A brief history of (Christian) God

[Czernobog]

We don't expect you to get it but his post helps a lot who aren't already brainwashed

Interesting. This is more than non-belief in God (atheism)--instead, it is a strongly held belief that God is a lie. To fight this perceived lie, the solution is to present lies of your own making?

Nonsensical. If I don't believe god is real then of course someone lied. I suspect Moses was the first liar and then whoever wrote the new testament told the 2nd big lie. Then Mohammad and Joseph Smith followed with their lies. Jehovas too.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” – Stephen F Roberts

The problem with Roberts' quote is that the Christians I have talked to only reject non-Christian Gods, because "their Bible tells them so," That's it. That is the extent of their "critical thinking". "I reject Zeus, because the Bible tells me that the 'God of Abraham' is the only true God," See? They don't engage in critical thinking to reject the other gods; they just rely on their chosen myths. That's why expecting the to apply the critical thinking they use to reject other gods against their own god doesn't work. Because it wasn't critical thinking, in the first place. It was belief - without objective evidence - in their book of myths. So, as you can see, Roberts demonstrated a misunderstanding of how Christians come to a rejection of other gods.

 

[Meriweather]

If I don't believe god is real then of course someone lied.

Or, you are mistaken?

 

[sealybobo]

If I don't believe god is real then of course someone lied.

Or, you are mistaken?

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

 

[Czernobog]

If I don't believe god is real then of course someone lied.

Or, you are mistaken?

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

Yeah...you see...in the case of Mormons, Joseph Smith was a convicted scam artist. He literally started out as a flim-flam snake oil salesman. So, it rather seems more likely that he just made that shit up, and lied, than anyone is just "mistaken".

 

[sealybobo]

If I don't believe god is real then of course someone lied.

Or, you are mistaken?

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

Yeah...you see...in the case of Mormons, Joseph Smith was a convicted scam artist. He literally started out as a flim-flam snake oil salesman. So, it rather seems more likely that he just made that shit up, and lied, than anyone is just "mistaken".

I'm just trying to make a point. That's what I would expect Meriwether to do. Find ways to discredit the other religions to confirm why his is the one true religion.

Christianity has the luxury of happening 2000 years ago and their hearsay books were written centuries later. If Jesus the man actually existed his stories were embellished. I don't know if the apostles lied or if their stories were re written later. All's I know is I can't buy it

 

[Meriweather]

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

They are right that God exists and is worthy of our love, faith, and attention.

 

[sealybobo]

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

They are right that God exists and is worthy of our love, faith, and attention.

Ok then I'll worship him my way.

 

[sealybobo]

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

They are right that God exists and is worthy of our love, faith, and attention.

Why did they need to make up stories?

 

[Meriweather]

I'm just trying to make a point. That's what I would expect Meriwether to do. Find ways to discredit the other religions to confirm why his is the one true religion.

Then you will be disappointed. Perhaps you do not know (or have forgotten) I am from a family of Catholics, Protestants, and atheists. My dear friend is LDS, and our two daughters have been best friends since Kindergarten. A couple of people are avid students of Judaism. Students at schools where I teach are comfortable coming to me at Ramadan when they wish to draw away from the lunch room.

I will disagree and debate people of all faiths and of no faiths. I present my side without trying to discredit theirs. Presenting why I believe as I do, should not discredit anyone else's beliefs, and that means your beliefs, sealybobo. Your beliefs don't discredit mine--they are simply somewhere else on the spectrum of beliefs.

Have you read a book called Sapiens? I believe you might enjoy it as much as I am. The author presents the idea that early man made-up stuff outside of reality, and that we are still doing. He presents the idea that corporations, and even laws, are as much a myth as religion. A corporation isn't a true reality--yet we all are willing to agree it is a legal entity and we treat it as such. He believes mankind did the same thing with religion.

 

[Meriweather]

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

They are right that God exists and is worthy of our love, faith, and attention.

Why did they need to make up stories?

The better question is, "Why do 21st century Americans expect every other culture in every other era to present accounts of events that match criteria we have set up for ourselves today?" Ancient people have no way of understanding the criteria we have drawn up for ourselves today. That leaves it for us to go back and understand the criteria of their own times and how they passed along information.

 

[Czernobog]

Well sure I suppose Joseph Smith Mohammad or jehovas could be right. What do you think?

They are right that God exists and is worthy of our love, faith, and attention.

Great! All hail Zeus!!!!! You see, even if one were to manage to prove the existence of divinity - no one has yet - that is still a far cry from proving your flavour of religion is any more accurate, or correct than any other.

