A Question Regarding Religion in America

[AVG-JOE]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My personal belief is that you three groups in particular are wrong. This, of course is just my humble opinion.

I believe that if there is a God of this world, He / She / It is much larger than the brief and small window into the history of life on earth that any of your 'holy' books reveal.

That being said, as an American I would defend your rights to be wrong to my last breath.

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

Perhaps in your humble opinion, I am wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you have that right.

-Joe

 

[Avatar4321]

Of course Id defend your right to be wrong.

I would, however, ask you what you meant about God being bigger than what the Holy Books covers. God has paid the price for all mankind to be redeemed. I dont know how much bigger is possible.

 

[Ralph]

Why should one trust in the Holy Bible and recognize it as a valid source of God's revealed and written word? Foremost, anyone that professes to the religion of Christianity is admonished to worship in Spirit and Truth, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must do so in Spirit and Truth." -- John 4:24. Truth is not validated by blindly accepting anything without placing it to the TEST/PROVING, another admonished trait of the Christian ( 1 Thess. 5:12, 1 John 4:1). There are more than empirical findings of fact to consider when establishing truth (One has REASON, LOGIC, and Prima Facie conclusions to consider) .....just as the founders of this nation realized, a great many things are SELF EVIDENT.

The Holy Bible should be accepted over other religious books, or anyone's simple ad hominem beliefs, because no other holy book can amass the evidence for supernatural origin that the Holy Bible can. Following is a list of reasons to accept the Bible to be what it self professes to be....THE TRUTH.

1.) It claims to be from God. That in itself is not a conformation of its claim, nor does that claim prove anything, but the claim is something that we should look for. Logically, would God send His revelation to man.....anonymously?

2.) It is based in history, not in the subjective experience of one individual. That opens it up to being tested. It can be proven or disproved.

3.) It contains the highest and purest moral teachings. They remain unsurpassed in their simplicity, applicability, and profundity.

4.) It contains prophecies that are made and proven to be fulfilled. They surpass the possibility of human or natural powers to foresee or bring about.

5.) It has a sublime ( awe inspiring) unity about it in every way -- doctrine, progression of thought, story line, theme, details, structure....etc.

6.) It has been proven to be accurate in every way -- historically, geographically, scientifically, etc. As diligently as its critics and skeptics have tried for centuries, there has never been "empirically" proven to be one flaw or contradiction to exist in the Bible that would establish it as less than the truth that it professes to be. Yet it is all to human to "err".

7.) It contains medical and scientific knowledge ahead of its time. The Bible did not partake of its contemporary medical and scientific ignorance....as was historically witnessed in humanity.

8.) It has had an immeasurably profound impact on the world and always in a positive manner......whenever practiced FAITHFULLY.

9.) It has the best textual sources of any book of antiquity. That is, we can trace its history back to its beginnings more accurately, and with greater ease of corroboration than any major book of antiquity.

10.) It contains a reasonable view of God, man, and truth.

11.) It has been proven to be indestructible. Despite the fact that its most powerful, rapid, and scholarly opponents have been trying to do away with it before the ink was dry on the first page.

12.) It is always current in its presentations of the truth...what was true in the 1st century is just as true today, as truth does not evolve as does society. Last year the Book of the Month Club asked 2000 of its members what book most influenced their lives, the Bible was number. It is one of the best selling books of history, and remains so today.

13.) It addresses our fundamental questions, and gives answers rather than waiting for future validation....such as, why suffering exists, where did we come from, what is our destiny, how did the universe begin, how will it end..etc. It even explains the meaning of man's lives purpose. The fact tht we were created as servants to God, and are never truly happy in this physical life until we validate that purpose.

14.) It fulfills our spiritual, social, psychological, and emotional needs.

15.) It is incredibly brief, although it is set forth as a seminal (gestating, growing work) book from the Creator, while men are notorious for their verbosity in all such matters...as they demand the accolade of their fellow men.

