Why wouldn't Jesus...

[logical4u]

No, Yeshua does not speak against gov'ts helping people, but He definitely speaks (along with His Father) about people relying on (man) gov't over the Lord. That is what "welfare" does; it causes the recipients to have "faith" in gov't over the Lord (that would be directly against what Yeshua taught).

That's ridiculous. There is no evidence to back up your silly assertion.

If there are Christian individuals that have faith in government over faith in God I'd be interested in meeting them. And I'm sure they will squirm a bit trying to get past the pearly gates.

But your thinking reveals that YOU want the government to assure that people don't have faith in government over God and that is quite ironic.

In the time of Jacob's Joseph, there was a terrible drought. Instead of praying to the Lord or asking Him for help, Joseph's brothers were sent to Egypt (the gov't) to buy grain. They went back until they had no money. When they had no money, they took their possessions, and traded their possessions to the gov't for food (they did not rely on the Lord). After their possessions were gone, they had nothing left for food, what did they do? They sold themselves into slavery (willingly) to the gov't for food, instead of asking the Lord. They were slaves for a very, very long time before Moses was sent by the Lord (who they remembered once their suffering as slaves became constant).

Rely on the gov't for food and end up a slave. Rely on man over the Lord and end up being kept by those you "trusted".

Yeshua would tell His disciples that they were thinking of this world, and not of His world when they were discussing the "greatest among them". He explained that "serving" their fellow men was what He wanted them to do (notice nothing about being a great gov't, confiscating others' wealth was mentioned). Yeshua had many, many followers, none of them were told to become "community organizers" or gov't workers. The tax collecters that Yeshua dined with were encouraged to be honest (not follow the corruption of the gov't), and stop sinning. They were given the power of the Holy Spirit and could have used that power to build a nation. They did not. They used that "power" to give EACH person a relationship with the Lord to use, according to each individual's choice. There are other examples of where the disciples attempted to pressure Yeshua to use violence or His power to get what He wanted. He did not. He was the perfect sacrifice, a Lamb without flaw, that was tortured (there are people that claim He had over one thousand wounds from beatings and flogging), and for good measure a crown of thorns forced into his scalp, and murdered during passover so the Jews (and any that believed, right along with them) could be forgiven, and that sins would no longer be passed from generation to generation.

 

[logical4u]

Isn't the whole idea of morality and following God centered around the idea that it's a voluntary choice? My understanding of Christian dogma is that God created people with free will, and that it was then up to them to choose their course.

Given that, I'd suspect Jesus would have been opposed to state-mandated charity and preferred to see us giving out of voluntary generosity and compassion, rather simply following orders.

Not if the state-mandated charity was what society chose. There's nothing about it that precludes giving individually, btw.

Again, you are ignoring "personal" responsibility. If the gov't is doing "charitable" works, it will be for a political reason (have you ever noticed that the cities where the gov't knows how the "poor" will vote, rarely have any improvement in their schools, keeping generations of dwellers in gov't bondage?), and that parts of "society" will disagree with the "investment" factor of taxpayer dollars being spent. Only by people witnessing misery and understanding that they could be that person they are helping, can we begin to understand the love the Lord has for us (He sees us as wretched, broken, and lost). Removing the personal involvement makes for arrogant snobs that believe, they, know how other people should live their lives, and feel obligated to go around instucting others (even if their personal lives are a total mess).

 

[Avatar4321]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

 

[Ravi]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

So then tithing and donating to charities is also against the teaching of Jesus?

I don't think so.

 

[Newby]

Awsome posts Logical, very well said! I've never looked at the story of Joseph in quite that way, and it makes perfect sense and ties in very well. Well done!

 

[dblack]

So then tithing and donating to charities is also against the teaching of Jesus?

I don't think so.

I can't really speak to the teaching of Jesus, but you are conflating tithing and donating with taxation and state welfare. The key difference is that tithing and donating are voluntary acts of individuals. Taxation and welfare are government decisions mandated through law.

 

[Care4all]

So then tithing and donating to charities is also against the teaching of Jesus?

I don't think so.

I can't really speak to the teaching of Jesus, but you are conflating tithing and donating with taxation and state welfare. The key difference is that tithing and donating are voluntary acts of individuals. Taxation and welfare are government decisions mandated through law.

Just an fyi -Tithing and other rules of giving to the needy was not voluntary back then...it was a form of taxation by the Theocracy in place...if you did not tithe you were punished.

Jesus and other prophets of the Bible told us to not store up treasures here on Earth, to give ALL that we own to the poor and hungry if we want to be PERFECT in the eyes of God, not just the 10 percent tithe and other rules such as leaving enough of what you would harvest in the fields so that the poor could come and feed off of it....

 

[Care4all]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

Did you know that it was not considered stealing if you took from another person's field of fruit and vegetables, without the owner's permission, to feed yourself? ....that was NOT considered stealing! BUT If you went in to a stranger's field and filled up a sack of fruit or veggies and took them away with you, it would be stealing.

So essentially, if someone starving, took an apple from the supermarket and ate it right there to feed himself, it is NOT considered stealing.

 

[Care4all]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

Tithing IS OUTSOURCING....you are giving the money to someone else so that they can provide for the needy.

 

[dblack]

So then tithing and donating to charities is also against the teaching of Jesus?

I don't think so.

I can't really speak to the teaching of Jesus, but you are conflating tithing and donating with taxation and state welfare. The key difference is that tithing and donating are voluntary acts of individuals. Taxation and welfare are government decisions mandated through law.

Just an fyi -Tithing and other rules of giving to the needy was not voluntary back then...it was a form of taxation by the Theocracy in place...if you did not tithe you were punished...