See, even Pascale falls short in that. All Pascale manages with his "Divine Wager" is to demonstrate that, if one were worried about one's "immortal soul" - a concept that also has no objective evidence to support - that believing in some deity, is better than none. But, then you are still left with the question of "Which one?" And, again, your book of myths is useless as "evidence". After all, every religion has a holy book to go along with the religion; and they all claim the same thing yours does - "Ours is right. Theirs is shite,"

 

[Meriweather]

Great! All hail Zeus!!!!! You see, even if one were to manage to prove the existence of divinity - no one has yet - that is still a far cry from proving your flavour of religion is any more accurate, or correct than any other.

See, even Pascale falls short in that. All Pascale manages with his "Divine Wager" is to demonstrate that, if one were worried about one's "immortal soul" - a concept that also has no objective evidence to support - that believing in some deity, is better than none. But, then you are still left with the question of "Which one?" And, again, your book of myths is useless as "evidence". After all, every religion has a holy book to go along with the religion; and they all claim the same thing yours does - "Ours is right. Theirs is shite,"

Are you of the opinion everyone should perceive God in exactly the same way? Does everyone view you exactly the same? It is not, "Which one" it is the One they worship according to their understanding of God. The why of how people came to believe as they do is always interesting. At least, I find it so.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Great! All hail Zeus!!!!! You see, even if one were to manage to prove the existence of divinity - no one has yet - that is still a far cry from proving your flavour of religion is any more accurate, or correct than any other.

See, even Pascale falls short in that. All Pascale manages with his "Divine Wager" is to demonstrate that, if one were worried about one's "immortal soul" - a concept that also has no objective evidence to support - that believing in some deity, is better than none. But, then you are still left with the question of "Which one?" And, again, your book of myths is useless as "evidence". After all, every religion has a holy book to go along with the religion; and they all claim the same thing yours does - "Ours is right. Theirs is shite,"

Are you of the opinion everyone should perceive God in exactly the same way? Does everyone view you exactly the same? It is not, "Which one" it is the One they worship according to their understanding of God. The why of how people came to believe as they do is always interesting. At least, I find it so.

You know, just like nobody will ever see the same rainbow as the person standing right next to them because of perspective, I think that God is kinda the same way, we all have a different perspective on Him.

And, I also believe that there are large similarities in religion (there is something better after this, there is something worse, what we do in this life determines what happens next, we should be charitable towards our fellow human beings, and there is one big thing that is in charge of the whole deal, whether you call it God, Higher Power, Tao, or whatever). And, I also believe that religion is not so much a way of life as it is a path to lead you to a belief in something bigger than yourself. Buddhism and what Jesus taught are very similar. Tao and Judaic theology also share a great deal with each other.

So, I don't really think that one God is "better" than the other, because they are different facets of the same thing. Either God is everything, or He is nothing.

 

[Meriweather]

You know, just like nobody will ever see the same rainbow as the person standing right next to them because of perspective, I think that God is kinda the same way, we all have a different perspective on Him.

And, I also believe that there are large similarities in religion (there is something better after this, there is something worse, what we do in this life determines what happens next, we should be charitable towards our fellow human beings, and there is one big thing that is in charge of the whole deal, whether you call it God, Higher Power, Tao, or whatever). And, I also believe that religion is not so much a way of life as it is a path to lead you to a belief in something bigger than yourself. Buddhism and what Jesus taught are very similar. Tao and Judaic theology also share a great deal with each other.

So, I don't really think that one God is "better" than the other, because they are different facets of the same thing. Either God is everything, or He is nothing.

Well said.

 

[Czernobog]

Great! All hail Zeus!!!!! You see, even if one were to manage to prove the existence of divinity - no one has yet - that is still a far cry from proving your flavour of religion is any more accurate, or correct than any other.

See, even Pascale falls short in that. All Pascale manages with his "Divine Wager" is to demonstrate that, if one were worried about one's "immortal soul" - a concept that also has no objective evidence to support - that believing in some deity, is better than none. But, then you are still left with the question of "Which one?" And, again, your book of myths is useless as "evidence". After all, every religion has a holy book to go along with the religion; and they all claim the same thing yours does - "Ours is right. Theirs is shite,"

Are you of the opinion everyone should perceive God in exactly the same way? Does everyone view you exactly the same? It is not, "Which one" it is the One they worship according to their understanding of God. The why of how people came to believe as they do is always interesting. At least, I find it so.