16.) It is based upon thousands of eyewitnesses throughout its history.

17.) It portrays its heroes in all their humanity...flaws and all. Unlike the skeletons hidden in the historical closets of every nation on earth...even ours. Thus, it is proven to be unbiased in the record it presents....the good, the bad and the ugly are all presented, unlike man.

{K. Meyers)

 

[Kalam]

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

Yep.

 

[Avatar4321]

Why should one trust in the Holy Bible and recognize it as a valid source of God's revealed and written word? Foremost, anyone that professes to the religion of Christianity is admonished to worship in Spirit and Truth, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must do so in Spirit and Truth." -- John 4:24. Truth is not validated by blindly accepting anything without placing it to the TEST/PROVING, another admonished trait of the Christian ( 1 Thess. 5:12, 1 John 4:1). There are more than empirical findings of fact to consider when establishing truth (One has REASON, LOGIC, and Prima Facie conclusions to consider) .....just as the founders of this nation realized, a great many things are SELF EVIDENT.

If you are triyng to say that the Bible being the truth is self evident, id have to disagree. if it was self evident we wouldnt be sent out to preach and bring people to the truth. The Bible would do it on its own.

However, regardless, what the heck does this have to do with the original question?

The Holy Bible should be accepted over other religious books, or anyone's simple ad hominem beliefs, because no other holy book can amass the evidence for supernatural origin that the Holy Bible can. Following is a list of reasons to accept the Bible to be what it self professes to be....THE TRUTH.

Does the Bible claim supernatural origin? I thought it simply claimed to be the recorded testimonies of men who were inspired of God. I dont think writing down personal experience a supernatural origin.

And you're wrong. The Book of Mormon relies solely on evidence for super natural origin. Even moreso than the Bible due to it being translated by the power of God, seen through the ministering of angels, and due to the promise in it that all can know whether its true through the Holy Spirit.

This is not to say that one book is greater than the other, merely one has a much more supernatural origin while the other came about through the quite inspiration of writers of generations of time.

1.) It claims to be from God. That in itself is not a conformation of its claim, nor does that claim prove anything, but the claim is something that we should look for. Logically, would God send His revelation to man.....anonymously?

that is of course assuming God sends revelation to man. He does of course, but you are dealing with people who dont accept that premise so you need to convince them of that.

You are also left with a major problem. If God revealed Himself through revelation in the past, why do you proclaim that He has changed and no longer does so now?

2.) It is based in history, not in the subjective experience of one individual. That opens it up to being tested. It can be proven or disproved.

Not if you understand anything about history. History is not as concrete as you might think. There are alot of things in history we know absolutely nothing about. People argue about what happens in history all the time. I dont see how history could possibly prove anything because people dont universally accept what happened in the past. We take what we do know about the past on faith.

3.) It contains the highest and purest moral teachings. They remain unsurpassed in their simplicity, applicability, and profundity.

While I certainly believe the Bible and strive to live its teachings, I dont think this is necessarily accurate. How do we determine what are the highest and purest moral teachings? Some people might point to Israelite genocide as an example of rather poor moral teachings. Which moral teachings do you think are unsurpassed?

4.) It contains prophecies that are made and proven to be fulfilled. They surpass the possibility of human or natural powers to foresee or bring about.

So does the Book of Mormon. Im sure Muslims claim the Quran does the same. The Jews believe in the Old Testament, what makes the Christian version of it correct?

5.) It has a sublime ( awe inspiring) unity about it in every way -- doctrine, progression of thought, story line, theme, details, structure....etc.

Really? Because it seems to me that alot of what was compiled was totally random. Not to mention you have to ignore the history of how it was compiled to reach that conclusion. You have to ignore that every volume of scripture that didnt fit within the paradign of the compiles was not placed in the Bible. What makes the Gospel of Thomas less valuable than Matthew? How did they determine this and why should we accept their determinations as the final authority?

