be destabalized by one man in 11 days. wow.
 

TNHarley

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Not only that you are racist moron you are a big LIAR. For your stupidity I hate Putin.
No you don't. You love pootin. You love to be pooted on.

I feel sorry for your worthless soul. I will now call you a liar.

Hey everybody. Lets all worry about what tnfartly thinks and says because he's so important.

I hear he didn't even vote so fuck him. He's not worth the shit on the bottom of my shoes.
I didn't vote for any of the main four but im the ass lol.
Corporatist war monger, a retarded ego maniac, a LWNJ and a borderline retard was the options. But IM THE IDIOT. I hear ya.
You didn't even vote from what you told me. So I don't even hear you. You matter not. Not even your opinion. You may as well be dead. Hell, even they vote more than you. LOL
I didn't vote for any of those you mentioned.
Is a discussion based on reality too complicated for you?
 

Darkwind

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I like Kraut but he's wrong on this one, he was wrong on a lot of things during the election
Is the reason for our many alliances and bolstering the free world no longer existent? Are we safe to withdraw? I am not afraid of Muslim refugees, but I AM afraid of losing our alliances around the world. Maybe Trump is capable of keeping our friends while no longer paying for that friendship. But I can't imagine why they would.
Any friend you have to pay to be your friend is no friend
When it comes to standing together against a threat to freedom, who cares why they're friends?
what good is it to anyone if we have to beggar ourselves in order to meet this one-sided alliance.
 
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Darkwind

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“The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed all across the world.”
Damn right! We got less rich, so poor countries could get less poor. Fuck exceptionalism.
And why did we do that, TN? What does Krauthammer say is behind it? Is the reason for that now gone? I guess we'll find out.
I don't agree with Krauthammer much of the time, but I respect his smarts. He's been studying this stuff a long, long time and he doesn't form his opinion based on the latest fad from the Republican party.
I said fuck exceptionalism. And if you think what we have now is "free trade", you are mistaken. Our trade deals are corporate whores.
Our rich get richer and our middle class gets poorer. No thanks.
I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat. Of course trade deals enter into that, I realize they do. But I don't think Krauthammer is primarily talking about trade, is he?
I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat.
Who comes to the aid of the top dog?
Also, even if we pissed off the entire EU and we got invaded by Russia AND China (only way we would get messed up) they would STILL come to us. If we fell like that, they would be next.
The entire OP is a biased hack job.
But I will give the hack credit.. the markets crashed just like he said they woul.....
oh wait, nevermind :D
Boom: Dow hits 20,000 for first time ever
I don't get it. You think if we stop extending financial and military aid to our allies, that they won't go somewhere else (fill in the blank) for it? You think they'll follow us anyway? If we were invaded by Russia it would be AFTER all the EU had fallen, TN. After we were no longer interested in helping them. That's how I see it.
It is becoming amusing that the lengths people will go to in order to justify our being the world police.

If they decide to go their own way, good for them. But they can also pay for their own defense. I wonder how long their vaunted social programs will survive without our largess.
 

sealybobo

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See this is where you lose me. The fact that someone gets elected doesn't make him qualified, right, or even moral. I gave a clear, concise and factual opinion of the effect of a Trump presidency from the standpoint of someone who doesn't live in the US but has ties there. You get stuck on the fact that he was elected so he should be accepted. Like there is no such thing as accountability for one's actions. That was what both the original OP and my reply to it was about. The fact that what Trump says or does has actual consequences on how the world views America and will act accordingly.
first, I never ever will tell anyone they must accept anything. Trump is pushing policies the majority voted for. Sorry. you don't live here that's not my problem. I owe you shit. And the mere fact that you think you can tell me how my country ought to be run, well too fking bad. You are a nothing at this point.

Also, I get stuck on no fact. The facts are merely the facts. You are trying to adjust the facts and that's hilarious.
If trump starts ww3 we will care what other countries think.

And this guy is warning you what trumps bad ideas will produce. If you want to try go for it. But even Republicans won't go along.

And Hillary got 4 million more votes
what is it exactly that will start a war? explain your comment.
You claimed Obama was making us less safe and now you need me to explain how Trump is making us less safe? You guys really are stupid. You make it impossible for a smart person to want to join your retarded fucking ranks.

