Zone1 Yes, we do have to "work" our way to Heaven

[Lisa558]

Wait a minute, when did the Law change to no longer require blood for forgiveness of sin? It sounds like you're saying that the Law can just change if it's inconvenient in modern society.

No, not if it’s INCONVENIENT. If it’s ILLEGAL. The law of the nation supersedes the religious law.

What is required for forgiveness of sin is to:

1. Recognize your wrongdoing
2. Ask for forgiveness
3. Vow do better
4. Take an action to help in whatever area you fell short

Now, doesn’t that sound like a reasonable approach to becoming a better person?

 

[hadit]

No, not if it’s INCONVENIENT. If it’s ILLEGAL. The law of the nation supersedes the religious law.

Where is it illegal to raise and slaughter sheep, goats, and cows? And if you are a truly observant Jew that believed the Law was immutable, you would move somewhere that it was legal to do so. Heck, the Amish and Mennonites move to a new country when their former host country passes laws requiring them to do things they object to doing.

What is required for forgiveness of sin is to:

1. Recognize your wrongdoing
2. Ask for forgiveness
3. Vow do better
4. Take an action to help in whatever area you fell short

Now, doesn’t that sound like a reasonable approach to becoming a better person?

Becoming a better person? Is that what this is all about to you, not securing your eternal destination?

Let's look at what you said. Those steps are EXACTLY what Christians talking about when they talk about faith and forgiveness of sin. You HAVE to have faith that God is going to hear and honor your repentance. The difference I see is that the Christian recognizes that you cannot be good enough to earn salvation and require God to accept you. We do the best we can because we love God and His spirit within us prompts us to do good works, but we recognize the works don't do anything to save us, they are just the natural result of salvation.

 

[Lisa558]

Where is it illegal to raise and slaughter sheep, goats, and cows? And if you are a truly observant Jew that believed the Law was immutable, you would move somewhere that it was legal to do so. Heck, the Amish and Mennonites move to a new country when their former host country passes laws requiring them to do things they object to doing.

Becoming a better person? Is that what this is all about to you, not securing your eternal destination?

Let's look at what you said. Those steps are EXACTLY what Christians talking about when they talk about faith and forgiveness of sin. You HAVE to have faith that God is going to hear and honor your repentance. The difference I see is that the Christian recognizes that you cannot be good enough to earn salvation and require God to accept you. We do the best we can because we love God and His spirit within us prompts us to do good works, but we recognize the works don't do anything to save us, they are just the natural result of salvation.

It seems like you’re saying because you can’t be perfect, you need to believe that someone else will absolve you of your sins.

We know that Gd recognizes we can’t be perfect, and that perfection is not necessary to earn a place in the World to Come. We all make mistakes, but if we are good people who learn from our mistakes, make amends when we fall short, and strive to be the best we can, that is pleasing to Gd and we will be rewarded.

What you’re saying is that since a person can’t be perfect, he can’t see Heaven unless he believes someone else absolves him of sins. That means a person can be a nasty SOB, and figure that he will be forgiven for all that because he “believes.”

 

[hadit]

It seems like you’re saying because you can’t be perfect, you need to believe that someone else will absolve you of your sins.

That is correct. What leads you to believe that God will accept in His presence anyone that is not perfectly clean of all sin, especially since He made a way that we can be?

We know that Gd recognizes we can’t be perfect, and that perfection is not necessary to earn a place in the World to Come.

And therein lies the rub, the word "earn". You can't earn salvation. If you could, people would be able to boast that they have and they would be able to hold their record up to God and require Him to accept them.

We all make mistakes, but if we are good people who learn from our mistakes, make amends when we fall short, and strive to be the best we can, that is pleasing to Gd and we will be rewarded.

There will be many at Judgement who will attempt to compel God to accept their works, and He will throw them out because He never knew them.

What you’re saying is that since a person can’t be perfect, he can’t see Heaven unless he believes someone else absolves him of sins. That means a person can be a nasty SOB, and figure that he will be forgiven for all that because he “believes.”

The demons also believe and tremble. It's not belief, it's faith, which means you put your complete trust in God's redemption. That also means you show evidence in your life that you have faith. Someone who claims they have faith but does not show it in their lives is suspect at best.

And I still do not believe that you can on one hand hold the Law as inviolable while simultaneously ignore it because following it is illegal. Christians face persecution all the time when they practice their faith where it is illegal.

 

[Meriweather]

And therein lies the rub, the word "earn". You can't earn salvation. If you could, people would be able to boast that they have and they would be able to hold their record up to God and require Him to accept them.

The Catholic faith sees it a bit differently. Jesus' life, death, and resurrection redeemed the whole world and opened up the way of salvation. While Lisa used the word "earn", I am going to guess that she may see 'earn' and 'walking in the way of salvation' as more or less synonymous.

Catholics, Orthodox, and especially Jews place great credence in obedience. Jesus taught that we should discern the will of God and follow it. Not sure how non-Catholic Christians came up with the idea that all that is needed is belief that Jesus took care of all sins of those who believed he did this.

 

[Meriweather]

There will be many at Judgement who will attempt to compel God to accept their works, and He will throw them out because He never knew them.

Exodus

 

[hadit]

The Catholic faith sees it a bit differently. Jesus' life, death, and resurrection redeemed the whole world and opened up the way of salvation. While Lisa used the word "earn", I am going to guess that she may see 'earn' and 'walking in the way of salvation' as more or less synonymous.

Catholics, Orthodox, and especially Jews place great credence in obedience. Jesus taught that we should discern the will of God and follow it. Not sure how non-Catholic Christians came up with the idea that all that is needed is belief that Jesus took care of all sins of those who believed he did this.

