Zone1 Yes, we do have to "work" our way to Heaven

[1miseryindex]

Faith and Deeds

This is from James 2:14

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


Comment

Then there's another psg where Jesus says that FEW make it to Heaven... and another where He says that many will attempt to enter Heaven but "will not be strong enough."

The devil is stronger than you... hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that is the truth. Fortunately, he is not more powerful than Jesus.

 

[rightwinger]

According to renowned Biblical scholar Father Guido Sarducci you have to pay for your sins to get into heaven

 

[rampart]

Faith and Deeds

This is from James 2:14

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


Comment

Then there's another psg where Jesus says that FEW make it to Heaven... and another where He says that many will attempt to enter Heaven but "will not be strong enough."

The devil is stronger than you... hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that is the truth. Fortunately, he is not more powerful than Jesus.

bam. straight from "faith alone" and "useless" is good. i think king jsmes uses "empty."

faith is, i suppose, a virtue, but not enough.

 

[1miseryindex]

According to renowned Biblical scholar Father Guido Sarducci you have to pay for your sins to get into heaven

It's not a matter of "paying for your sins" whatever that may mean (to you)

It is a matter of

we are dreadfully fallen creatures. You can look around u and see that clearly
we are not made for Heaven. Baptism gets rid of original sin but then we go on to commit (often big) sins. Being forgiven is just the 1st step in being made ready for Heaven.

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" Phil 2:12

 

[1miseryindex]

bam. straight from "faith alone" and "useless" is good. i think king jsmes uses "empty."

faith is, i suppose, a virtue, but not enough.

I'm not even sure you can say that Faith is a virtue... when we see that even the demons "have faith" and "shudder" or "tremble"

 

[rampart]

I'm not even sure you can say that Faith is a virtue... when we see that even the demons "have faith" and "shudder" or "tremble"

this "faith" vs "works" sebate came to a head when luthor was opposing "indulgences."

juthor had a point, but modern protestants do take this to an extreme.

"jimmy carter is a man of great faith. but that does not stop his hammer." rampart

 

[1miseryindex]

this "faith" vs "works" sebate came to a head when luthor was opposing "indulgences."

juthor had a point, but modern protestants do take this to an extreme.

"jimmy carter is a man of great faith. but that does not stop his hammer." rampart

his hammer?

carter had a hammer... oh, you speak of the habitat for humanity?

I don't get it... I'm trying

 

[rampart]

his hammer?

carter had a hammer... oh, you speak of the habitat for humanity?

I don't get it... I'm trying

building homes is not a "work?" even for charity? we have a few problems that began in about the 11th chapter of genesis.....

 

[Lisa558]

In Judaism, it’s what you DO that counts, not what you believe.

 

[1miseryindex]

building homes is not a "work?" even for charity? we have a few problems that began in about the 11th chapter of genesis.....

OK, now I am really lost. I think I wrote to you before about how you should edit before Reply

you skip from building homes to 11th chapter of Genesis...

 

[1miseryindex]

In Judaism, it’s what you DO that counts, not what you believe.

The Catholic Church retained much of what is in the Jewish religion. And well they should since the term "perpetual ordinance" is used over and over in the Old Testament, used by God himself, i have been led to believe. It's not good to end something God calls Perpetual

Jesus came to fulfil the Law, not abolish it. Of course we kind of had to get rid of the ... you know... 100 sheep being slaughtered in the temple and that kind of unsavory thing... LOL

 

[hadit]

Faith and Deeds

This is from James 2:14

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


Comment

Then there's another psg where Jesus says that FEW make it to Heaven... and another where He says that many will attempt to enter Heaven but "will not be strong enough."

The devil is stronger than you... hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that is the truth. Fortunately, he is not more powerful than Jesus.

I put this on a different thread but will repeat it here, because it's worth repeating.

A lifelong bachelor goes to bars every weekend and picks up a woman for casual sex, kicking her out after he's had enough of her. He's done this for years. One day he says he met a girl, fell head over heels in love with her and wants to marry her.

1. He still goes to a bar every weekend and picks up girls for casual sex. Do we believe he's in love with that one girl?
2. He stops going to bars every weekend and spends every spare moment with that one girl. Do we he's in love with her?

The same bachelor stops going to bars every weekend and stops picking up girls. We ask why he stopped, and he says that he thinks the change in his behavior will convince a girl he doesn't even talk to that he's in love with her.

