A brief history of (Christian) God

[sealybobo]

We could not care less how you take us...I have no idea why you think we do

The internet is directly responsible for the ride in atheism. Maybe his post isn't meant for you

 

[sealybobo]

I don't know where you live, however here in Phoenix, I have had at my door in just the last month:

3 pairs of Mormons
1 group (4) of Jehovah's Witness
6 members from Assembly of God
1 Baptist
and 5 Church of Christ

That is besides the 36 tracts I have pulled from my windshield, and the 14 Flyers in my mailbox "inviting" me to various local church services.

Any other questions?

I live within blocks of two major churches (one is LDS). The JW church is also within striking distance. No one has come to our door since we moved in years ago. I told them I was Catholic. That, apparently, gets one moved to the "No visit" list.

Just one other comment: While you may think your opening statement comes across as sharp and on point, to those who truly know their faith, it displays ignorance at its finest...on the order of someone showing up at their local nursery, expecting to buy groceries.

We don't expect you to get it but his post helps a lot who aren't already brainwashed

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Let's start with #1. If you create a law, there will always be an opposite to that law. For example, if you proclaim "Thou shalt not commit adultery", then simply by creating a good law, the opposite will exist. God, by simply creating laws of goodness, allowed its opposite to also exist. Would it have been better that goodness never exist since by creating it, its opposite will also exist? The prophets have taught:

2 Nephi 2:5-30
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Simply by creating goodness that man might have joy, the potential for doing the opposite of goodness exists. God, knowing the weakness of mankind and that he/she would break the law at times, provided a way whereby he/she could repent and be forgiven of the broken law. Thus God is not only a just and holy God but a kind and merciful God also. He has given us the law whereby we can find happiness and eternal life and also he has provided a way whereby if we transgress the law we can obtain forgiveness and still remain on the path to happiness and eternal life. He has given us free will to make that choice and become like Him. God is himself a being of free will and chooses good continually. He has provided us the same opportunity. Without the creation of the laws of goodness which bring joy and happiness, we would be in a state of indifference not knowing joy or happiness. Sure, the opposite exists by virtue of creating its counter part. For this you fault God? We all have the free will to choose the good! We are not forced to do evil! Yet you blame God for it.

Soooo...the upshot of all of that is that the "all-powerful", "all-knowing" God created evil by accident, as a by-product of creating good? Yeah...that's so much better...

 

[onefour1]

#2 It is the purpose of God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Immortality is a state where the body never again separates from the spirit of man. This is brought about through the resurrection. Eternal life is a quality of life like unto God. Thus if you are saved into the kingdom of heaven, you will receive eternal life. God created both the spirit and the body of Adam and Eve. He did these things so that they could become more like God.

Moses 1:39
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 17:22-23
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Before we came to this earth we existed as spirits in the presence of God. Our spirits are the literal offspring of God.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Before we were born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father, we existed as intelligence. Our intelligence is self-existent. It has always existed.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Because the intelligence of man is self-existent, it could not be created or made. Since it could not be created or made, it could not be created or made to be perfect. Thus in order for God to allow us to become more like himself, He had to teach us how to become more like him. Since He couldn't simply create us to be perfect, he had to bring about the perfection of man in another way. Becoming his spirit children before the world was created and then coming to this world and receiving a body and experiencing mortality is the way in which God gives us the opportunity to progress to become more like himself. He thus formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into man his spirit:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Moses 3:7,9
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Abraham 5:7
7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

God first created Adam and then he created Eve. They were placed in the Garden of Eden. They were innocent not knowing good from evil. As stated in my previous post, God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and commanded Adam and Eve to not partake of it. For in the day they would partake of it, they would surely die. At this time God had not yet given Adam and Eve their own time of reckoning but their time was after the Lords time.

Abraham 3:4,6-9
4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

Thus Adam could not live beyond 1000 years and died at the age of 930. God knew that Adam and Eve, in their innocent state, would succomb to the temptations of Satan and thus established his plan to allow man to experience the evil so that they would learn to prize the good. He therefore had a plan of salvation before the world was created.

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Thus Adam came and by him and his wife Eve, mankind became fallen man and entered a mortal state. All the experiences of this mortal state are calculated to give us knowledge and wisdom and experience to choose good over evil and learn to become more like God. Adam and Eve are our first parents. Adam was the first man and is also known as the Ancient of Days. God provided through the atonement of Jesus Christ a way for mortal man to attain immortality and even eternal life while still receiving the experience of mortality.