Your boy is destabalizing the entire world and we are only 11 days in.
where is it destabalized that wasn't before he took office 11 days ago? That's a pretty slick trick that countries can be destabalized by one man in 11 days. wow.
Just like you downplayed the great recession Bush created, you will downplay every bad decision Trump makes and you will defend every stupid idea that comes out of his head. You are his twitter bitch. Basically no matter what Trump does, including lobbing a nuclear weapon, your reply will most certainly always be "ahhhh, what's the big deal". But oh my god did you make a big deal out of everything Obama did like Ben Ghazi! Remember that? Ben Ghazi!!! How many Ben Ghazi's will you have to defend in the next 8 years?

And you obstructed Obama every step of the way so expect opposition.

During the presidential campaign, Eliot Cohen helped lead a group of Republican foreign policy and national security veterans warning about the dangers of a Trump presidency.

Former State Dept. Adviser Paints Gloomy Picture Of Trump's First Week

But retards like you didn't listen.

Cohen, who served as top adviser to the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice during the George W. Bush administration, led in the writing and signing of letters that attacked not Trump's policies, but his temperament.

"That is why with a lot of friends and colleagues, we were willing to go out there and do something that did not come naturally, which was to write these and circulate these two letters denouncing the candidate of the party I belong to."

Now throw the guy under the bus like you do every Republican that speaks out and tells the truth.
 

sealybobo

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And why did we do that, TN? What does Krauthammer say is behind it? Is the reason for that now gone? I guess we'll find out.
I don't agree with Krauthammer much of the time, but I respect his smarts. He's been studying this stuff a long, long time and he doesn't form his opinion based on the latest fad from the Republican party.
I said fuck exceptionalism. And if you think what we have now is "free trade", you are mistaken. Our trade deals are corporate whores.
Our rich get richer and our middle class gets poorer. No thanks.
I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat. Of course trade deals enter into that, I realize they do. But I don't think Krauthammer is primarily talking about trade, is he?
I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat.
Who comes to the aid of the top dog?
Also, even if we pissed off the entire EU and we got invaded by Russia AND China (only way we would get messed up) they would STILL come to us. If we fell like that, they would be next.
The entire OP is a biased hack job.
But I will give the hack credit.. the markets crashed just like he said they woul.....
oh wait, nevermind :D
Boom: Dow hits 20,000 for first time ever
I don't get it. You think if we stop extending financial and military aid to our allies, that they won't go somewhere else (fill in the blank) for it? You think they'll follow us anyway? If we were invaded by Russia it would be AFTER all the EU had fallen, TN. After we were no longer interested in helping them. That's how I see it.
It is becoming amusing that the lengths people will go to in order to justify our being the world police.

If they decide to go their own way, good for them. But they can also pay for their own defense. I wonder how long their vaunted social programs will survive without our largess.

I wanted to stop being the world superpower too and at least right now I still would love to stop spending so much on defense and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. But it's also true that means we give up being the main influencer on world events. So if Russia is invading Crimea, we are just like Australia or Canada. We don't get to bully Russia and make them do what we want. Russia won't care what we think.

And isolationism might cost us jobs and cost companies money. See this is the problem with Republicans. They make us liberals argue anti free trade when the truth is, you'd have to be a god damn fool to be 100% against free trade. What us liberals really wanted was for trade to be properly regulated. Same as we want the energy companies and healthcare giants and Wallstreet properly regulated.
 

forkup

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My point is the same as it was when I first replied to the OP. That Trumps America First policy coupled with his rhetoric and unwillingness to adhere to what most of the western nations consider core values, rapidly will erode America's influence abroad and will likely destabilise the world. Read my original reply maybe, that does explain it in more detail.
And Trump won because the majority of folks want America economics put first for a change. America first is why he won. So, chances are pretty good that is going to be what his policies are. Now see as you don't agree, you should have had a candidate that would have bolstered your views. it's how an election cycle works.
Again not disputing that Trump was duly elected. But he was elected not anointed. And the fact that he was elected, in no way lessens the apprehension even outright fear and loathing he provokes among the populace of long standing allies. And those same feelings will probably have serious long term repercussions.
he was elected for his policies. He is entitled to push his policies. You don't like them win a fking election.
See this is where you lose me. The fact that someone gets elected doesn't make him qualified, right, or even moral. I gave a clear, concise and factual opinion of the effect of a Trump presidency from the standpoint of someone who doesn't live in the US but has ties there. You get stuck on the fact that he was elected so he should be accepted. Like there is no such thing as accountability for one's actions. That was what both the original OP and my reply to it was about. The fact that what Trump says or does has actual consequences on how the world views America and will act accordingly.
No one needs to accept or approve of the president. Where did you get that from? Obama was never liked by the right, some waited and hoped for the best but he soon made it clear he was forwarding a leftist agenda as much as possible.

