Why wouldn't Jesus...

[Care4all]

Jesus was not about Gov't. in any way. From reading the Bible I am pretty sure that Jesus would not want you to put money into the Gov't. pot just to be spread out to the needy. Charity from individuals is what Jesus was preaching. What is wrong is people trying to use Jesus to justify socialism. Doesn't work.

Jesus NEVER spoke out against gvt, not even against the Roman gvt, as the pharisees tried to trick him in to doing, thus his answer on taxes that have to be paid to the Romans...''give unto Caesar what is his'' .....

And what is Caesers then? Anything he asks/demands? Was the Roman government handing out welfare to the poor? I don't think so. Christ's message is about personal salvation and what is in your heart, it wasn't about going around and forcing others to follow your beliefs of being benevolent to the poor, especially via a third party. It was about your own convictions of giving directly and helping directly those that had need. It was personal. If we use your argument, then everyone who pays taxes is following the words of Christ, even if it is not in their heart to help anyone. I don't know of any pastor that would affirm that you're doing what Christ preached about helping the poor by simply paying your taxes.

the Jewish government collected taxes per say from the Jewish people...and yes, it was a Theocracy and the religious leaders were the government....the Jewish people were upset that they had to pay taxes (via tithings and other rules) to their theocratic government and pay them to the Roman Government.... Jesus told them to basically do what the Romans wanted and pay the taxes.

Do you think Jesus did not know what was in their hearts? Do you think He did not know how upset they were about paying these taxes to the Romans? He disregarded these ill feelings of theirs and them being upset, and told them to pay what was asked by the Romans.

We have a different government now than back then, we do not live under a theocracy along with the Roman Government, we live under a Democratic Republic and every one of us has representation that make those important votes on legislation....if we don't agree with our government we can vote them out and put in new...we do have a say in our country.

some times we as individuals get what we want, and sometimes we don't.

I never said that Christ would accept that having our government help the poorest is ALL we should be doing....but I know He would not be against a government that tried to help the poorest, because he was NOT against the Jewish gvt of the time doing such.

There are no words in the Holy Bible of Jesus or anyone, that speaks out against a government that helps the needy or the sick, absolutely NONE.

So, to me, this is something you and others have simply MADE UP.

do I think we have problems with waste in our government...yes, we do.....but so did the Jewish gvt during Christ's time.

Do I think that we have some people that abuse the system....yes we do...as I am certain there were some that did the same during Christ's lifetime.

I have no issue with trying to address these problems of waste and abuse within our government....

 

[Newby]

Jesus NEVER spoke out against gvt, not even against the Roman gvt, as the pharisees tried to trick him in to doing, thus his answer on taxes that have to be paid to the Romans...''give unto Caesar what is his'' .....

And what is Caesers then? Anything he asks/demands? Was the Roman government handing out welfare to the poor? I don't think so. Christ's message is about personal salvation and what is in your heart, it wasn't about going around and forcing others to follow your beliefs of being benevolent to the poor, especially via a third party. It was about your own convictions of giving directly and helping directly those that had need. It was personal. If we use your argument, then everyone who pays taxes is following the words of Christ, even if it is not in their heart to help anyone. I don't know of any pastor that would affirm that you're doing what Christ preached about helping the poor by simply paying your taxes.

the Jewish government collected taxes per say from the Jewish people...and yes, it was a Theocracy and the religious leaders were the government....the Jewish people were upset that they had to pay taxes (via tithings and other rules) to their theocratic government and pay them to the Roman Government.... Jesus told them to basically do what the Romans wanted and pay the taxes.

Did Jesus tell them to do this because it was their obligation to help those less forrunate? And that they were fulfilling that obligation via the taxes they paid to the Romans? No, that wasn't what was behind His words. If it were, that would be the end of His message since nothing else would be required of you.

Do you think Jesus did not know what was in their hearts? Do you think He did not know how upset they were about paying these taxes to the Romans? He disregarded these ill feelings of theirs and them being upset, and told them to pay what was asked by the Romans.

Why? Why did He tell them that? Was it because the money/taxes they paid to the Romans was being used to further God's kingdom or bring salvation to them? No, that's not why He told them that. It was for reasons that had nothing to do with helping the less off/poor in society.

We have a different government now than back then, we do not live under a theocracy along with the Roman Government, we live under a Democratic Republic and every one of us has representation that make those important votes on legislation....if we don't agree with our government we can vote them out and put in new...we do have a say in our country.

some times we as individuals get what we want, and sometimes we don't.

Certainly agree with you there.

I never said that Christ would accept that having our government help the poorest is ALL we should be doing....but I know He would not be against a government that tried to help the poorest, because he was NOT against the Jewish gvt of the time doing such.

