A brief history of (Christian) God

[Czernobog]

But anyone observing a rock rationally recognises that a rock has certain observable, immutable, objective features that make it a rock. The same cannot be said of God, because there is no objective, observable evidence of the existence of God. So, since God is imaginary, it makes perfect sense that everyone who believes in God can imagine him to be whatever it is they need him to be.

My point: People are unique and make unique observations in regards to others and even how events play out. That is why there are so many perceptions of God.

To disprove this assessment, you would have to show how every person perceives all other individuals in the exact same way as everyone else...but for some strange reason, every person's perceptions of God differ. Does everyone perceive the President exactly the same? The Pope? Your next door neighbor?

Again, you are talking about the difference between personal perception, and objective observation. I do not care about anyone's personal perception of divinity. I require objective, observable, verifiable evidence.

 

[Meriweather]

Again, you are talking about the difference between personal perception, and objective observation. I do not care about anyone's personal perception of divinity. I require objective, observable, verifiable evidence.

Yes. I understand that. I also understand that I have told you again and again that God, a spiritual being, is not observable to us. His residence is not in the physical realm. You will not find your evidence in the physical realm. End of story.

Basically, you wish to use only the simple cognitive skills our closest ape cousins also have. You wish humans to go back to that state when dealing with God. This lower cognitive state only deals with what one can see and touch. You have no use for the higher cognitive skills--at least when it comes to God.

Czernobog, your way of arguing against God is poorly thought out and poorly presented. I, who believe in God, can do so much better in presenting the argument against God. This would not be based on that weird twisting of scripture stories and even odder tangle of what you believe people "really" believe. That's child's play--stuff we discuss all the time at the middle school level. It would be based on what the human mind is capable of due to its high level of cognitive and imaginative thinking.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
there has been no more a devious presence on earth than the history of christianity from the late 4th century to the present time, no period in which christianity has ever prevailed as a positive force remotely reflective of a beneficent Almighty. their's is a forgery of the 1st century, a political persuasion disguised as a religion.

 

[Czernobog]

Again, you are talking about the difference between personal perception, and objective observation. I do not care about anyone's personal perception of divinity. I require objective, observable, verifiable evidence.

Yes. I understand that. I also understand that I have told you again and again that God, a spiritual being, is not observable to us. His residence is not in the physical realm. You will not find your evidence in the physical realm. End of story.

How convenient. "God doesn't exist in the physical universe, so you just have to accept that he is there. Really. He is..."

Basically, you wish to use only the simple cognitive skills our closest ape cousins also have. You wish humans to go back to that state when dealing with God. This lower cognitive state only deals with what one can see and touch. You have no use for the higher cognitive skills--at least when it comes to God.

Not "see and touch". Objectively observe. There are many things that we cannot "see and touch", but are able, with relative certainty, assert exist because there is observable evidence of their existence. We can neither see, nor touch radio waves, however we have proven their existence. We have neither seen nor touched atoms, however we have proven their existence. We can neither see nor touch antimatter, however we have objective observable evidence of its existence. I could go on. You want to misrepresent what I have posited so that you can dismiss my opposition to your choice to believe in an imaginary invisible being for which there is no evidence.

Czernobog, your way of arguing against God is poorly thought out and poorly presented. I, who believe in God, can do so much better in presenting the argument against God. This would not be based on that weird twisting of scripture stories and even odder tangle of what you believe people "really" believe. That's child's play--stuff we discuss all the time at the middle school level. It would be based on what the human mind is capable of due to its high level of cognitive and imaginative thinking.

Actually my way of arguing against God is scientific. It is very simple. The "Null Hypothesis" is that "X does not exist". The purpose of scientific exploration is then to either confirm the Null Hypothosis, or to prove it erroneous through objective observable evidence.

Null Hypothesis: God does not exist.

Now. Feel free to move me off of this position with observable, objective, verifiable evidence.

 

[sealybobo]

Great! All hail Zeus!!!!! You see, even if one were to manage to prove the existence of divinity - no one has yet - that is still a far cry from proving your flavour of religion is any more accurate, or correct than any other.