That pissed off a lot of folks and elected Trump to turn it around. We don't throw elections away because leftists are not happy their agenda is going through the shredder. Trump's supporters are behind him more than ever ...
because he's doing what he said he would do.

The leftists lied when they said he duped us. But lies are all they ever have. The fact they they are howling is proof that good work is being done. What part of that is too big for you to grasp?
It's not that Trump leans right that has the world worried. As you can guess, I lean left and I don't like it when the US chooses a Republican president, but Republican presidents have never been a dealbreaker for its European Allies and the world as a whole. It's his rhetoric, impulsiveness, pettiness, belligerency towards criticism, unwillingness to listen to advice he doesn't agree with, his sometimes unbelievable tendency to completely lose sight of the big picture. All these things are a problem individually let alone put together. Even if you don't believe it's true, believe that that is how it is perceived abroad. And that perception inevitably leads to American interests being hurt. I could answer to your post of Trump proving that he hasn't duped you,but that falls out of what this OP is about in my opinion.
 

Darkwind

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I said fuck exceptionalism. And if you think what we have now is "free trade", you are mistaken. Our trade deals are corporate whores.
Our rich get richer and our middle class gets poorer. No thanks.
I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat. Of course trade deals enter into that, I realize they do. But I don't think Krauthammer is primarily talking about trade, is he?
I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat.
Who comes to the aid of the top dog?
Also, even if we pissed off the entire EU and we got invaded by Russia AND China (only way we would get messed up) they would STILL come to us. If we fell like that, they would be next.
The entire OP is a biased hack job.
But I will give the hack credit.. the markets crashed just like he said they woul.....
oh wait, nevermind :D
Boom: Dow hits 20,000 for first time ever
I don't get it. You think if we stop extending financial and military aid to our allies, that they won't go somewhere else (fill in the blank) for it? You think they'll follow us anyway? If we were invaded by Russia it would be AFTER all the EU had fallen, TN. After we were no longer interested in helping them. That's how I see it.
It is becoming amusing that the lengths people will go to in order to justify our being the world police.

If they decide to go their own way, good for them. But they can also pay for their own defense. I wonder how long their vaunted social programs will survive without our largess.

I wanted to stop being the world superpower too and at least right now I still would love to stop spending so much on defense and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. But it's also true that means we give up being the main influencer on world events. So if Russia is invading Crimea, we are just like Australia or Canada. We don't get to bully Russia and make them do what we want. Russia won't care what we think.

And isolationism might cost us jobs and cost companies money. See this is the problem with Republicans. They make us liberals argue anti free trade when the truth is, you'd have to be a god damn fool to be 100% against free trade. What us liberals really wanted was for trade to be properly regulated. Same as we want the energy companies and healthcare giants and Wallstreet properly regulated.
The problem is, republicans are not arguing anti-free trade. They are simply saying in any agreements with other nations, our interests are to be looked to first.

Quite frankly, I think that every nation should be responsible for its own defense, but at the moment, all any of the NATO nations have to do is provide 2% of their GDP toward NATO.

They won't even pay that much and I am tired of carrying them on our backs.
 

forkup

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So you don't think any of the videos support my assertion that he demonises huge groups? Granted I didn't post a video of him doing it during rallies but that doesn't change the fact that to Europeans it looks an awful lot like the rhetoric Hitler used to spew, he just changed the enemy from Jews, to Muslims and illegal immigrants. If you don't think it does that, explain your reasoning please?


1. Jews really were NOT secretly in control of the world.

2. Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions taking jobs, and raising crime. And muslims really are killing us.
Yes Hispanics are really crossing the border by the millions. They are taking jobs, but mostly jobs that aren't getting filled by American workers, I've seen studies that even give them a net benefit to the US economy. You can probably cite studies that deny it but that's neither here nor there.Can you show a study that confirms that Mexicans coming over are predominantly criminals, which is what he claimed? No Muslims aren't killing people, terrorists are. This is exactly the broad brush that verifies my OP of him demonising large groups of people.