The government and the money (Taxes) that you pay to it has NOTHING to do with being a Christian, finding salvation, or doing what should be done as a follower or believer in Christ. In my opinion, He would care not at all what our government does, a government does not have a heart, a government does not find salvation or have an eternity with God, only PEOPLE do. A government's actions or nonactions does not represent you in front of the thrown of God. Your concept would basically say that those who did not believe in Christ would find salvation because they paid their taxes. It makes no sense in relation to the concept of Christ and what he preached.

There are no words in the Holy Bible of Jesus or anyone, that speaks out against a government that helps the needy or the sick, absolutely NONE.

So, to me, this is something you and others have simply MADE UP.

I never said that He specifically said anything against the government, but on the flip side, that is not what He preached. Not even close. There is nothing in the Bible that preaches that paying taxes to your government is an action of a 'good Christian', or brings salvation. That is something that you have made up Care. And not only that, you're trying to use that as a rationalization for the government's power over you. If the government said that you could no longer be a Christian, do you think Christ would support that as well? Who is the final authority over you, the government or Christ?

do I think we have problems with waste in our government...yes, we do.....but so did the Jewish gvt during Christ's time.

Do I think that we have some people that abuse the system....yes we do...as I am certain there were some that did the same during Christ's lifetime.

I have no issue with trying to address these problems of waste and abuse within our government....

Well, something else we agree on then.

 

[jillian]

Jesus NEVER spoke out against gvt, not even against the Roman gvt, as the pharisees tried to trick him in to doing, thus his answer on taxes that have to be paid to the Romans...''give unto Caesar what is his'' .....

And what is Caesers then? Anything he asks/demands? Was the Roman government handing out welfare to the poor? I don't think so. Christ's message is about personal salvation and what is in your heart, it wasn't about going around and forcing others to follow your beliefs of being benevolent to the poor, especially via a third party. It was about your own convictions of giving directly and helping directly those that had need. It was personal. If we use your argument, then everyone who pays taxes is following the words of Christ, even if it is not in their heart to help anyone. I don't know of any pastor that would affirm that you're doing what Christ preached about helping the poor by simply paying your taxes.

yeah, it was

does the term *bread and circus* ring a bell?

do the schools teach history any more?

not in any school that would have her.

 

[Newby]

And what is Caesers then? Anything he asks/demands? Was the Roman government handing out welfare to the poor? I don't think so. Christ's message is about personal salvation and what is in your heart, it wasn't about going around and forcing others to follow your beliefs of being benevolent to the poor, especially via a third party. It was about your own convictions of giving directly and helping directly those that had need. It was personal. If we use your argument, then everyone who pays taxes is following the words of Christ, even if it is not in their heart to help anyone. I don't know of any pastor that would affirm that you're doing what Christ preached about helping the poor by simply paying your taxes.

yeah, it was

does the term *bread and circus* ring a bell?

do the schools teach history any more?

not in any school that would have her.

Aw, I guess we're not schoolyard friends anymore?

Have any of you guys ever moved past high school? Seriously?

 

[Newby]

Jesus NEVER spoke out against gvt, not even against the Roman gvt, as the pharisees tried to trick him in to doing, thus his answer on taxes that have to be paid to the Romans...''give unto Caesar what is his'' .....

And what is Caesers then? Anything he asks/demands? Was the Roman government handing out welfare to the poor? I don't think so. Christ's message is about personal salvation and what is in your heart, it wasn't about going around and forcing others to follow your beliefs of being benevolent to the poor, especially via a third party. It was about your own convictions of giving directly and helping directly those that had need. It was personal. If we use your argument, then everyone who pays taxes is following the words of Christ, even if it is not in their heart to help anyone. I don't know of any pastor that would affirm that you're doing what Christ preached about helping the poor by simply paying your taxes.

yeah, it was

does the term *bread and circus* ring a bell?

do the schools teach history any more?

Okay, care to explain how 'bread and circus' could be considered 'welfare'? Or are you just describing today's welfare in the U.S. as being 'bread and circus'? Now that I could see, tossing literal crumbs to the uneducated masses to keep them stupid, compliant, happy, and voting democrat.

 

[jillian]

And what is Caesers then? Anything he asks/demands? Was the Roman government handing out welfare to the poor? I don't think so. Christ's message is about personal salvation and what is in your heart, it wasn't about going around and forcing others to follow your beliefs of being benevolent to the poor, especially via a third party. It was about your own convictions of giving directly and helping directly those that had need. It was personal. If we use your argument, then everyone who pays taxes is following the words of Christ, even if it is not in their heart to help anyone. I don't know of any pastor that would affirm that you're doing what Christ preached about helping the poor by simply paying your taxes.

yeah, it was

does the term *bread and circus* ring a bell?

do the schools teach history any more?