 

[onefour1]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Let's start with #1. If you create a law, there will always be an opposite to that law. For example, if you proclaim "Thou shalt not commit adultery", then simply by creating a good law, the opposite will exist. God, by simply creating laws of goodness, allowed its opposite to also exist. Would it have been better that goodness never exist since by creating it, its opposite will also exist? The prophets have taught:

2 Nephi 2:5-30
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Simply by creating goodness that man might have joy, the potential for doing the opposite of goodness exists. God, knowing the weakness of mankind and that he/she would break the law at times, provided a way whereby he/she could repent and be forgiven of the broken law. Thus God is not only a just and holy God but a kind and merciful God also. He has given us the law whereby we can find happiness and eternal life and also he has provided a way whereby if we transgress the law we can obtain forgiveness and still remain on the path to happiness and eternal life. He has given us free will to make that choice and become like Him. God is himself a being of free will and chooses good continually. He has provided us the same opportunity. Without the creation of the laws of goodness which bring joy and happiness, we would be in a state of indifference not knowing joy or happiness. Sure, the opposite exists by virtue of creating its counter part. For this you fault God? We all have the free will to choose the good! We are not forced to do evil! Yet you blame God for it.

Soooo...the upshot of all of that is that the "all-powerful", "all-knowing" God created evil by accident, as a by-product of creating good? Yeah...that's so much better...

Not by accident but by necessity. You cannot have goodness without its opposite. As an object lesson, try creating a good law without it having an opposite. How can you know the good without understanding the evil?

 

[Mousterian]

Ascribing the 'creation' of 'good', and its (apparently) inevitable consequence, 'evil' to 'God', believers are using a weak cop-out, an excuse to behave in anti-social behaviors, because 'God' made us weak.
Man up, and try to improve your character with a bit of introspection. And get help, if you can't manage on your own.

 

[onefour1]

Without its opposite, you would not need to man up and improve your character since all would be good if no evil existed. But would you even understand goodness without having its opposite to understand?

 

[Czernobog]

#2 It is the purpose of God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Immortality is a state where the body never again separates from the spirit of man. This is brought about through the resurrection. Eternal life is a quality of life like unto God. Thus if you are saved into the kingdom of heaven, you will receive eternal life. God created both the spirit and the body of Adam and Eve. He did these things so that they could become more like God.

Moses 1:39
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 17:22-23
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Before we came to this earth we existed as spirits in the presence of God. Our spirits are the literal offspring of God.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Before we were born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father, we existed as intelligence. Our intelligence is self-existent. It has always existed.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Because the intelligence of man is self-existent, it could not be created or made. Since it could not be created or made, it could not be created or made to be perfect. Thus in order for God to allow us to become more like himself, He had to teach us how to become more like him. Since He couldn't simply create us to be perfect, he had to bring about the perfection of man in another way. Becoming his spirit children before the world was created and then coming to this world and receiving a body and experiencing mortality is the way in which God gives us the opportunity to progress to become more like himself. He thus formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into man his spirit:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Moses 3:7,9
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Abraham 5:7
7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

God first created Adam and then he created Eve. They were placed in the Garden of Eden. They were innocent not knowing good from evil. As stated in my previous post, God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and commanded Adam and Eve to not partake of it. For in the day they would partake of it, they would surely die. At this time God had not yet given Adam and Eve their own time of reckoning but their time was after the Lords time.

Abraham 3:4,6-9
4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

Thus Adam could not live beyond 1000 years and died at the age of 930. God knew that Adam and Eve, in their innocent state, would succomb to the temptations of Satan and thus established his plan to allow man to experience the evil so that they would learn to prize the good. He therefore had a plan of salvation before the world was created.

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Thus Adam came and by him and his wife Eve, mankind became fallen man and entered a mortal state. All the experiences of this mortal state are calculated to give us knowledge and wisdom and experience to choose good over evil and learn to become more like God. Adam and Eve are our first parents. Adam was the first man and is also known as the Ancient of Days. God provided through the atonement of Jesus Christ a way for mortal man to attain immortality and even eternal life while still receiving the experience of mortality.

You see? This is why I take great pleasure in mocking Christians. Son, I am 50 years old, and spent two years in a Christian Seminary. Do you honestly believe that you have introduced a single original thought with your drivel here? Do you really think that spewing passages from your silly book of mythology that you are going to magically change my mind? Like, I'm gonna suddenly say, "Oh! Well if that is what the Bible says, that's different! Now, I believe it all!!!"