And therein lies the problem. Gravity is not defined by how someone "perceives" it. It simply is, and it interacts on everyone the same predictable, verifiable way. When you walk of the edge of a tall building, you come crashing to the ground. When I walk off the edge of the same building the result is the same. Now, there may be some small variances on how quickly I go splat, based on mass, but the result is the same. No one is going to step off the roof, and just keep walking, just because they perceive gravity "differently. That's because the Law of Gravity is an observable, objective fact. God is nothing more than a personal, subjective belief, so it is different for everyone, based on how they want to imagine God to be. I choose not to waste my time allowing imaginary figures to determine how I live my life. Not God. Not the Easter Bunny. And Not Santa Claus.

Now, in this particular thread, I am merely pointing out how completely irrational the Christian myth is.

 

[ding]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Your problem as always is the straw man you created.

 

[Meriweather]

And therein lies the problem. Gravity is not defined by how someone "perceives" it. It simply is, and it interacts on everyone the same predictable, verifiable way. When you walk of the edge of a tall building, you come crashing to the ground. When I walk off the edge of the same building the result is the same. Now, there may be some small variances on how quickly I go splat, based on mass, but the result is the same. No one is going to step off the roof, and just keep walking, just because they perceive gravity "differently. That's because the Law of Gravity is an observable, objective fact. God is nothing more than a personal, subjective belief, so it is different for everyone, based on how they want to imagine God to be. I choose not to waste my time allowing imaginary figures to determine how I live my life. Not God. Not the Easter Bunny. And Not Santa Claus.

Now, in this particular thread, I am merely pointing out how completely irrational the Christian myth is.

God is animate. People are animate. Our perceptions of others differ. A rock simply is. Yet people can perceive a rock differently, even though it is inanimate. People perceive other animate beings even more differently that they might a rock.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

We could not care less how you take us...I have no idea why you think we do

You are certainly free to worship anyone in any way you choose. The only problem is when you use your religious beliefs to justify denying rights to others.

Ah that pesky Constitution though....now piss off, I don't give two shits what you blabber about either, toad

You should read it.

Again, I don't give one damn what you blabber about out. You'd be wise to learn that

I know I shouldn't be but I'm still shocked when the RWNJs openly spit on the US Constitution, openly dismiss the very basis of the rights that set the US apart from other countries. How did they come to hate their own country THIS much?

OP is correct. but even wore is that his outline describes a religion and a god that was copied from other, older religions and gods.

Fact is, the catholic church was founded and has flourished as a money making machine. And really, it has been spectacularly successful in that endeavor.

 

[Czernobog]

And therein lies the problem. Gravity is not defined by how someone "perceives" it. It simply is, and it interacts on everyone the same predictable, verifiable way. When you walk of the edge of a tall building, you come crashing to the ground. When I walk off the edge of the same building the result is the same. Now, there may be some small variances on how quickly I go splat, based on mass, but the result is the same. No one is going to step off the roof, and just keep walking, just because they perceive gravity "differently. That's because the Law of Gravity is an observable, objective fact. God is nothing more than a personal, subjective belief, so it is different for everyone, based on how they want to imagine God to be. I choose not to waste my time allowing imaginary figures to determine how I live my life. Not God. Not the Easter Bunny. And Not Santa Claus.

Now, in this particular thread, I am merely pointing out how completely irrational the Christian myth is.

God is animate. People are animate. Our perceptions of others differ. A rock simply is. Yet people can perceive a rock differently, even though it is inanimate. People perceive other animate beings even more differently that they might a rock.

But anyone observing a rock rationally recognises that a rock has certain observable, immutable, objective features that make it a rock. The same cannot be said of God, because there is no objective, observable evidence of the existence of God. So, since God is imaginary, it makes perfect sense that everyone who believes in God can imagine him to be whatever it is they need him to be.

 

[Meriweather]

But anyone observing a rock rationally recognises that a rock has certain observable, immutable, objective features that make it a rock. The same cannot be said of God, because there is no objective, observable evidence of the existence of God. So, since God is imaginary, it makes perfect sense that everyone who believes in God can imagine him to be whatever it is they need him to be.

My point: People are unique and make unique observations in regards to others and even how events play out. That is why there are so many perceptions of God.

To disprove this assessment, you would have to show how every person perceives all other individuals in the exact same way as everyone else...but for some strange reason, every person's perceptions of God differ. Does everyone perceive the President exactly the same? The Pope? Your next door neighbor?