1. Do we believe that this girl will be impressed?

In both of these cases, we believe that a natural consequence of truly falling in love is for a man to stop trying to pick up other women for casual sex. We also don't think that he can claim to be in a romantic relationship with a woman he doesn't talk to just because he doesn't go out looking to pick up women. The same with God. Spiritual works are a natural consequence of being in a relationship with Him, because we want to please Him, we look for things we can do to show that He is ours and we are His. A person who claims to have faith and to be in relationship with God, but who does not do Godly works does not show the natural evidence that they are in such. Doing works without having faith, however, is totally pointless. There will be those who, at judgement, will attempt to produce a lifetime of good works, even miracles done in His name, who will be thrown away because they never had a relationship with God. So yes, we do works, but no, we don't think those works will weight the scales at all to save us. And that is specifically because we cannot obligate God to do anything. We cannot stand before Him and produce anything to require Him to save us. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.

 

[1miseryindex]

Spiritual works are a natural consequence of being in a relationship with Him, because we want to please Him, we look for things we can do to show that He is ours and we are His.

Sometimes they are. But there are many times we don't feel like doing anything for Christ. I guess Protestants would say: No problem! We are saved by faith!

Catholics would say... Time to get the old priorities straight

 

[Lisa558]

I put this on a different thread but will repeat it here, because it's worth repeating.

A lifelong bachelor goes to bars every weekend and picks up a woman for casual sex, kicking her out after he's had enough of her. He's done this for years. One day he says he met a girl, fell head over heels in love with her and wants to marry her.

1. He still goes to a bar every weekend and picks up girls for casual sex. Do we believe he's in love with that one girl?
2. He stops going to bars every weekend and spends every spare moment with that one girl. Do we he's in love with her?

The same bachelor stops going to bars every weekend and stops picking up girls. We ask why he stopped, and he says that he thinks the change in his behavior will convince a girl he doesn't even talk to that he's in love with her.

1. Do we believe that this girl will be impressed?

In both of these cases, we believe that a natural consequence of truly falling in love is for a man to stop trying to pick up other women for casual sex. We also don't think that he can claim to be in a romantic relationship with a woman he doesn't talk to just because he doesn't go out looking to pick up women. The same with God. Spiritual works are a natural consequence of being in a relationship with Him, because we want to please Him, we look for things we can do to show that He is ours and we are His. A person who claims to have faith and to be in relationship with God, but who does not do Godly works does not show the natural evidence that they are in such. Doing works without having faith, however, is totally pointless. There will be those who, at judgement, will attempt to produce a lifetime of good works, even miracles done in His name, who will be thrown away because they never had a relationship with God. So yes, we do works, but no, we don't think those works will weight the scales at all to save us. And that is specifically because we cannot obligate God to do anything. We cannot stand before Him and produce anything to require Him to save us. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.

Doing good works and having a relationship with Gd are not mutually exclusive!! Ask any observant Jew who focuses on doing mitzvot - Gd’s commandments.

 

[cnm]

Doing good works and having a relationship with Gd are not mutually exclusive!! Ask any observant Jew who focuses on doing mitzvot - Gd’s commandments.

But those are different gods. One's a trinity.

 

[cnm]

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless

So. No infants or toddlers in heaven.

May be worth it after all.

 

[1miseryindex]

So. No infants or toddlers in heaven.

May be worth it after all.

Jesus said to become like children

 

[rampart]

OK, now I am really lost. I think I wrote to you before about how you should edit before Reply

you skip from building homes to 11th chapter of Genesis...

that chapter deals with fundamental challenges of communication.

back to that.

i don't think that post ecumenical catholics use the baltimore catechism. what catechism did you learn from?

 

[1miseryindex]

that chapter deals with fundamental challenges of communication.

back to that.

i don't think that post ecumenical catholics use the baltimore catechism. what catechism did you learn from?

I began reading the modern catechism years ago because I didn't know better. Today, it is the Baltimore c for me.

I love reading the Scripture readings used in the liturgy at Mass. It is so uplifting. And I don't think the NO folks changed much there, although they do seem to have eliminated some of the references to Hell...

figures

NOT GOOD!

People need to realize that Heaven is absolutely, completely holy

and

they are not

(yet)

 

[cnm]

Jesus said to become like children

They have shown no works. Are you resiling from your position?