They do because of things like this:

Luke 7:

44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

Acts 15:

8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Acts 20:

20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there,

2 Timothy 1:

8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Acts 16:

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Works do nothing to save you, but they show the world that you are already saved.

 

[hadit]

Exodus

Matthew 7:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

 

[Meriweather]

They do because of things like this:

Proof texting means nothing to me. All of scripture must be treated equally.

 

[Meriweather]

work iniquity

Immoral or grossly unfair behavior. Pair it with it is the heart God judges.

 

[Lisa558]

That is correct. What leads you to believe that God will accept in His presence anyone that is not perfectly clean of all sin, especially since He made a way that we can be?

Because it is YOUR religion that teaches you must be clean of sin. MY religion teaches that Gd knows we have shortcomings, and wants us to be good people, doing mitzvot, and making amends when we fall short.

And therein lies the rub, the word "earn". You can't earn salvation. If you could, people would be able to boast that they have and they would be able to hold their record up to God and require Him to accept them.

YOUR religion teaches you can’t earn salvation. (That’s a Christian concept anyway - Jews call it a place in The World to Come.) My religion is different.

There will be many at Judgement who will attempt to compel God to accept their works, and He will throw them out because He never knew them.

How will He not know them? I, for example, do many mitzvot, pray to Him, and recognize when He intervenes to help me out (just happened last week). Of course He knows me!

The demons also believe and tremble. It's not belief, it's faith, which means you put your complete trust in God's redemption. That also means you show evidence in your life that you have faith. Someone who claims they have faith but does not show it in their lives is suspect at best.

And I still do not believe that you can on one hand hold the Law as inviolable while simultaneously ignore it because following it is illegal. Christians face persecution all the time when they practice their faith where it is illegal.

Well, you don’t expect Jews to break U.S. laws, do you? Then there would be even more antisemitism. Times change over 3500 years, but the basic concepts remain the same.

 

[hadit]

Proof texting means nothing to me. All of scripture must be treated equally.

You ignore these? That throws your entire plea into the trash.

 

[hadit]

Immoral or grossly unfair behavior. Pair it with it is the heart God judges.

And those who think they can earn salvation without heart changes will be thrown away. You must be born again.

 

[hadit]

Because it is YOUR religion that teaches you must be clean of sin. MY religion teaches that Gd knows we have shortcomings, and wants us to be good people, doing mitzvot, and making amends when we fall short.

YOUR religion teaches you can’t earn salvation. (That’s a Christian concept anyway - Jews call it a place in The World to Come.) My religion is different.

Following the Law is literally trying to earn salvation.

How will He not know them? I, for example, do many mitzvot, pray to Him, and recognize when He intervenes to help me out (just happened last week). Of course He knows me!

He will not know them because they refused to live in relationship with Him, instead attempting the earn their salvation through works, as the Scripture says.

Well, you don’t expect Jews to break U.S. laws, do you? Then there would be even more antisemitism. Times change over 3500 years, but the basic concepts remain the same.

I know that the Amish and Mennonites will stick to their principles and break the law if they need to. They would rather suffer persecution and move somewhere else than violate their principles. You telling me this just tells me that you don't really think the Law is eternal and unchanging, because you change it to suit your conveniences.

 

[Lisa558]

Following the Law is literally trying to earn salvation.

He will not know them because they refused to live in relationship with Him, instead attempting the earn their salvation through works, as the Scripture says.

I know that the Amish and Mennonites will stick to their principles and break the law if they need to. They would rather suffer persecution and move somewhere else than violate their principles. You telling me this just tells me that you don't really think the Law is eternal and unchanging, because you change it to suit your conveniences.

You’re coming at this from YOUR beliefs. There is more than one religion in the world. And stop telling Jews they don’t have a relationship with Gd, or He with they. Quite arrogant on your part, amd rude.

 

[hadit]

You’re coming at this from YOUR beliefs. There is more than one religion in the world. And stop telling Jews they don’t have a relationship with Gd, or He with they. Quite arrogant on your part, amd rude.

Are you really an observant Jew if you believe that the Law can change to fit changing societal mores?

 

[Lisa558]

Are you really an observant Jew if you believe that the Law can change to fit changing societal mores?

I’m a practicing Jew, fairly observant.

And yes, the Law can change to fit societal mores. It is unacceptable to bring live animals to the synagogue these days. Sorry you have a problem with it, but my Haredi rabbi is fine with it - and I rely more on his guidance than on a Christian who likes to tell Jews they won’t get to Heaven unless they adopt Christian beliefs.

 

[hadit]

I’m a practicing Jew, fairly observant.

And yes, the Law can change to fit societal mores. It is unacceptable to bring live animals to the synagogue these days. Sorry you have a problem with it, but my Haredi rabbi is fine with it - and I rely more on his guidance than on a Christian who likes to tell Jews they won’t get to Heaven unless they adopt Christian beliefs.

That just means that the Law, which God doesn't like being changed, doesn't really have to be followed the way it is written.

Are you certain that God will accept you into eternal life with Him, or are you not really sure? IOW, are you working hard enough to require God to take you in?

 

[Lisa558]

That just means that the Law, which God doesn't like being changed, doesn't really have to be followed the way it is written.

Are you certain that God will accept you into eternal life with Him, or are you not really sure? IOW, are you working hard enough to require God to take you in?

It’s not up to me to “require” anything of Gd. But of this I am sure: I am just as likely to see Heaven as you are. Possibly more, since I don’t really know if you are a good person.

 

[hadit]

It’s not up to me to “require” anything of Gd. But of this I am sure: I am just as likely to see Heaven as you are. Possibly more, since I don’t really know if you are a good person.

The thief on the cross next to Christ had nothing whatsoever to offer, no works, no baptism, no catechism, nothing. He walked into Paradise totally on the strength of his faith in Yeshua.