6.) It has been proven to be accurate in every way -- historically, geographically, scientifically, etc. As diligently as its critics and skeptics have tried for centuries, there has never been "empirically" proven to be one flaw or contradiction to exist in the Bible that would establish it as less than the truth that it professes to be. Yet it is all to human to "err".

So science has proven the accuracy of the Resurrection of Christ? It's proved that Moses parted the Red Sea?

Why do you put your faith in the sciences rather in the God who created Heaven and Earth? My faith comes from my witness from the Holy Spirit, not from science. Science didnt give me my faith and it cant take it away. If you rely on science as your rationalization for faith, sooner or later you are going to lose your faith because science changes. The Holy Spirit doesnt.

7.) It contains medical and scientific knowledge ahead of its time. The Bible did not partake of its contemporary medical and scientific ignorance....as was historically witnessed in humanity.

Ive read the Bible many times, I dont see any medical advice in it. Nor do I see any scientific theory. I dont expect to see either. So youll have to elaborate more on this one before I can accurately agree or disagree with you regarding this.

8.) It has had an immeasurably profound impact on the world and always in a positive manner......whenever practiced FAITHFULLY.

i would agree, but I could easily see how some people might disagree.

9.) It has the best textual sources of any book of antiquity. That is, we can trace its history back to its beginnings more accurately, and with greater ease of corroboration than any major book of antiquity.

Im not sure I agree with this. As long as we lack originals, this is merely a hypothesis. One I dont find very convincing.

10.) It contains a reasonable view of God, man, and truth.

Reasonable? By what standard? Who decides what is reasonable?

And why do we want reasonable? Id rather have the truth even if it was foolish to most people than a reasonable lie.

11.) It has been proven to be indestructible. Despite the fact that its most powerful, rapid, and scholarly opponents have been trying to do away with it before the ink was dry on the first page.

Who exactly has tried to do away with it? How do you know they havent succeeded? And how the heck can you say its industructible when athiests have burned bibles before?

12.) It is always current in its presentations of the truth...what was true in the 1st century is just as true today, as truth does not evolve as does society. Last year the Book of the Month Club asked 2000 of its members what book most influenced their lives, the Bible was number. It is one of the best selling books of history, and remains so today.

So the Book of the Month club determines its true? Sales indicate truth? So i guess Harry Potter is true because its such a popular book?

And I disagree that society evolves. I think society is just as it was before and it always will be.

13.) It addresses our fundamental questions, and gives answers rather than waiting for future validation....such as, why suffering exists, where did we come from, what is our destiny, how did the universe begin, how will it end..etc. It even explains the meaning of man's lives purpose. The fact tht we were created as servants to God, and are never truly happy in this physical life until we validate that purpose.

Okay, Why does suffering exist? Where did we come from? What is our destiny? How did the universe begin? How will it end? What is the purpose of life?

if the Bible answers these questions so conclusively, why does no one seem to know the answers?

14.) It fulfills our spiritual, social, psychological, and emotional needs.

It might fulfill yours, but I know many whose needs are not fulfilled by it at all. That seems like a very subjective standard.

15.) It is incredibly brief, although it is set forth as a seminal (gestating, growing work) book from the Creator, while men are notorious for their verbosity in all such matters...as they demand the accolade of their fellow men.

Brief??? i dont know many 1500 page brief books.

Also, I was under the impression you believed the Bible was the only book from the Creator. What other books do you believe came from God?

16.) It is based upon thousands of eyewitnesses throughout its history.

So it claims. Im not saying its wrong, but eyewitnesses long dead dont have the impact living eyewitnesses do.

17.) It portrays its heroes in all their humanity...flaws and all. Unlike the skeletons hidden in the historical closets of every nation on earth...even ours. Thus, it is proven to be unbiased in the record it presents....the good, the bad and the ugly are all presented, unlike man.

I disagree. Christ had no flaws. And it displayed His humanity without them.