1. The idea that the illegals are only taking jobs Americans don't want it bs. l've done many of those jobs that Americans supposedly don't do. And my co-workers were all Americans.

2. The government is careful to NOT track crime by illegals, so data is spotty. But indications are strong that illegals bring a shit load of crime and drugs with them.

3. I'm sure the gays in Orlando, or the girls of Rotherham are grateful that you are so very careful with the feelings of Muslims, to the point of putting that ahead of the safety of your fellow citizens. How are Belgium jews loving the rise in Muslim population?
1. I said mostly not only and I'm sorry to tell you but anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it. For instance I can imagine someone working in Illinois will have less immigrants going for a job then someone living in New Mexico.
2. Ok so you have by your own admission spotty data that completely verifies."When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best," he said. "They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.".?
3. Hurting anybodies feelings doesn't come into it. ISIS is trying to sell the story of," it us against them." By demonising the entire religion, you are effectively proving them right. There are plenty of Muslims moderate or otherwise that just want to get along. But if you confirm the fears and wariness they have of the west you will push a lot of them in the camp of ISIS.



1. If the AMERICANS of Illinois are doing those jobs, and the AMERICANS of New Mexico are NOT, then it is because the illegals are talking those jobs.

2. We have to make decisions on spotty data all the time. Trump gave you his analysis of the data. It agrees with mine.

3. Discussing the reality of importing a sizable group of Muslims is not demonizing them, it is talking about the truth. And if the truth is all it takes to "push a lot of them in the camp of ISIS" then importing them was/is a huge mistake.

I asked how the jews of Belgium were liking the rise in Muslim population. You didn't answer. What about the gays?
1. Prove it. That simple. You provided anecdotal evidence and try to make a general assumption out of it. You basically are claiming that there are plenty of Americans willing to pick oranges, or garden or do a lot of the low payed menial labour jobs. I live in a country the size of Maryland but I don't presume that my economic reality is the same reality that exist 100 miles away, in fact I know it isn't. In Illinois there might be a high enough unemployment that those kinds of jobs become attractive, while in New Mexico there might be a shortage of labour. Point is if jobs don't get filled the economy hurts.
2. I can only say that that analyses sounds highly unlikely.
3. You seem to blow right past the point here. First of I know, saying that bringing Muslims in causes terrorism is false. Large groups of Muslims came to my country in the seventies, that didn't cause terrorism. Secondly, your argument seems to be that if people become terrorist because I confirm their prejudices, those prejudices were true. One is the result of the other not the other way around. And to answer your question. The Jews don't like it very much, the gays don't really care as far as I can tell. But then again Jews and Muslims have lived together here for 40 years, without it causing major riots. In a stable society, having different or even hostile beliefs doesn't automatically lead to violence.
 

forkup

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Yes I am. I'm probably one of the few people on this board that has been known to concede a point. The trouble is you will have to be able to give me ironclad argumentation. Can you do that?


I note that you talk of the Wall as though it was the sole move to deal with the Illegal immigration problem. This is the exact opposite of the truth. Trump has numerous posted plans for addressing the problem from increasing the number of ICE agents to punishing employers of illegals, to the Wall.
You noted correctly. The wall is the most visible and therefore the most scary part of his plans. I note that you didn't answer the premise that the root cause of this kind of immigration is economical, and that Trumps plan inevitably worsens the Mexicans economical situation, creating more people who want to cross.
a wall is scary? why is that? I didn't know a structure that just stands still is capable of such a thing.
In general Europeans don't like the symbolism of walls, we've had some bad experiences with walls. The structure stands still but it represent or a physical barrier between yourself and undesirables ( ghettos), or a barrier between you and a country you deem dangerous ( Berlin wall), there is a reason that a piece of the Berlin wall is at the CIA headquarters. A physical reminder of something the world deemed reprehensible.
Forkup, I'm agreeing with most of what you say, but Europe is building walls or imposing more controls on their borders because of the immigrant crisis. I do feel sorry for border control agents with 2000 miles of border to patrol and most of it just wide open with no fence or wall or anything to stop folks from just wading over. Or walking in. The increase in border personnel and cracking down on employers employing illegals will be just as effective, though, as a "big beautiful 30' high wall."
This map shows how much the refugee crisis is dividing Europe
You are right it is dividing Europe and it will probably lead to a jolt to the right in quite a few European Nations. Something I'm personally opposed to. On the other hand that still won't mean that Europe will embrace Trump. Like I said in my previous post, the way he got elected and his approach to the problems is considered scary.
 