See, even Pascale falls short in that. All Pascale manages with his "Divine Wager" is to demonstrate that, if one were worried about one's "immortal soul" - a concept that also has no objective evidence to support - that believing in some deity, is better than none. But, then you are still left with the question of "Which one?" And, again, your book of myths is useless as "evidence". After all, every religion has a holy book to go along with the religion; and they all claim the same thing yours does - "Ours is right. Theirs is shite,"

Are you of the opinion everyone should perceive God in exactly the same way? Does everyone view you exactly the same? It is not, "Which one" it is the One they worship according to their understanding of God. The why of how people came to believe as they do is always interesting. At least, I find it so.

So you think it's better people believe in God than not. I get that. I have to pause on that. If people want to they should be free to believe. outside here of course

 

[Czernobog]

Great! All hail Zeus!!!!! You see, even if one were to manage to prove the existence of divinity - no one has yet - that is still a far cry from proving your flavour of religion is any more accurate, or correct than any other.

See, even Pascale falls short in that. All Pascale manages with his "Divine Wager" is to demonstrate that, if one were worried about one's "immortal soul" - a concept that also has no objective evidence to support - that believing in some deity, is better than none. But, then you are still left with the question of "Which one?" And, again, your book of myths is useless as "evidence". After all, every religion has a holy book to go along with the religion; and they all claim the same thing yours does - "Ours is right. Theirs is shite,"

Are you of the opinion everyone should perceive God in exactly the same way? Does everyone view you exactly the same? It is not, "Which one" it is the One they worship according to their understanding of God. The why of how people came to believe as they do is always interesting. At least, I find it so.

So you think it's better people believe in God than not. I get that. I have to pause on that. If people want to they should be free to believe. outside here of course

I don't have a problem with people believing what they want. However, don't choose to believe in a fantasy, and then try to convince me that I'm being irrational for choosing not to. Don't threaten to kill me, if I choose not to (Muslims), and don't try to use my government to codify your belief-based morality, and force me to behave as if I agree with you (Christians). I have said many times, this is why I don't have a problem with Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or other religious types - because they aren't trying to inject their religions into my life.

 

[Meriweather]

So you think it's better people believe in God than not. I get that. I have to pause on that. If people want to they should be free to believe. outside here of course

No, that's not what I said. The atheists in my family (for the most part) are not stating a course of action they are determined to follow. For them, it is a realization from the heart. They recognize they don't believe. Some even want to believe, but they know deep in their hearts, no matter how much they may want to, they just don't. How can I state that people should lie to themselves--or to me?

People need to decide where they stand on the issue. The only thing people with opposing viewpoints need to do is to understand the other's position and why that is where they stand. My family (again for the most part, most of the time) understand my perspective. So we banter about whether I see things differently, or whether it is they who see things differently.

 

[sealybobo]

So you think it's better people believe in God than not. I get that. I have to pause on that. If people want to they should be free to believe. outside here of course

No, that's not what I said. The atheists in my family (for the most part) are not stating a course of action they are determined to follow. For them, it is a realization from the heart. They recognize they don't believe. Some even want to believe, but they know deep in their hearts, no matter how much they may want to, they just don't. How can I state that people should lie to themselves--or to me?

People need to decide where they stand on the issue. The only thing people with opposing viewpoints need to do is to understand the other's position and why that is where they stand. My family (again for the most part, most of the time) understand my perspective. So we banter about whether I see things differently, or whether it is they who see things differently.

Amen brother

 

[Czernobog]

So you think it's better people believe in God than not. I get that. I have to pause on that. If people want to they should be free to believe. outside here of course

No, that's not what I said. The atheists in my family (for the most part) are not stating a course of action they are determined to follow. For them, it is a realization from the heart. They recognize they don't believe. Some even want to believe, but they know deep in their hearts, no matter how much they may want to, they just don't. How can I state that people should lie to themselves--or to me?

People need to decide where they stand on the issue. The only thing people with opposing viewpoints need to do is to understand the other's position and why that is where they stand. My family (again for the most part, most of the time) understand my perspective. So we banter about whether I see things differently, or whether it is they who see things differently.

