A brief history of (Christian) God

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

It is the same God that Jews and Muslims worship...

The Tanakh is the Christian Old Testament...

True. Although I am more tolerant of Jews. Mostly because they don't spend nearly as much time, and energy trying to convert me, or trying to codify their belief-based morality into law. Once the Christians, and Muslims start taking their cues from the Jews, I'll start leaving their asses alone, too.

Not all Christians are the same...

You have Unitarians that are like their Jewish cousins and prefer to let you find your own way than preach to you.

Being born to a Jewish Mother and Catholic Father and becoming Unitarian I have learn a lot and know not all Christians preach the Fire and Brimstone but instead look to lead by example instead and if you have never seen it, well that is sad.

Also I know many Muslims that are fine humans that I would break bread and could have married a few of their daughters, so again the generalization of Muslims seem wrong to me but hey maybe you have yet to meet the good ones...

yeah...I would submit that Unitarianism is a degree removed from institutional Christianity, and is more akin to Universalism, than Christianity. However, I would agree that I don't speak to Unitarians with my posts, either. They, like Jews, are much more "Live and let live" than your traditional Christians. I would aslo admit that Catholics are one of the few Christian sects that I tend to leave alone. They have some pretty strange believes (the concept of transubstantiation is just gross), but they aren't nearly as aggressive as Protestants are.

 

[The Irish Ram]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Not even close. But feel free to lean on your own understanding. We are not all children of God. Or intelligent for that matter. For instance, if Christians are wrong, no harm no foul. We just decay with the rest of you. If Christians are right, you have a very unpleasant eternity awaiting you. Say hello to Pasquale. The smarter of the two of you....

 

[Mousterian]

The OP pretty much nails the Abrahamic god, as related by the bronze-age 'prophets', who were obviously very disturbed individuals.
Societies across the world have given loonies a special place, and these ancient goat-herders did the same. The result is the bloodthirsty rants that fill the OT. And the NT is a contradictory mish-mash of urban myths, written down generations after the event.
That rational, educated people still 'worship' these phantoms is testament to the power of childhood brainwashing.
Should be prosecuted as child abuse, as should the systematic rape of children that pervades all these cults. The irrational prejudice against sexual pleasure fucks up the mind of the people who are raised in the toxic atmosphere of the Abrahamic tradition.

 

[Lastamender]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

You are ripping the wrong religion. But no Christians are going to hunt you down and kill you. Sleep tight.

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Not even close. But feel free to lean on your own understanding. We are not all children of God. Or intelligent for that matter. For instance, if Christians are wrong, no harm no foul. We just decay with the rest of you. If Christians are right, you have a very unpleasant eternity awaiting you. Say hello to Pasquale. The smarter of the two of you....

There are several problems. First of all, this wager does not in itself prove God exists. It merely says it is safer to presume he/it does. Secondly, it presumes you can force yourself to believe something you believe to be false. I fail to see how living a lie is the preferable option. Surely God could see through this dishonesty (and possibly punish you for it). A similar criticism is that if we are all designed by God, we are therefore designed so as not to believe in God. Atheists can hardly be blamed for being what God designed them.

Also, which God should we worship? There are thousands of religions each with their own God. What if we choose the wrong one? After all each religion believes that only its members are rewarded in the afterlife. Imagine if a Christian dies but is greeted by Muhammad (or Zeus or Odin etc) in the afterlife. Despite being very religious they are condemned to Hell because they choose the wrong religion. What if a Catholic dies and finds that the Presbyterians were right. Or a Baptist dies and finds the Mormons were right. The laws of probability say we have only one in several thousand chance of guessing the correct religion. Maybe God would forgive you for not choosing the right religion, but if he/it would do that surely he/it would forgive you for having no religion at all?

Instead let me replace this with what is known as the Atheist’s Wager. This states that you should live a good life and be a nice person, but leave religion alone. If God is loving and kind, he will forgive you for not believing in him and reward you in the afterlife. If God punishes you despite having been a good person all your life then god is unjust and you shouldn’t worship him.

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

You are ripping the wrong religion. But no Christians are going to hunt you down and kill you. Sleep tight.

Welllll...not any more. Now they just attenpt to use the government to codify behaviour based on their belief-based morality. However, make no mistake that I am no more impressed with Islam.