Interesting. I didn't realize that. I thought it has always been a voluntary thing as it is now. But I guess it makes sense that these kind of personal moral decisions would be dictated under a theocracy. Yet another reason I'm glad I live in a country that has, nominally at least, rejected theocracy.

 

[Care4all]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

another thing...out of our 300 million people in the USA, 4.4 million receive TANF /WELFARE, and 25%-30% of those on welfare are also working.....

The 100 million claimed by the people on the right, includes people on Social Security, and people on Medicare and Unemployment compensation and every family member of that household even if they collect nothing. These are people who ARE THE WORKING CLASS.....

People ARE WORKING for themselves Avatar....they are not just sitting there twiddling their thumbs with their hand out.

 

[Newby]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

Tithing IS OUTSOURCING....you are giving the money to someone else so that they can provide for the needy.

But Jesus didn't preach tithing, he preached giving of yourself and your worldly possessions directly to those who were in need of them. Churches still preach tithing, but then again, many churches are giving to those missions where the funds are being used for supplies or food to directly help the poor as opposed the government, which is fraught with bureaucracy and corruption.

I think some points are often missed regarding the old testament rules on tithing. First off tithing was only only on agricultural items (wheat, barley, first fruits, grain offering, etc) Second the tithes were in support of the festivals that Jews were required to attend or to support the Levitical priests. As you can see in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 Pharisees tithe mint, dill, and cumin and rue and every herb which are all agricultural products. Note there is no mention of income, interest, dividends, wages, etc or any other form of money. Why? because money was never part of the tithe. If it was then Jesus would of brought up that point to the pharisees and scribes.

I agree with that. And I also think that has nothing to do with 'government' being the means by which you help the poor either.

 

[Avatar4321]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

So then tithing and donating to charities is also against the teaching of Jesus?

I don't think so.

I dont know why you cant understand that there is a difference between giving voluntarily and forcing others to give of themselves through violence

 

[Avatar4321]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

Tithing IS OUTSOURCING....you are giving the money to someone else so that they can provide for the needy.

No. It's not because Tithing is giving back to God the portion He's asked for.

 

[logical4u]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

So then tithing and donating to charities is also against the teaching of Jesus?

I don't think so.

Donating and being taxed are not the same thing.

 

[logical4u]

Awsome posts Logical, very well said! I've never looked at the story of Joseph in quite that way, and it makes perfect sense and ties in very well. Well done!

I got that from a black preacher trying to reach his congregation on why they should not have "faith" in the gov't. Wish it was mine

 

[logical4u]

So then tithing and donating to charities is also against the teaching of Jesus?

I don't think so.

I can't really speak to the teaching of Jesus, but you are conflating tithing and donating with taxation and state welfare. The key difference is that tithing and donating are voluntary acts of individuals. Taxation and welfare are government decisions mandated through law.

Just an fyi -Tithing and other rules of giving to the needy was not voluntary back then...it was a form of taxation by the Theocracy in place...if you did not tithe you were punished.

Jesus and other prophets of the Bible told us to not store up treasures here on Earth, to give ALL that we own to the poor and hungry if we want to be PERFECT in the eyes of God, not just the 10 percent tithe and other rules such as leaving enough of what you would harvest in the fields so that the poor could come and feed off of it....

Do you have chapter and verse on that? Can you say which story (parable) has it?

 

[logical4u]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

another thing...out of our 300 million people in the USA, 4.4 million receive TANF /WELFARE, and 25%-30% of those on welfare are also working.....

The 100 million claimed by the people on the right, includes people on Social Security, and people on Medicare and Unemployment compensation and every family member of that household even if they collect nothing. These are people who ARE THE WORKING CLASS.....

People ARE WORKING for themselves Avatar....they are not just sitting there twiddling their thumbs with their hand out.

Welfare: the gov't paying you to live in poverty.

 

[Care4all]

Personal responsibility is key. We are commanded not to be idle. Not to steal. Not to rob from others. We are commanded to provide for the poor. We are to minister and uplift people both temporarly and spiritually. We are. We aren't commanded to outsource our responsibilities to the poor to someone else. We are to take care of them as individuals.

another thing...out of our 300 million people in the USA, 4.4 million receive TANF /WELFARE, and 25%-30% of those on welfare are also working.....

The 100 million claimed by the people on the right, includes people on Social Security, and people on Medicare and Unemployment compensation and every family member of that household even if they collect nothing. These are people who ARE THE WORKING CLASS.....

People ARE WORKING for themselves Avatar....they are not just sitting there twiddling their thumbs with their hand out.

Welfare: the gov't paying you to live in poverty.

I agree that Welfare/tanf pays very very very little to its recipients....Tanf brings the 4.4 on welfare to only about 30% of the federal poverty level....by no means do your and my tax dollars for TANF bring them out of poverty.

 

[logical4u]

another thing...out of our 300 million people in the USA, 4.4 million receive TANF /WELFARE, and 25%-30% of those on welfare are also working.....

The 100 million claimed by the people on the right, includes people on Social Security, and people on Medicare and Unemployment compensation and every family member of that household even if they collect nothing. These are people who ARE THE WORKING CLASS.....

People ARE WORKING for themselves Avatar....they are not just sitting there twiddling their thumbs with their hand out.

Welfare: the gov't paying you to live in poverty.

I agree that Welfare/tanf pays very very very little to its recipients....Tanf brings the 4.4 on welfare to only about 30% of the federal poverty level....by no means do your and my tax dollars for TANF bring them out of poverty.

So... welfare brings people no "hope" and keeps them in poverty.....