Zone1 A Brief Look at Blacks and Jews in America(take 2)

[fncceo]

When do we get the important “brief” look at blacks and Jews in America, part 3?

The two movie did so poorly at the box office that the studio is having serious doubts about green-lighting number 3.

 

[BackAgain]

The two movie did so poorly at the box office that the studio is having serious doubts about green-lighting number 3.

Awwww shucks.

 

[fncceo]

Awwww shucks.

That's OK, if Disney picks up the rights, they will just keep churning them out to the streaming service.

 

[BackAgain]

That's OK, if Disney picks up the rights, they will just keep churning them out to the streaming service.

But then of course they’ll change the topic to gay blacks and gay Jews, probably involving kids.

 

[Lisa558]

I disagree with some of this. I think there is a good bit of broad generalizations going on. Jews are as much “embroiled in victimization” as you say blacks are. It comes up often in debates over Israel. In the “never forget” movement. It’s a convenient too for pushing policy.If you are going accuse blacks of it, you need to take ownership of it on your own side.

Why bring Israel into this? I keep hearing how hating the Jewish country has nothing to do with being antisemitic, and yet….every single time we talk about antisemitism, out someone comes with Israel. Or, worse, every time the topic is Israel, the f’n antisemites swarm in like moths to a flame.

And NO! Jews are not embroiled in victimization like the liberals want blacks to be. We are not blaming antisemitism every time Moshe shoplifts (pretty rare) or Rachel has a baby in high school (also rare). But blacks are blaming racism when members of their community do those bad things, and white leftists are driving this victim mentality.

You sympathies, since you’re liberal, automatically go with the blacks as opposed to Jews, but I am NOT doing what your friend IM2 is doing.

 

[Coyote]

Never Forget is about making sure it never happens again ... to anyone.

Totally agree. Although, as movement, it seldom speaks up strongly on other genocides.

No one has ever used Never Forget to suggest it's the reason to blame for lack of success among Jews.

Nope.

However comparing the Holocaust, a singular (horrific) incident with slavery, Jim Crowe and a deeply ingrained culture based on race is apples and oranges. They are both horrible so why is there a need to disparage one while uplifting the other?

 

[fncceo]

But then of course they’ll change the topic to gay blacks and gay Jews, probably involving kids.

It's OK, no one watches Disney anyway.

 

[fncceo]

They are both horrible so why is there a need to disparage one while uplifting the other?

Is someone doing that?

 

[Lisa558]

Never Forget is about making sure it never happens again ... to anyone.

No one has ever used Never Forget to suggest it's the reason to blame for lack of success among Jews.

Exactly. That’s my point: Jews aren’t blaming the Holocaust, or antisemitism in general, when a Jewish kid commits a crime, but blacks and leftists blame slavery and racism every time a black kid commits a crime, or drops out of school, or whatever.

 

[Lisa558]

Totally agree. Although, as movement, it seldom speaks up strongly on other genocides.


Nope.

However comparing the Holocaust, a singular (horrific) incident with slavery, Jim Crowe and a deeply ingrained culture based on race is apples and oranges. They are both horrible so why is there a need to disparage one while uplifting the other?

Who is “uplifting” Jews? Jews came by their success through their own hard work, sacrifice, discipline, and so forth. Nobody “lifted” them up.

And nobody is disparaging blacks. (Well, some racists are, but then again, antisemites disparage Jews. The OP even said that Jews helped blacks during the Civil Rights movement out of selfishness.) What some of us are bothered by is this “blame everyone else” mentality that liberals are encouraging blacks to adopt. It’s not helpful to ANYBODY, least of all blacks.

 

[Coyote]

Why bring Israel into this? I keep hearing how hating the Jewish country has nothing to do with being antisemitic, and yet….every single time we talk about antisemitism, out someone comes with Israel. Or, worse, every time the topic is Israel, the f’n antisemites swarm in like moths to a flame.

Because “never again” is used to push for certain political policies in regards to Israel. Not sure what you think I’m referring to.

And NO! Jews are not embroiled in victimization like the liberals want blacks to be. We are not blaming antisemitism every time Moshe shoplifts (pretty rare) or Rachel has a baby in high school (also rare). But blacks are blaming racism when members of their community do those bad things, and white leftists are driving this victim mentality.

You sympathies, since you’re liberal, automatically go with the blacks as opposed to Jews, but I am NOT doing what your friend IM2 is doing.

Actually my sympathies go to both. I don’t view it as a zero sum game. It seems too many do…in order to legitimize the one you have to delegitimize the other instead of acknowledging the suffering and wrongs both have undergone and supporting both.