And ya know, if more Christians had this "Live, and let live" attitudes, and would stop trying to pass laws to make everyone behave in accordance with their religion-based morality, I would move Christianity into the same category as Judaism, would leave them alone, and we could all work on marginalising, and removing the threat of the other intrusive religion.

 

[gregphillip]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

We could not care less how you take us...I have no idea why you think we do

You are certainly free to worship anyone in any way you choose. The only problem is when you use your religious beliefs to justify denying rights to others.

Ah that pesky Constitution though....now piss off, I don't give two shits what you blabber about either, toad

So this is the whole problem. We are trying to have a discussion here, on a discussion forum, and "SassyIrishLass" adds to the conversation by saying that she will not participate. Okay, then don't. You are hindering the conversation here which is "how is it that so many have come to believe in God?, Is that belief legitimate?, And does religion actually help humanity?" The first two questions are not going to be answered anytime soon, but that last one definitely can be.

The answer: a resounding no. Yes I do believe that individuals can benefit from the positive thinking that religion brings personally, but on a societal level, where we are now talking about a community where people of all religions interact with each other, religion becomes a very nasty thing. It becomes a divider. It becomes yet another thing that makes me different to you, which causes conflict and misunderstanding.

People kill in the name of religion. It does not happen as much as it used to but it still happens. It is the number one reason for wars in human history other than race. Are you actually willing to advocate war and hate so that you feel a little bit better? Like it or not religion is not a fact. It has not been proven, therefore that means you don't know for sure.

That is not to say that consciousness ends with death, I firmly believe that there are realities and dimensions beyond this one which we don't understand. The problem is that with religion, people are saying they have the answer. Misleading others based on no sound evidence or logic. Just belief. It is Mass Hysteria on the largest scale in human history and anytime someone stands up and says "what if you are wrong?", they are written off as evil.

You have to be willing to engage in the conversation, putting walls up serves no one. Lets talk about it, you try to understand my point of view and I will try to understand yours. Its how we evolve, Ms. SassyIrishLass

 

[Meriweather]

And ya know, if more Christians had this "Live, and let live" attitudes, and would stop trying to pass laws to make everyone behave in accordance with their religion-based morality, I would move Christianity into the same category as Judaism, would leave them alone, and we could all work on marginalising, and removing the threat of the other intrusive religion.

Most Christians, in fact, do have this live and let live attitude. While I only run into the occasional proselytizer of another denomination who would truly like to convert me, I know they can't do that, so I simply settle into an enjoyable conversation with them on the order of conversations I have about Pepsi or Coke, best team, best sport. Religion, like any other topic, doesn't get me (and a majority of others, I find) bent out of shape. In this country we pride ourselves on the proposition people are welcome to speak freely about what they like.

As far as laws: We all have differing opinions on those as well. The laws I want as a school teacher may not be the laws the retailers down the streets favor. We are going to have differing opinions about laws, whatever those laws are tied to. What some (unfairly) try to do is sometimes attach a law to religion to bring prejudice into the picture. (Those terrible religious people are prejudiced against...."). We all need to stop that type of whining.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

We could not care less how you take us...I have no idea why you think we do

You are certainly free to worship anyone in any way you choose. The only problem is when you use your religious beliefs to justify denying rights to others.

Ah that pesky Constitution though....now piss off, I don't give two shits what you blabber about either, toad

So this is the whole problem. We are trying to have a discussion here, on a discussion forum, and "SassyIrishLass" adds to the conversation by saying that she will not participate. Okay, then don't. You are hindering the conversation here which is "how is it that so many have come to believe in God?, Is that belief legitimate?, And does religion actually help humanity?" The first two questions are not going to be answered anytime soon, but that last one definitely can be.

The answer: a resounding no. Yes I do believe that individuals can benefit from the positive thinking that religion brings personally, but on a societal level, where we are now talking about a community where people of all religions interact with each other, religion becomes a very nasty thing. It becomes a divider. It becomes yet another thing that makes me different to you, which causes conflict and misunderstanding.