Okay, care to explain how 'bread and circus' could be considered 'welfare'? Or are you just describing today's welfare in the U.S. as being 'bread and circus'? Now that I could see, tossing literal crumbs to the uneducated masses to keep them stupid, compliant, happy, and voting democrat.

it was about keeping the populace fed and entertained... in order to keep government in power.

again... history.

as for keeping people stupid, compliant and voting republican, we'd be talking about pretending that creationism is science and giving the religious right all the misogynist legislation they can handle.

as long as the right gets that, they couldn't care less if the president runs two pretend wars of choice, keeps on cutting taxes for people who don't need their taxes cut, and cuts education, services, infrastructure and everything else that people actually need.

but you get your anti-choice legislation

and "christians" who hate poor people being fed and given medical care would really tick off jesus.

 

[logical4u]

That doesn't change my point.

Yeshua was the fullfillment of the OT. Yeshua is part of the OT.

yes true, but over and over and over and over Christ pointed out how the Jews of the time misinterpreted the MEANING of the old testament and the rules within it...

the parable of the good Samaritan for one, where the priest and the Levite passed by, the injured and left for dead man, because they saw his blood as being unclean and the rules regarding such, so they did not help him...

When Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath they accused him of doing wrong or being Beelzebub

when the religious leaders turned the outside of the temple in to a market of money changers....and ripped off the every day Jews just trying to follow the rules and pay respect to the Lord....

On and on and on and on, Jesus pointed out to the supposed religious leaders of the time that they interpreted the Bible (old testament) wrongly.

Do you mean, like the liberals "misinterpreted" the NT to manipulate or control Christians?

The OT is very important to understanding the Lord and Yeshua. Seperating the two is willful ignorance.

 

[del]

yeshua

 

[L.K.Eder]

Yeshua was the fullfillment of the OT. Yeshua is part of the OT.

yes true, but over and over and over and over Christ pointed out how the Jews of the time misinterpreted the MEANING of the old testament and the rules within it...

the parable of the good Samaritan for one, where the priest and the Levite passed by, the injured and left for dead man, because they saw his blood as being unclean and the rules regarding such, so they did not help him...

When Jesus healed the sick on the Sabbath they accused him of doing wrong or being Beelzebub

when the religious leaders turned the outside of the temple in to a market of money changers....and ripped off the every day Jews just trying to follow the rules and pay respect to the Lord....

On and on and on and on, Jesus pointed out to the supposed religious leaders of the time that they interpreted the Bible (old testament) wrongly.

Do you mean, like the liberals "misinterpreted" the NT to manipulate or control Christians?

The OT is very important to understanding the Lord and Yeshua. Seperating the two is willful ignorance.

aren't they three?

 

[logical4u]

Thanks, Care. Not to mention that the passage he is referencing is to not fall in with a bad crowd and do evil, among other thing robbing people.

And no, that doesn't refer to collecting taxes.

His application would have one assuming that Jesus believed all forms of government were evil and in fact charitable organizations in general were evil. Heck, you could even make the case, following his logic, that Jesus believes Churches are evil.

So yeah, dismissed.

Another "intellectual elite"...

If you can't deal with the subject twist it into something you can. Deja vu!

 

[logical4u]

Jesus NEVER spoke out against gvt, not even against the Roman gvt, as the pharisees tried to trick him in to doing, thus his answer on taxes that have to be paid to the Romans...''give unto Caesar what is his'' .....

And what is Caesers then? Anything he asks/demands? Was the Roman government handing out welfare to the poor? I don't think so. Christ's message is about personal salvation and what is in your heart, it wasn't about going around and forcing others to follow your beliefs of being benevolent to the poor, especially via a third party. It was about your own convictions of giving directly and helping directly those that had need. It was personal. If we use your argument, then everyone who pays taxes is following the words of Christ, even if it is not in their heart to help anyone. I don't know of any pastor that would affirm that you're doing what Christ preached about helping the poor by simply paying your taxes.

the Jewish government collected taxes per say from the Jewish people...and yes, it was a Theocracy and the religious leaders were the government....the Jewish people were upset that they had to pay taxes (via tithings and other rules) to their theocratic government and pay them to the Roman Government.... Jesus told them to basically do what the Romans wanted and pay the taxes.

Do you think Jesus did not know what was in their hearts? Do you think He did not know how upset they were about paying these taxes to the Romans? He disregarded these ill feelings of theirs and them being upset, and told them to pay what was asked by the Romans.

We have a different government now than back then, we do not live under a theocracy along with the Roman Government, we live under a Democratic Republic and every one of us has representation that make those important votes on legislation....if we don't agree with our government we can vote them out and put in new...we do have a say in our country.

some times we as individuals get what we want, and sometimes we don't.