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OldLady

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I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat. Of course trade deals enter into that, I realize they do. But I don't think Krauthammer is primarily talking about trade, is he?
I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat.
Who comes to the aid of the top dog?
Also, even if we pissed off the entire EU and we got invaded by Russia AND China (only way we would get messed up) they would STILL come to us. If we fell like that, they would be next.
The entire OP is a biased hack job.
But I will give the hack credit.. the markets crashed just like he said they woul.....
oh wait, nevermind :D
Boom: Dow hits 20,000 for first time ever
I don't get it. You think if we stop extending financial and military aid to our allies, that they won't go somewhere else (fill in the blank) for it? You think they'll follow us anyway? If we were invaded by Russia it would be AFTER all the EU had fallen, TN. After we were no longer interested in helping them. That's how I see it.
It is becoming amusing that the lengths people will go to in order to justify our being the world police.

If they decide to go their own way, good for them. But they can also pay for their own defense. I wonder how long their vaunted social programs will survive without our largess.

I wanted to stop being the world superpower too and at least right now I still would love to stop spending so much on defense and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. But it's also true that means we give up being the main influencer on world events. So if Russia is invading Crimea, we are just like Australia or Canada. We don't get to bully Russia and make them do what we want. Russia won't care what we think.

And isolationism might cost us jobs and cost companies money. See this is the problem with Republicans. They make us liberals argue anti free trade when the truth is, you'd have to be a god damn fool to be 100% against free trade. What us liberals really wanted was for trade to be properly regulated. Same as we want the energy companies and healthcare giants and Wallstreet properly regulated.
The problem is, republicans are not arguing anti-free trade. They are simply saying in any agreements with other nations, our interests are to be looked to first.

Quite frankly, I think that every nation should be responsible for its own defense, but at the moment, all any of the NATO nations have to do is provide 2% of their GDP toward NATO.

They won't even pay that much and I am tired of carrying them on our backs.
It doesn't seem unfair to expect them to pay their 2%. I agree, unless there is some very good reason why they don't. Although, I thought a while back I heard someone say that it isn't really coughing up money--it's the amount of assets they send as forces? Or something like that. And with our current debt, maybe we should be at 2% as well. That would still be a lot.
 
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OldLady

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I note that you talk of the Wall as though it was the sole move to deal with the Illegal immigration problem. This is the exact opposite of the truth. Trump has numerous posted plans for addressing the problem from increasing the number of ICE agents to punishing employers of illegals, to the Wall.
You noted correctly. The wall is the most visible and therefore the most scary part of his plans. I note that you didn't answer the premise that the root cause of this kind of immigration is economical, and that Trumps plan inevitably worsens the Mexicans economical situation, creating more people who want to cross.
a wall is scary? why is that? I didn't know a structure that just stands still is capable of such a thing.
In general Europeans don't like the symbolism of walls, we've had some bad experiences with walls. The structure stands still but it represent or a physical barrier between yourself and undesirables ( ghettos), or a barrier between you and a country you deem dangerous ( Berlin wall), there is a reason that a piece of the Berlin wall is at the CIA headquarters. A physical reminder of something the world deemed reprehensible.
Forkup, I'm agreeing with most of what you say, but Europe is building walls or imposing more controls on their borders because of the immigrant crisis. I do feel sorry for border control agents with 2000 miles of border to patrol and most of it just wide open with no fence or wall or anything to stop folks from just wading over. Or walking in. The increase in border personnel and cracking down on employers employing illegals will be just as effective, though, as a "big beautiful 30' high wall."
This map shows how much the refugee crisis is dividing Europe
You are right it is dividing Europe and it will probably lead to a jolt to the right in quite a few European Nations. Something I'm personally opposed to. On the other hand that still won't mean that Europe will embrace Trump. Like I said in my previous post, the way he got elected and his approach to the problems is considered scary.
I'm with you on that, for sure. I hope for the best, but his foreign policy ideas have always worried me. I never realized before that the world had such a lot to say about our President, though, or that they really cared one way or the other most of the time. Now the immigrant ban, of course that would cause comment, but other than that, why is it their business or anything they care about?
 