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Let's start with #1. If you create a law, there will always be an opposite to that law. For example, if you proclaim "Thou shalt not commit adultery", then simply by creating a good law, the opposite will exist. God, by simply creating laws of goodness, allowed its opposite to also exist. Would it have been better that goodness never exist since by creating it, its opposite will also exist? The prophets have taught:

2 Nephi 2:5-30
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Simply by creating goodness that man might have joy, the potential for doing the opposite of goodness exists. God, knowing the weakness of mankind and that he/she would break the law at times, provided a way whereby he/she could repent and be forgiven of the broken law. Thus God is not only a just and holy God but a kind and merciful God also. He has given us the law whereby we can find happiness and eternal life and also he has provided a way whereby if we transgress the law we can obtain forgiveness and still remain on the path to happiness and eternal life. He has given us free will to make that choice and become like Him. God is himself a being of free will and chooses good continually. He has provided us the same opportunity. Without the creation of the laws of goodness which bring joy and happiness, we would be in a state of indifference not knowing joy or happiness. Sure, the opposite exists by virtue of creating its counter part. For this you fault God? We all have the free will to choose the good! We are not forced to do evil! Yet you blame God for it.

Soooo...the upshot of all of that is that the "all-powerful", "all-knowing" God created evil by accident, as a by-product of creating good? Yeah...that's so much better...

Not by accident but by necessity. You cannot have goodness without its opposite. As an object lesson, try creating a good law without it having an opposite. How can you know the good without understanding the evil?

Then we get back to my original position: God created evil, and then seemed genuinely surprised that evil happened. And he thought the best way of dealing with that evil he created was to wipe out the entire planet, except for one small family of ship builders. Talk about using a bazooka to swat a fly...

 

[Czernobog]

Ascribing the 'creation' of 'good', and its (apparently) inevitable consequence, 'evil' to 'God', believers are using a weak cop-out, an excuse to behave in anti-social behaviors, because 'God' made us weak.
Man up, and try to improve your character with a bit of introspection. And get help, if you can't manage on your own.

I couldn't agree more. I don't need "God" to convince me to act with kindness. I do it just because being kind feels better than being a fucking asshole. I question the morality of anyone who needs a "God" to tell them how to be kind to people.

 

[ABikerSailor]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Let's start with #1. If you create a law, there will always be an opposite to that law. For example, if you proclaim "Thou shalt not commit adultery", then simply by creating a good law, the opposite will exist. God, by simply creating laws of goodness, allowed its opposite to also exist. Would it have been better that goodness never exist since by creating it, its opposite will also exist? The prophets have taught:

2 Nephi 2:5-30
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Simply by creating goodness that man might have joy, the potential for doing the opposite of goodness exists. God, knowing the weakness of mankind and that he/she would break the law at times, provided a way whereby he/she could repent and be forgiven of the broken law. Thus God is not only a just and holy God but a kind and merciful God also. He has given us the law whereby we can find happiness and eternal life and also he has provided a way whereby if we transgress the law we can obtain forgiveness and still remain on the path to happiness and eternal life. He has given us free will to make that choice and become like Him. God is himself a being of free will and chooses good continually. He has provided us the same opportunity. Without the creation of the laws of goodness which bring joy and happiness, we would be in a state of indifference not knowing joy or happiness. Sure, the opposite exists by virtue of creating its counter part. For this you fault God? We all have the free will to choose the good! We are not forced to do evil! Yet you blame God for it.

Soooo...the upshot of all of that is that the "all-powerful", "all-knowing" God created evil by accident, as a by-product of creating good? Yeah...that's so much better...

Not by accident but by necessity. You cannot have goodness without its opposite. As an object lesson, try creating a good law without it having an opposite. How can you know the good without understanding the evil?

Good thought. You may want to consider studying Tao or Judaism.

 

[Czernobog]

Without its opposite, you would not need to man up and improve your character since all would be good if no evil existed. But would you even understand goodness without having its opposite to understand?

Except I don't need some invisible magic man in the sky to tell me to be nice to people. I do that because it feels better than being a fucking asshole. Instead of justifying your choices to be an asshole with, "Well...God made me weak, and I am forgiven," How about just admitting, "Yeah. I'm an asshole," and start choosing not to be one! See, I'm all about taking personal responsibility for one's choices - both the good ones, and the bad ones.