People kill in the name of religion. It does not happen as much as it used to but it still happens. It is the number one reason for wars in human history other than race. Are you actually willing to advocate war and hate so that you feel a little bit better? Like it or not religion is not a fact. It has not been proven, therefore that means you don't know for sure.

That is not to say that consciousness ends with death, I firmly believe that there are realities and dimensions beyond this one which we don't understand. The problem is that with religion, people are saying they have the answer. Misleading others based on no sound evidence or logic. Just belief. It is Mass Hysteria on the largest scale in human history and anytime someone stands up and says "what if you are wrong?", they are written off as evil.

You have to be willing to engage in the conversation, putting walls up serves no one. Lets talk about it, you try to understand my point of view and I will try to understand yours. Its how we evolve, Ms. SassyIrishLass

Idiot noob

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

We could not care less how you take us...I have no idea why you think we do

You are certainly free to worship anyone in any way you choose. The only problem is when you use your religious beliefs to justify denying rights to others.

Ah that pesky Constitution though....now piss off, I don't give two shits what you blabber about either, toad

So this is the whole problem. We are trying to have a discussion here, on a discussion forum, and "SassyIrishLass" adds to the conversation by saying that she will not participate. Okay, then don't. You are hindering the conversation here which is "how is it that so many have come to believe in God?, Is that belief legitimate?, And does religion actually help humanity?" The first two questions are not going to be answered anytime soon, but that last one definitely can be.

The answer: a resounding no. Yes I do believe that individuals can benefit from the positive thinking that religion brings personally, but on a societal level, where we are now talking about a community where people of all religions interact with each other, religion becomes a very nasty thing. It becomes a divider. It becomes yet another thing that makes me different to you, which causes conflict and misunderstanding.

People kill in the name of religion. It does not happen as much as it used to but it still happens. It is the number one reason for wars in human history other than race. Are you actually willing to advocate war and hate so that you feel a little bit better? Like it or not religion is not a fact. It has not been proven, therefore that means you don't know for sure.

That is not to say that consciousness ends with death, I firmly believe that there are realities and dimensions beyond this one which we don't understand. The problem is that with religion, people are saying they have the answer. Misleading others based on no sound evidence or logic. Just belief. It is Mass Hysteria on the largest scale in human history and anytime someone stands up and says "what if you are wrong?", they are written off as evil.

You have to be willing to engage in the conversation, putting walls up serves no one. Lets talk about it, you try to understand my point of view and I will try to understand yours. Its how we evolve, Ms. SassyIrishLass

Idiot noob

What a shining example of Christendom you are: rude, crass, self-righteous, pompous, insulting, and arrogant. With representatives such as yourself, it is a wonder that Christianity is ever able to convince anyone that Christianity is a religion of morality, and peace.

 

[gregphillip]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

We could not care less how you take us...I have no idea why you think we do

You are certainly free to worship anyone in any way you choose. The only problem is when you use your religious beliefs to justify denying rights to others.

Ah that pesky Constitution though....now piss off, I don't give two shits what you blabber about either, toad

So this is the whole problem. We are trying to have a discussion here, on a discussion forum, and "SassyIrishLass" adds to the conversation by saying that she will not participate. Okay, then don't. You are hindering the conversation here which is "how is it that so many have come to believe in God?, Is that belief legitimate?, And does religion actually help humanity?" The first two questions are not going to be answered anytime soon, but that last one definitely can be.

The answer: a resounding no. Yes I do believe that individuals can benefit from the positive thinking that religion brings personally, but on a societal level, where we are now talking about a community where people of all religions interact with each other, religion becomes a very nasty thing. It becomes a divider. It becomes yet another thing that makes me different to you, which causes conflict and misunderstanding.

People kill in the name of religion. It does not happen as much as it used to but it still happens. It is the number one reason for wars in human history other than race. Are you actually willing to advocate war and hate so that you feel a little bit better? Like it or not religion is not a fact. It has not been proven, therefore that means you don't know for sure.

That is not to say that consciousness ends with death, I firmly believe that there are realities and dimensions beyond this one which we don't understand. The problem is that with religion, people are saying they have the answer. Misleading others based on no sound evidence or logic. Just belief. It is Mass Hysteria on the largest scale in human history and anytime someone stands up and says "what if you are wrong?", they are written off as evil.