forkup

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You noted correctly. The wall is the most visible and therefore the most scary part of his plans. I note that you didn't answer the premise that the root cause of this kind of immigration is economical, and that Trumps plan inevitably worsens the Mexicans economical situation, creating more people who want to cross.
a wall is scary? why is that? I didn't know a structure that just stands still is capable of such a thing.
In general Europeans don't like the symbolism of walls, we've had some bad experiences with walls. The structure stands still but it represent or a physical barrier between yourself and undesirables ( ghettos), or a barrier between you and a country you deem dangerous ( Berlin wall), there is a reason that a piece of the Berlin wall is at the CIA headquarters. A physical reminder of something the world deemed reprehensible.
Forkup, I'm agreeing with most of what you say, but Europe is building walls or imposing more controls on their borders because of the immigrant crisis. I do feel sorry for border control agents with 2000 miles of border to patrol and most of it just wide open with no fence or wall or anything to stop folks from just wading over. Or walking in. The increase in border personnel and cracking down on employers employing illegals will be just as effective, though, as a "big beautiful 30' high wall."
This map shows how much the refugee crisis is dividing Europe
You are right it is dividing Europe and it will probably lead to a jolt to the right in quite a few European Nations. Something I'm personally opposed to. On the other hand that still won't mean that Europe will embrace Trump. Like I said in my previous post, the way he got elected and his approach to the problems is considered scary.
I'm with you on that, for sure. I hope for the best, but his foreign policy ideas have always worried me. I never realized before that the world had such a lot to say about our President, though, or that they really cared one way or the other most of the time. Now the immigrant ban, of course that would cause comment, but other than that, why is it their business or anything they care about?
Because the US economy is the economy that leads the way. Because without a stable America the rest of the world becomes less stable. I'll show you a dutch video that is satirical but illuminating.
 

Darkwind

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I'm more concerned about the foreign relations piece and how it effects us if there is a serious military threat.
Who comes to the aid of the top dog?
Also, even if we pissed off the entire EU and we got invaded by Russia AND China (only way we would get messed up) they would STILL come to us. If we fell like that, they would be next.
The entire OP is a biased hack job.
But I will give the hack credit.. the markets crashed just like he said they woul.....
oh wait, nevermind :D
Boom: Dow hits 20,000 for first time ever
I don't get it. You think if we stop extending financial and military aid to our allies, that they won't go somewhere else (fill in the blank) for it? You think they'll follow us anyway? If we were invaded by Russia it would be AFTER all the EU had fallen, TN. After we were no longer interested in helping them. That's how I see it.
It is becoming amusing that the lengths people will go to in order to justify our being the world police.

If they decide to go their own way, good for them. But they can also pay for their own defense. I wonder how long their vaunted social programs will survive without our largess.

I wanted to stop being the world superpower too and at least right now I still would love to stop spending so much on defense and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. But it's also true that means we give up being the main influencer on world events. So if Russia is invading Crimea, we are just like Australia or Canada. We don't get to bully Russia and make them do what we want. Russia won't care what we think.

And isolationism might cost us jobs and cost companies money. See this is the problem with Republicans. They make us liberals argue anti free trade when the truth is, you'd have to be a god damn fool to be 100% against free trade. What us liberals really wanted was for trade to be properly regulated. Same as we want the energy companies and healthcare giants and Wallstreet properly regulated.
The problem is, republicans are not arguing anti-free trade. They are simply saying in any agreements with other nations, our interests are to be looked to first.

Quite frankly, I think that every nation should be responsible for its own defense, but at the moment, all any of the NATO nations have to do is provide 2% of their GDP toward NATO.

They won't even pay that much and I am tired of carrying them on our backs.
It doesn't seem unfair to expect them to pay their 2%. I agree, unless there is some very good reason why they don't. Although, I thought a while back I heard someone say that it isn't really coughing up money--it's the amount of assets they send as forces? Or something like that. And with our current debt, maybe we should be at 2% as well. That would still be a lot.
I don't recall the number, but we are at 2% for NATO and more, in addition to the 25% we supply the UN.

The 2% number is a cash value in addition to support troops to the cause.
 

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