 

[HaShev]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

The Christian idol god impregnates his own mother and your list for incest decides to put down Adam and Eve instead? *L*
The first wife of Adam(man) was Lilith a seperate creation, the second bride of Adam(word meaning =man) was Eve from his rib so Lilith =natural but Eve=incest,
however this is not a story of a historical man but of mankind and the second bride of man after Lilith(Israel) was the Roman Church (Eve). Hence told not to partake of the forbidden fruit offered by the false prophet to his bride (the church) claiming BEL -LIE- EVE IN him and you shall surely not die(false eternity in death), hence Jesus is the serpent of Genesis making the same false promises in
Luke 9.27, Mark 9.1, and Mt 16.28.

 

[Czernobog]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

The Christian idol god impregnates his own mother and your list for incest decides to put down Adam and Eve instead? *L*
The first wife of Adam(man) was Lilith a seperate creation, the second bride of Adam(word meaning =man) was Eve from his rib so Lilith =natural but Eve=incest,
however this is not a story of a historical man but of mankind and the second bride of man after Lilith(Israel) was the Roman Church (Eve). Hence told not to partake of the forbidden fruit offered by the false prophet to his bride (the church) claiming BEL -LIE- EVE IN him and you shall surely not die(false eternity in death), hence Jesus is the serpent of Genesis making the same false promises in
Luke 9.27, Mark 9.1, and Mt 16.28.

It's not Adam, and Eve that makes it incestuous; the fact that she is, literally, a part of him, actually makes their coupling almost masturbatory, but that's a whole different discussion. There are only Adam, and Eve. They have Cain, Able, and Seth. Cain kills able, gets run off. There are no girls. So, in order for Seth to continue the procreation, guess with whom he must have sex? That is where the incest comes in. So, any kids that Seth has, Eve is sister, mother, and grandmother to them, all at once. Try wrapping your head around that without throwing up in your mouth a little bit...

 

[IsaacNewton]

Using the bible to prove a point is like a Muslim speaking to a Christian and quoting the Koran and saying "see, you understand now". Or like the Flat Earth society getting their big book of 'facts' out and proving what they believe is true.

I mean at least learn how to make your point without circular un-reason.

 

[Meriweather]

We don't expect you to get it but his post helps a lot who aren't already brainwashed

Interesting. This is more than non-belief in God (atheism)--instead, it is a strongly held belief that God is a lie. To fight this perceived lie, the solution is to present lies of your own making?

 

[sealybobo]

Without its opposite, you would not need to man up and improve your character since all would be good if no evil existed. But would you even understand goodness without having its opposite to understand?

Do you have this problem in heaven?

 

[sealybobo]

#2 It is the purpose of God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Immortality is a state where the body never again separates from the spirit of man. This is brought about through the resurrection. Eternal life is a quality of life like unto God. Thus if you are saved into the kingdom of heaven, you will receive eternal life. God created both the spirit and the body of Adam and Eve. He did these things so that they could become more like God.

Moses 1:39
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 17:22-23
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Before we came to this earth we existed as spirits in the presence of God. Our spirits are the literal offspring of God.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Before we were born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father, we existed as intelligence. Our intelligence is self-existent. It has always existed.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Because the intelligence of man is self-existent, it could not be created or made. Since it could not be created or made, it could not be created or made to be perfect. Thus in order for God to allow us to become more like himself, He had to teach us how to become more like him. Since He couldn't simply create us to be perfect, he had to bring about the perfection of man in another way. Becoming his spirit children before the world was created and then coming to this world and receiving a body and experiencing mortality is the way in which God gives us the opportunity to progress to become more like himself. He thus formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into man his spirit:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Moses 3:7,9
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Abraham 5:7
7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

God first created Adam and then he created Eve. They were placed in the Garden of Eden. They were innocent not knowing good from evil. As stated in my previous post, God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and commanded Adam and Eve to not partake of it. For in the day they would partake of it, they would surely die. At this time God had not yet given Adam and Eve their own time of reckoning but their time was after the Lords time.

Abraham 3:4,6-9
4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

Thus Adam could not live beyond 1000 years and died at the age of 930. God knew that Adam and Eve, in their innocent state, would succomb to the temptations of Satan and thus established his plan to allow man to experience the evil so that they would learn to prize the good. He therefore had a plan of salvation before the world was created.