Even so, I dont see how that proves the Bible true. All stories have heroes with flaws. They are after all written by humans about humans. No human can truly concieve of perfection perfectly yet display it in word and deed to convince others of it.

Im playing devils advocate here because I think your approach is incorrect, and in the long run detrimental to bring people to Christ. Because people who rely on your premises to obtain faith can lose it when they recognize the flaws of those premises.

Thats because when you rely on the flesh to get faith, you can lose your faith by the flesh. If you rely on the Spirit to get faith, you cannot lose it through the flesh.

I believe the Bible because the Holy Spirit showed me it was true. Ive had enough experience with God to know that He doesnt lie. And the beauty of the Gospel is you dont have to take my word for it. You can go to God and find out for yourself. Youre own experience can be a witness.

Now with that said, I still dont know what this has to do with the original post.

 

[Foxfyre]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My personal belief is that you three groups in particular are wrong. This, of course is just my humble opinion.

I believe that if there is a God of this world, He / She / It is much larger than the brief and small window into the history of life on earth that any of your 'holy' books reveal.

That being said, as an American I would defend your rights to be wrong to my last breath.

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

Perhaps in your humble opinion, I am wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you have that right.

-Joe

Well it would depend on what you chose to be wrong about wouldn't it? I would strongly defend your right to be wrong in your opinion. But wrong in your action that violated the unalienable, civil, legal, or Constitutional rights of somebody else? No, I wouldn't defend that, nor, in my opinion, should you.

But since you are focusing on religion, I doubt you would find two people on Earth who are absolutely in lockstep with everything that they believe to be true. It is difficult to find two Jews or two Christians who agree on every single point of doctrine, ritual, history, dogma, or Biblical interpretation. So certainly if you are a non-believer, you would not be expected to agree on all, if any, of those same points. And when we disagree, one or both of us are going to be wrong.

I think the best course of action is to acknowledge and accept that and be grateful that we have a First Amendment that allows us the freedom to err.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Of course Id defend your right to be wrong.

I would, however, ask you what you meant about God being bigger than what the Holy Books covers. God has paid the price for all mankind to be redeemed. I dont know how much bigger is possible.

I appreciate your opinion of that particular story in our history and your faith in its promise, but I do not believe the story has been accurately retold and I do not share your faith in it's current relevance.

Whether or not we can be brought to agreement as to current relevance of the redemption story of The Bible is not the question, the question is whether or not we each have an equal right to our differing opinions about it in America.

It is important because there are some countries where a contrary opinion in religious matters can make you a second class citizen in the eyes of the political majority - I want to see if America is still one of them.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

Why should one trust in the Holy Bible and recognize it as a valid source of God's revealed and written word? Foremost, anyone that professes to the religion of Christianity is admonished to worship in Spirit and Truth, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must do so in Spirit and Truth." -- John 4:24. Truth is not validated by blindly accepting anything without placing it to the TEST/PROVING, another admonished trait of the Christian ( 1 Thess. 5:12, 1 John 4:1). There are more than empirical findings of fact to consider when establishing truth (One has REASON, LOGIC, and Prima Facie conclusions to consider) .....just as the founders of this nation realized, a great many things are SELF EVIDENT.

The Holy Bible should be accepted over other religious books, or anyone's simple ad hominem beliefs, because no other holy book can amass the evidence for supernatural origin that the Holy Bible can. Following is a list of reasons to accept the Bible to be what it self professes to be....THE TRUTH.

1.) It claims to be from God. That in itself is not a conformation of its claim, nor does that claim prove anything, but the claim is something that we should look for. Logically, would God send His revelation to man.....anonymously?

2.) It is based in history, not in the subjective experience of one individual. That opens it up to being tested. It can be proven or disproved.

3.) It contains the highest and purest moral teachings. They remain unsurpassed in their simplicity, applicability, and profundity.

4.) It contains prophecies that are made and proven to be fulfilled. They surpass the possibility of human or natural powers to foresee or bring about.