 

[fncceo]

Because “never again” is used to push for certain political policies in regards to Israel.

Be specific. You know you want to be.

 

[Lisa558]

Because “never again” is used to push for certain political policies in regards to Israel. Not sure what you think I’m referring to.

“Never again” means that we cannot allow a crazed antisemite to lead another Holocaust and kill millions of Jews - and we can prevent that by having a country of self-determination and refuge. Israel can NEVER be allowed to be wiped out of existence, as the Islamic terrorists want.

Actually my sympathies go to both. I don’t view it as a zero sum game. It seems too many do…in order to legitimize the one you have to delegitimize the other instead of acknowledging the suffering and wrongs both have undergone and supporting both.

Nobody is legitimizing one and delegitimizing the other, which you mean the Holocaust in the former and slavery in the latter. If anything, antisemites delegitimize the Holocaust via denial. No racists deny slavery or Jim Crowe laws.

 

[Coyote]

Be specific. You know you want to be.

I don’t have anything specific. It is an argument that has come up repeatedly in debates in the IP forum.

 

[BlackSand]

Be specific. You know you want to be.

.

Perhaps you could assist with a clarification from a specific point of view.

When Jews use the term "Never Again", are they specifically stating their commitment to ensuring that their brethren never again suffer the atrocities they have,
although it has been adopted by many to refer to genocide internationally?

How significant is the statement as to who is responsible for ensuring they do not suffer ... Are they personally owning that responsibility?

.​

 

[Coyote]

“Never again” means that we cannot allow a crazed antisemite to lead another Holocaust and kill millions of Jews - and we can prevent that by having a country of self-determination and refuge. Israel can NEVER be allowed to be wiped out of existence, as the Islamic terrorists want.

And I don’t disagree.

Nobody is legitimizing one and delegitimizing the other, which you mean the Holocaust in the former and slavery in the latter. If anything, antisemites delegitimize the Holocaust via denial. No racists deny slavery or Jim Crowe laws.

Racists don’t have to deny anything in order to delegitimize. That isn’t the only means of doing so. The constant minimizing of the effects of Jim Crowe for example, text books rewording slavery as ”involuntary relocation”, insisting that slavery wasn’t all bad.

 

[fncceo]

.

Perhaps you could assist with a clarification from a specific point of view.

When Jews use the term "Never Again", are they specifically stating their commitment to ensuring that their brethren never again suffer the atrocities they have,
although it has been adopted by many to refer to genocide internationally?

How significant is the statement as to who is responsible for ensuring they do not suffer ... Are they personally owning that responsibility?

.​

The Holocaust happened, partly, because no one believed it could have happened. Even Jews, who had suffered centuries of overt antisemitism in Europe and hundreds of European slaughters of Jews just could not believe that The Nazis were capable of attempting to exterminate Jews as a people.

Millions of Jews packed their bags and boarded trains, refusing to believe that they were being taken to their deaths.

"Never Again" means remembering The Holocaust and knowing that, even in a so-called civilized country, it can happen again.

Remembering what happened in the past is a big step to preventing it from happening in the future.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I have rarely heard “Jew victim card”, not anywhere near to the defpgree of ”race card”. Yes, there are Holocaust deniers, but they are marginalized, as they should be.

Nobody “denies” slavery happened….instead they
insist it wasn’t actually all bad
deny that slavery and Jim Crowe had any long lasting impacts
publish textbooks that refer to slavery as “involuntary relocation”
tell them they should just “get over it”
tbe race card

I’ve never heard anyone say slavery wasn’t bad. What people have said is that it was worse elsewhere. That a fact, and one that our black racist posters don’t want publicized.

 

[Coyote]

The Holocaust happened, partly, because no one believed it could have happened. Even Jews, who had suffered centuries of overt antisemitism in Europe and hundreds of European slaughters of Jews just could not believe that The Nazis were capable of attempting to exterminate Jews as a people.

Millions of Jews packed their bags and boarded trains, refusing to believe that they were being taken to their deaths.

"Never Again" means remembering The Holocaust and knowing that, even in a so-called civilized country, it can happen again.

Remembering what happened in the past is a big step to preventing it from happening in the future.

It seems to me that that sentiment should also apply to slavery and Jim Crowe in our country.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Never Forget is about making sure it never happens again ... to anyone.

No one has ever used Never Forget to suggest it's the reason to blame for lack of success among Jews.

The only context I know for “ never again” Is jews refusing to ever be victims again. They will go down fighting to the last man, woman and child before walking into the gas chambers again.