 

[The Irish Ram]

First of all, this wager does not in itself prove God exists

It doesn't have to. It addresses the stupidity of mankind to doubt it without being able to prove it, then betting their eternity against it.
An atheist doesn't believe in God, so God being kind is rather bizarre. And if they do believe in God they had better get to know him. God doesn't punish good behavior He rewards it. Again, BEMA . And, that the punishment for SIN, which no amount of good living can escape unscathed, is eternal death. Period. To salvage us, He became flesh and took the punishment FOR US. What more do you require of Him?

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Not even close. But feel free to lean on your own understanding. We are not all children of God. Or intelligent for that matter. For instance, if Christians are wrong, no harm no foul. We just decay with the rest of you. If Christians are right, you have a very unpleasant eternity awaiting you. Say hello to Pasquale. The smarter of the two of you....

So, I'm curious. Which point do you think was inaccurate? I mean, okay. The rape thing may have been a bit hyperbolic. It's possible that it was consensual. I find that hard to believe though, because Mary seemed pretty shocked by the news that she was preggers. Just sayin... But other than that particular characterisation, which other point do you think was inaccurate?

 

[Czernobog]

First of all, this wager does not in itself prove God exists

It doesn't have to.

Yes, it does. Without God, Pascale's divine wager falls apart. No God, therefore no threat. Further, even if one were to overlook this little misstep, there is still the question of which God. Let's face it, the Muslims say the same thing you do. Their God is the only real god, the rest are all bullshit. So, even if one were to find a way to force themselves to believe in something they don't believe in, in order to avoid this eternal suffering of which you speak, there is still the question of which version. Why is your version any better than anyone else's version? After all, they all promise the same end if you do not accept their version.

 

[ABikerSailor]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

No offense, but if you had listed your points in the order that they appear in the Bible, you would have more credibility in a discussion like this.

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

No offense, but if you had listed your points in the order that they appear in the Bible, you would have more credibility in a discussion like this.

The problem is that the bible doesn't happen in chronological order. All of the stuff that God did before the creation of man, such as the "War in Heaven", and God's creation of evil, is found in the Prophets (Isiah, Ezekial, Daniel, etc), which is placed after the historical books. So, in order to put the points in the order that that they were found in the Bible, would require putting them out of chronological order. Althought the only one out of literary order was the creating evil bit.

 

[Meriweather]

Because so many of you spend so much energy trying to convert us. That tends to suggest that Christians very much want to be taken seriously by the rest of us.

Who is "always" trying to convert you? My husband is an atheist, so I know for a fact no one is "always" trying to convert him. Years can go by without anyone suggesting he convert. So, what do you mean by "always" and who, specifically, is putting your through this?

 

[Czernobog]

Because so many of you spend so much energy trying to convert us. That tends to suggest that Christians very much want to be taken seriously by the rest of us.

Who is "always" trying to convert you? My husband is an atheist, so I know for a fact no one is "always" trying to convert him. Years can go by without anyone suggesting he convert. So, what do you mean by "always" and who, specifically, is putting your through this?

I don't know where you live, however here in Phoenix, I have had at my door in just the last month:

3 pairs of Mormons
1 group (4) of Jehovah's Witness
6 members from Assembly of God
1 Baptist
and 5 Church of Christ

That is besides the 36 tracts I have pulled from my windshield, and the 14 Flyers in my mailbox "inviting" me to various local church services.

Any other questions?

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Because so many of you spend so much energy trying to convert us. That tends to suggest that Christians very much want to be taken seriously by the rest of us.

Who is "always" trying to convert you? My husband is an atheist, so I know for a fact no one is "always" trying to convert him. Years can go by without anyone suggesting he convert. So, what do you mean by "always" and who, specifically, is putting your through this?

I don't know where you live, however here in Phoenix, I have had at my door in just the last month:

3 pairs of Mormons
1 group (4) of Jehovah's Witness
6 members from Assembly of God
1 Baptist
and 5 Church of Christ

That is besides the 36 tracts I have pulled from my windshield, and the 14 Flyers in my mailbox "inviting" me to various local church services.

Any other questions?

Damn and I live in rural Texas and never had that many visits the twenty-five years I have been here...