5.) It has a sublime ( awe inspiring) unity about it in every way -- doctrine, progression of thought, story line, theme, details, structure....etc.

6.) It has been proven to be accurate in every way -- historically, geographically, scientifically, etc. As diligently as its critics and skeptics have tried for centuries, there has never been "empirically" proven to be one flaw or contradiction to exist in the Bible that would establish it as less than the truth that it professes to be. Yet it is all to human to "err".

7.) It contains medical and scientific knowledge ahead of its time. The Bible did not partake of its contemporary medical and scientific ignorance....as was historically witnessed in humanity.

8.) It has had an immeasurably profound impact on the world and always in a positive manner......whenever practiced FAITHFULLY.

9.) It has the best textual sources of any book of antiquity. That is, we can trace its history back to its beginnings more accurately, and with greater ease of corroboration than any major book of antiquity.

10.) It contains a reasonable view of God, man, and truth.

11.) It has been proven to be indestructible. Despite the fact that its most powerful, rapid, and scholarly opponents have been trying to do away with it before the ink was dry on the first page.

12.) It is always current in its presentations of the truth...what was true in the 1st century is just as true today, as truth does not evolve as does society. Last year the Book of the Month Club asked 2000 of its members what book most influenced their lives, the Bible was number. It is one of the best selling books of history, and remains so today.

13.) It addresses our fundamental questions, and gives answers rather than waiting for future validation....such as, why suffering exists, where did we come from, what is our destiny, how did the universe begin, how will it end..etc. It even explains the meaning of man's lives purpose. The fact tht we were created as servants to God, and are never truly happy in this physical life until we validate that purpose.

14.) It fulfills our spiritual, social, psychological, and emotional needs.

15.) It is incredibly brief, although it is set forth as a seminal (gestating, growing work) book from the Creator, while men are notorious for their verbosity in all such matters...as they demand the accolade of their fellow men.

16.) It is based upon thousands of eyewitnesses throughout its history.

17.) It portrays its heroes in all their humanity...flaws and all. Unlike the skeletons hidden in the historical closets of every nation on earth...even ours. Thus, it is proven to be unbiased in the record it presents....the good, the bad and the ugly are all presented, unlike man.

{K. Meyers)

Once again, I appreciate your passion and your faith, but that is not my question.

I want to know if we have equal rights to our differing opinions regarding matters that can not be proven.

-Joe

 

[Sunni Man]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

No

 

[AVG-JOE]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My personal belief is that you three groups in particular are wrong. This, of course is just my humble opinion.

I believe that if there is a God of this world, He / She / It is much larger than the brief and small window into the history of life on earth that any of your 'holy' books reveal.

That being said, as an American I would defend your rights to be wrong to my last breath.

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

Perhaps in your humble opinion, I am wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you have that right.

-Joe

Well it would depend on what you chose to be wrong about wouldn't it? I would strongly defend your right to be wrong in your opinion. But wrong in your action that violated the unalienable, civil, legal, or Constitutional rights of somebody else? No, I wouldn't defend that, nor, in my opinion, should you.

But since you are focusing on religion, I doubt you would find two people on Earth who are absolutely in lockstep with everything that they believe to be true. It is difficult to find two Jews or two Christians who agree on every single point of doctrine, ritual, history, dogma, or Biblical interpretation. So certainly if you are a non-believer, you would not be expected to agree on all, if any, of those same points. And when we disagree, one or both of us are going to be wrong.

I think the best course of action is to acknowledge and accept that and be grateful that we have a First Amendment that allows us the freedom to err.

I believe that freedom of religion dictates that it matters not what any of us chooses to be passionately foolish about, so long as the laws we agree to live by are not violated.

The rest of your post seems to be in agreement with me, if I'm reading it correctly.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

No

Just me Sunni, or everyone who does not think like you?

What about the folks who share your convictions - would you defend their right to agree with you?

Perhaps you would not defend any rights of thought for anyone? It's o.k. if you wouldn't, you would not be alone in your selfishness - it's just surprising to hear anyone admit it here in the 'States.