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Thus Adam came and by him and his wife Eve, mankind became fallen man and entered a mortal state. All the experiences of this mortal state are calculated to give us knowledge and wisdom and experience to choose good over evil and learn to become more like God. Adam and Eve are our first parents. Adam was the first man and is also known as the Ancient of Days. God provided through the atonement of Jesus Christ a way for mortal man to attain immortality and even eternal life while still receiving the experience of mortality.

You see? This is why I take great pleasure in mocking Christians. Son, I am 50 years old, and spent two years in a Christian Seminary. Do you honestly believe that you have introduced a single original thought with your drivel here? Do you really think that spewing passages from your silly book of mythology that you are going to magically change my mind? Like, I'm gonna suddenly say, "Oh! Well if that is what the Bible says, that's different! Now, I believe it all!!!"

And those quotes do nothing to prove their myth is real. Like that one from John. "But we know when he appears we will be like him for we shall see him as he is"

What the fuck does that mean? It's rambling bullshit

 

[sealybobo]

1. Creates evil (Isiah)
2. Creates Adam and Eve (Genesis)
3. Populate the world through Incest (Adam, Eve, Caine and Abel the only humans on Earth - you do the math)
4. Surprised the evil (he created) exists
5. Clueless about how to deal with evil.
6. Drowns the entire planet, save for one small family of very, very skilled ship builders
7. Repopulates the world through incest (Again, only Noah, his wife, his three kids, and their wives to procreate - you do the math)
8. Surprised evil exists...again.
9. Send plagues, diseases, starvation, plagues, tsunamis, etc.
10. Still bewildered by the evil
11. Blames Satan (whom he created).
12. Rapes (plants his seed) into a girl so she'll give birth to himself as his own son, so we can torture, and kill him/His son, so he can forgive us for being so evil.
13. Says, "Just KIDDING!" three days later, and brings his son back to life (Soooo...a sacrifice of nothing?)
14. Claims omniscience, and omnipotence.
15. Expects to be worshipped for his wisdom.

Yup. That is the God that Christians worship. And they wonder why there are those of us who find it difficult to take them seriously?

Let's start with #1. If you create a law, there will always be an opposite to that law. For example, if you proclaim "Thou shalt not commit adultery", then simply by creating a good law, the opposite will exist. God, by simply creating laws of goodness, allowed its opposite to also exist. Would it have been better that goodness never exist since by creating it, its opposite will also exist? The prophets have taught:

2 Nephi 2:5-30
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Simply by creating goodness that man might have joy, the potential for doing the opposite of goodness exists. God, knowing the weakness of mankind and that he/she would break the law at times, provided a way whereby he/she could repent and be forgiven of the broken law. Thus God is not only a just and holy God but a kind and merciful God also. He has given us the law whereby we can find happiness and eternal life and also he has provided a way whereby if we transgress the law we can obtain forgiveness and still remain on the path to happiness and eternal life. He has given us free will to make that choice and become like Him. God is himself a being of free will and chooses good continually. He has provided us the same opportunity. Without the creation of the laws of goodness which bring joy and happiness, we would be in a state of indifference not knowing joy or happiness. Sure, the opposite exists by virtue of creating its counter part. For this you fault God? We all have the free will to choose the good! We are not forced to do evil! Yet you blame God for it.

Soooo...the upshot of all of that is that the "all-powerful", "all-knowing" God created evil by accident, as a by-product of creating good? Yeah...that's so much better...

Not by accident but by necessity. You cannot have goodness without its opposite. As an object lesson, try creating a good law without it having an opposite. How can you know the good without understanding the evil?

Then we get back to my original position: God created evil, and then seemed genuinely surprised that evil happened. And he thought the best way of dealing with that evil he created was to wipe out the entire plan

We don't expect you to get it but his post helps a lot who aren't already brainwashed

Interesting. This is more than non-belief in God (atheism)--instead, it is a strongly held belief that God is a lie. To fight this perceived lie, the solution is to present lies of your own making?

What lies do we tell? We admit we don't have all the answers. You have all the answers.

We don't hav e to lie but you've been brainwashed so you aren't lying because you believe it

 

[sealybobo]

We don't expect you to get it but his post helps a lot who aren't already brainwashed

Interesting. This is more than non-belief in God (atheism)--instead, it is a strongly held belief that God is a lie. To fight this perceived lie, the solution is to present lies of your own making?

Nonsensical. If I don't believe god is real then of course someone lied. I suspect Moses was the first liar and then whoever wrote the new testament told the 2nd big lie. Then Mohammad and Joseph Smith followed with their lies. Jehovas too.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” – Stephen F Roberts