You have to be willing to engage in the conversation, putting walls up serves no one. Lets talk about it, you try to understand my point of view and I will try to understand yours. Its how we evolve, Ms. SassyIrishLass

Idiot noob

What a shining example of Christendom you are: rude, crass, self-righteous, pompous, insulting, and arrogant. With representatives such as yourself, it is a wonder that Christianity is ever able to convince anyone that Christianity is a religion of morality, and peace.

The hardest thing to open, is a closed mind.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

We could not care less how you take us...I have no idea why you think we do

You are certainly free to worship anyone in any way you choose. The only problem is when you use your religious beliefs to justify denying rights to others.

Ah that pesky Constitution though....now piss off, I don't give two shits what you blabber about either, toad

You should read it.

Again, I don't give one damn what you blabber about out. You'd be wise to learn that

I know I shouldn't be but I'm still shocked when the RWNJs openly spit on the US Constitution, openly dismiss the very basis of the rights that set the US apart from other countries. How did they come to hate their own country THIS much?

OP is correct. but even wore is that his outline describes a religion and a god that was copied from other, older religions and gods.

Fact is, the catholic church was founded and has flourished as a money making machine. And really, it has been spectacularly successful in that endeavor.

.
there has been no more a devious presence on earth than the history of christianity from the late 4th century to the present time, no period in which christianity has ever prevailed as a positive force remotely reflective of a beneficent Almighty. their's is a forgery of the 1st century, a political persuasion disguised as a religion.

Religion/christianity is easily the longest ongoing, most financially successful scam in all of history.

 

[onefour1]

#3 Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)

A more full account of the lives of Adam an Eve and their children can be found in the Book of Moses:

Moses 5:1-18
1 And it came to pass that after I, the Lord God, had driven them out, that Adam began to till the earth, and to have dominion over all the beasts of the field, and to eat his bread by the sweat of his brow, as I the Lord had commanded him. And Eve, also, his wife, did labor with him.

2 And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.

3 And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters.

4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.

5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the nameof the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.

13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

14 And the Lord God called upon men by the Holy Ghost everywhere and commanded them that they should repent;

15 And as many as believed in the Son, and repented of their sins, should be saved; and as many as believed not and repented not, should be damned; and the words went forth out of the mouth of God in a firm decree; wherefore they must be fulfilled.

16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?

17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.


Marrying close relatives was not an issue in the beginning of the world and there was no law against it. In fact the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Over a long period of time genetic abnormalities began to show up and for this reason incestual relations became something to avoid. The Lord in the Law of Moses began to lay down laws against incestual relations many years after Adam and Eve:

Leviticus 18

Leviticus 20

Deuteronomy 27

 

[onefour1]

#4 Surprised the evil (he created) exists

As mentioned earlier, by simply creating goodness, its opposite will exist. However, even though creating goodness allows the principle of evil to exist, it does not force any being to follow after it or commit any act thereof. Somebody in their post questioned whether evil existed in heaven. The principle existed but it was not followed after until we see Lucifer rebel against God and then be cast out.

Revelation 12:7-10
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angelsfought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

To have kept the principle of evil from existing, God would have had to keep goodness from existing also. There would have been no purpose in his creations without goodness. Mankind has had free will since before the foundation of this earth to choose for himself to follow after good or evil. Thus Lucifer chose to rebel and many on this earth choose to rebel against goodness. But the will of God is that we choose to follow after goodness and for this reason he gave commandments to his children.

 

[onefour1]

#5 Clueless about how to deal with evil.