-Joe

 

[Sunni Man]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

No

Just me Sunni, or everyone who does not think like you?

What about the folks who share your convictions - would you defend their right to agree with you?

Perhaps you would not defend any rights of thought for anyone? It's o.k. if you wouldn't, you would not be alone in your selfishness - it's just surprising to hear anyone admit it here in the 'States.

-Joe

Many people say that they would defend to the death other people's freedom to worship however they want.

I find that ridiculous

I would never defend a member of Wicca for instance.

 

[Mad Scientist]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

No

Negged.

 

[AVG-JOE]

No

Just me Sunni, or everyone who does not think like you?

What about the folks who share your convictions - would you defend their right to agree with you?

Perhaps you would not defend any rights of thought for anyone? It's o.k. if you wouldn't, you would not be alone in your selfishness - it's just surprising to hear anyone admit it here in the 'States.

-Joe

Many people say that they would defend to the death other people's freedom to worship however they want.

I find that ridiculous

I would never defend a member of Wicca for instance.

So freedom of religion is not a priority for you? It's o.k. if it's not, I just feel we should know these things about each other considering the passions that this particular forum sparks among us.

Ignoring freedom of religion is fine as long as your belief system is in sync with the current power base... What if some extremist group gained political power in your country, forcing you to contribute to their cause and making you live under what you consider to be a ridiculous set of religiously based laws? Would being unable to think as you see fit change your mind regarding the right of the Wiccans to think the way they want to?

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

No

Negged.

Un-cool, dude.

He has a right to be wrong just as much as you and I do.

-Joe

 

[Sunni Man]

Just me Sunni, or everyone who does not think like you?

What about the folks who share your convictions - would you defend their right to agree with you?

Perhaps you would not defend any rights of thought for anyone? It's o.k. if you wouldn't, you would not be alone in your selfishness - it's just surprising to hear anyone admit it here in the 'States.

-Joe

Many people say that they would defend to the death other people's freedom to worship however they want.

I find that ridiculous

I would never defend a member of Wicca for instance.

So freedom of religion is not a priority for you? It's o.k. if it's not, I just feel we should know these things about each other considering the passions that this particular forum sparks among us.

Ignoring freedom of religion is fine as long as your belief system is in sync with the current power base... What if some extremist group gained political power in your country, forcing you to contribute to their cause and making you live under what you consider to be a ridiculous set of religiously based laws? Would being unable to think as you see fit change your mind regarding the right of the Wiccans to think the way they want to?

-Joe

If people want to defend to the death my freedom of religion.

That is fine with me.

But don't expect me to give my life to protect your rights of worship.

If another religion became dominate and tried to force their beliefs on me.

Then the fight would be on.

 

[JBeukema]

judaism has it right. That's why God waited til 4000 BS to show himself

 

[AVG-JOE]

judaism has it right. That's why God waited til 4000 BS to show himself

Cute. But not really the question answered JB.

-Joe

 

[Avatar4321]

If people want to defend to the death my freedom of religion.

That is fine with me.

But don't expect me to give my life to protect your rights of worship.

If another religion became dominate and tried to force their beliefs on me.

Then the fight would be on.

Why would not defend others right to worship? You would recieve but wouldnt give the same? It just doesnt make sense.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My personal belief is that you three groups in particular are wrong. This, of course is just my humble opinion.

I believe that if there is a God of this world, He / She / It is much larger than the brief and small window into the history of life on earth that any of your 'holy' books reveal.

That being said, as an American I would defend your rights to be wrong to my last breath.

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

Perhaps in your humble opinion, I am wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you have that right.

-Joe

Sure. That holy book you so determinedly misunderstand tells me that people must come to God freely, which means I have to allow for them to be wrong until they get it right.

I have two questions. One, why did you feel it so necessary to include your rather offensive opinions instead of simply asking the question, and two, why do you think it's even necessary to ask?