 

[TNHarley]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

No offense, but if you had listed your points in the order that they appear in the Bible, you would have more credibility in a discussion like this.

Lol what?

 

[IsaacNewton]

Because so many of you spend so much energy trying to convert us. That tends to suggest that Christians very much want to be taken seriously by the rest of us.

Who is "always" trying to convert you? My husband is an atheist, so I know for a fact no one is "always" trying to convert him. Years can go by without anyone suggesting he convert. So, what do you mean by "always" and who, specifically, is putting your through this?

I don't know where you live, however here in Phoenix, I have had at my door in just the last month:

3 pairs of Mormons
1 group (4) of Jehovah's Witness
6 members from Assembly of God
1 Baptist
and 5 Church of Christ

That is besides the 36 tracts I have pulled from my windshield, and the 14 Flyers in my mailbox "inviting" me to various local church services.

Any other questions?

Either the Baptists are having a poor recruiting year or they are confident one dude/dudette can convert people like Moses on Sunday at Denny's.

"Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)"

Yeah this 'resurrected' thing has a hole in it so big you could drive Alpha Centauri through it. If 'god' is all knowing he knew he would pardon Jesus/himself/the-ghost three days later. It's not death if three days later you are alive. It's a good coma, perhaps suspended animation, but dead is only valid if it means DEAD.

He tosses around pardons like he's pardoning the Joe Arpaio's of the world? Like handing out WatchTower tracts.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I haven't tried to covert him. Have you tried to convert him, Sass??


For your edification Czern, Humans don't convert people. The Holy Spirit does.
And how arrogant of the creation to think that the Creator could be surprised, confused, or clueless about anything is laughable. Where were you when He created earth? I'm sure He could have used your expertise...
As dumb as you make him out to be, I'm surprised that He was able to create even one dimension! Physics and math and chemistry and all....

God drowned nephilim. And as nasty as they were, it still grieved him. He waited until there were only 8 humans left whose DNA was still intact.
And you poor soul. People showing up in droves hoping you'll join them in Paradise. Selfish bastages..

 

[Meriweather]

I don't know where you live, however here in Phoenix, I have had at my door in just the last month:

3 pairs of Mormons
1 group (4) of Jehovah's Witness
6 members from Assembly of God
1 Baptist
and 5 Church of Christ

That is besides the 36 tracts I have pulled from my windshield, and the 14 Flyers in my mailbox "inviting" me to various local church services.

Any other questions?

I live within blocks of two major churches (one is LDS). The JW church is also within striking distance. No one has come to our door since we moved in years ago. I told them I was Catholic. That, apparently, gets one moved to the "No visit" list.

Just one other comment: While you may think your opening statement comes across as sharp and on point, to those who truly know their faith, it displays ignorance at its finest...on the order of someone showing up at their local nursery, expecting to buy groceries.

 

[sealybobo]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

16. Disappeared 2000 years ago

17. Visited Mohammad 600 years ago
18. Visited Joseph Smith 217 years ago

 

[onefour1]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Let's start with #1. If you create a law, there will always be an opposite to that law. For example, if you proclaim "Thou shalt not commit adultery", then simply by creating a good law, the opposite will exist. God, by simply creating laws of goodness, allowed its opposite to also exist. Would it have been better that goodness never exist since by creating it, its opposite will also exist? The prophets have taught:

2 Nephi 2:5-30
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Simply by creating goodness that man might have joy, the potential for doing the opposite of goodness exists. God, knowing the weakness of mankind and that he/she would break the law at times, provided a way whereby he/she could repent and be forgiven of the broken law. Thus God is not only a just and holy God but a kind and merciful God also. He has given us the law whereby we can find happiness and eternal life and also he has provided a way whereby if we transgress the law we can obtain forgiveness and still remain on the path to happiness and eternal life. He has given us free will to make that choice and become like Him. God is himself a being of free will and chooses good continually. He has provided us the same opportunity. Without the creation of the laws of goodness which bring joy and happiness, we would be in a state of indifference not knowing joy or happiness. Sure, the opposite exists by virtue of creating its counter part. For this you fault God? We all have the free will to choose the good! We are not forced to do evil! Yet you blame God for it.