It has always been the desire of God to have mankind become more like Himself. One of the great things about God is that nobody forces God to be a good being. He is a good being by his own free will and choice. You cannot truly be a good being unless in and of yourself you choose to be good. God is such a being. He has free will and chooses to be good continually. In order for mankind to become like God, they too must be given free will. Forcing a being to be good does not make that being good. Only through the free will choice of their own will to do good makes a being good. Knowing this basic principle, God gives his children free will to choose for themselves whether to be good or not. As mention in #2 above, God could not create mankind to be perfect since man is a self-existent being himself. Thus the way for man to progress to become a good being like God, is to learn to choose good over evil. Those of us who have bodies on this earth were valiant in the pre-mortal existence. Those who rebelled against God were not allowed to gain a body but exist as spirits and were cast down with Lucifer to this earth. We were valiant in God's presence but this earth life has become a chance for us to see how good we will be outside of God's presence and without a perfect knowledge of his existence. This earth life was a chance for us to see if we would truly become good beings in and of ourselves God has not left us alone but has introduced his laws of goodness into this world and let us know that there is a better world to hope for. He has given us hope that when we fail to do good that we still have a chance by repenting of our bad ways and turning to the good. Forgiveness of wrong choices is available through repentance and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God really wants us to learn from our mistakes and turn away from evil. He has done all that could be done given our eternal condition and free will.

To say that God is clueless is to not understand the whole situation that God is in and how he must deal with his children. We have been given the greatest of opportunities. We must wake up and understand who and what God is and who and what we are.

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

 

[Czernobog]

#3 Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)

A more full account of the lives of Adam an Eve and their children can be found in the Book of Moses:

Moses 5:1-18
1 And it came to pass that after I, the Lord God, had driven them out, that Adam began to till the earth, and to have dominion over all the beasts of the field, and to eat his bread by the sweat of his brow, as I the Lord had commanded him. And Eve, also, his wife, did labor with him.

2 And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.

3 And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters.

4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.

5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the nameof the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.

13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

14 And the Lord God called upon men by the Holy Ghost everywhere and commanded them that they should repent;

15 And as many as believed in the Son, and repented of their sins, should be saved; and as many as believed not and repented not, should be damned; and the words went forth out of the mouth of God in a firm decree; wherefore they must be fulfilled.

16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?

17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.


Marrying close relatives was not an issue in the beginning of the world and there was no law against it. In fact the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Over a long period of time genetic abnormalities began to show up and for this reason incestual relations became something to avoid. The Lord in the Law of Moses began to lay down laws against incestual relations many years after Adam and Eve:

Leviticus 18

Leviticus 20

Deuteronomy 27

So, you spewed a bunch of Bible verses to say what I had just said - "Populate the world through incest". Good of you to agree that I was accurate. Basically all you said was, "Yeah, it was incest. But it was okay, cuz God said so,"

So, you worship a God is okay with incest. Good to know...

 

[Czernobog]

#5 Clueless about how to deal with evil.

It has always been the desire of God to have mankind become more like Himself. One of the great things about God is that nobody forces God to be a good being. He is a good being by his own free will and choice. You cannot truly be a good being unless in and of yourself you choose to be good. God is such a being. He has free will and chooses to be good continually. In order for mankind to become like God, they too must be given free will. Forcing a being to be good does not make that being good. Only through the free will choice of their own will to do good makes a being good. Knowing this basic principle, God gives his children free will to choose for themselves whether to be good or not. As mention in #2 above, God could not create mankind to be perfect since man is a self-existent being himself. Thus the way for man to progress to become a good being like God, is to learn to choose good over evil. Those of us who have bodies on this earth were valiant in the pre-mortal existence. Those who rebelled against God were not allowed to gain a body but exist as spirits and were cast down with Lucifer to this earth. We were valiant in God's presence but this earth life has become a chance for us to see how good we will be outside of God's presence and without a perfect knowledge of his existence. This earth life was a chance for us to see if we would truly become good beings in and of ourselves God has not left us alone but has introduced his laws of goodness into this world and let us know that there is a better world to hope for. He has given us hope that when we fail to do good that we still have a chance by repenting of our bad ways and turning to the good. Forgiveness of wrong choices is available through repentance and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God really wants us to learn from our mistakes and turn away from evil. He has done all that could be done given our eternal condition and free will.

To say that God is clueless is to not understand the whole situation that God is in and how he must deal with his children. We have been given the greatest of opportunities. We must wake up and understand who and what God is and who and what we are.

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

No. It's accurate. He was so clueless that he decided that a reboot was necessary, and slaughtered an entire planet to effect that reboot.