I never said that Christ would accept that having our government help the poorest is ALL we should be doing....but I know He would not be against a government that tried to help the poorest, because he was NOT against the Jewish gvt of the time doing such.

There are no words in the Holy Bible of Jesus or anyone, that speaks out against a government that helps the needy or the sick, absolutely NONE.

So, to me, this is something you and others have simply MADE UP.

do I think we have problems with waste in our government...yes, we do.....but so did the Jewish gvt during Christ's time.

Do I think that we have some people that abuse the system....yes we do...as I am certain there were some that did the same during Christ's lifetime.

I have no issue with trying to address these problems of waste and abuse within our government....

I believe it was more likely that Yeshua knew if the Jews refused to pay, there would be a total stain where the Jewish people used to live (kind of like telling slaves to serve their masters, because a slave rebellion would end up in a whole lot of people dead, and harsher treatment for surviving slaves).

No, Yeshua does not speak against gov'ts helping people, but He definitely speaks (along with His Father) about people relying on (man) gov't over the Lord. That is what "welfare" does; it causes the recipients to have "faith" in gov't over the Lord (that would be directly against what Yeshua taught).

I understand that you will disregard this, because you seem to worship the gov't before you worship the Lord, and your posts suggest "supporting" the gov't (as a god), before looking at the Lord, or even providing for your family's needs. And then you probably wonder what has gone wrong with the country....

 

[dblack]

Isn't the whole idea of morality and following God centered around the idea that it's a voluntary choice? My understanding of Christian dogma is that God created people with free will, and that it was then up to them to choose their course.

Given that, I'd suspect Jesus would have been opposed to state-mandated charity and preferred to see us giving out of voluntary generosity and compassion, rather simply following orders.

 

[Ravi]

No, Yeshua does not speak against gov'ts helping people, but He definitely speaks (along with His Father) about people relying on (man) gov't over the Lord. That is what "welfare" does; it causes the recipients to have "faith" in gov't over the Lord (that would be directly against what Yeshua taught).

That's ridiculous. There is no evidence to back up your silly assertion.

If there are Christian individuals that have faith in government over faith in God I'd be interested in meeting them. And I'm sure they will squirm a bit trying to get past the pearly gates.

But your thinking reveals that YOU want the government to assure that people don't have faith in government over God and that is quite ironic.

 

[Ravi]

Isn't the whole idea of morality and following God centered around the idea that it's a voluntary choice? My understanding of Christian dogma is that God created people with free will, and that it was then up to them to choose their course.

Given that, I'd suspect Jesus would have been opposed to state-mandated charity and preferred to see us giving out of voluntary generosity and compassion, rather simply following orders.

Not if the state-mandated charity was what society chose. There's nothing about it that precludes giving individually, btw.

 

[dblack]

Isn't the whole idea of morality and following God centered around the idea that it's a voluntary choice? My understanding of Christian dogma is that God created people with free will, and that it was then up to them to choose their course.

Given that, I'd suspect Jesus would have been opposed to state-mandated charity and preferred to see us giving out of voluntary generosity and compassion, rather simply following orders.

Not if the state-mandated charity was what society chose. There's nothing about it that precludes giving individually, btw.

The question of whether we should care for the less fortunate is distinctly different than the question of whether we should force our neighbors to do so.

 

[Newby]

yeah, it was

does the term *bread and circus* ring a bell?

do the schools teach history any more?

Okay, care to explain how 'bread and circus' could be considered 'welfare'? Or are you just describing today's welfare in the U.S. as being 'bread and circus'? Now that I could see, tossing literal crumbs to the uneducated masses to keep them stupid, compliant, happy, and voting democrat.

it was about keeping the populace fed and entertained... in order to keep government in power.

again... history.

as for keeping people stupid, compliant and voting republican, we'd be talking about pretending that creationism is science and giving the religious right all the misogynist legislation they can handle.

as long as the right gets that, they couldn't care less if the president runs two pretend wars of choice, keeps on cutting taxes for people who don't need their taxes cut, and cuts education, services, infrastructure and everything else that people actually need.

but you get your anti-choice legislation

and "christians" who hate poor people being fed and given medical care would really tick off jesus.

Congrats! You have a whole strawman family there!!! It's a shame, because sometimes I wonder if you people on the left really believe all of these positions that you make up for conservatives? Are you to the point where it's gone past political posturing and spreading propaganda to those less informed, to where you actually believe what you say because you've been saying it for so long?

Claiming that conservative and/or christians are against science is ridiculous, and to claim that they would watch poor people starve in the streets is beyond ridiculous. But, if that's what you have to convince yourself of in order to harbor and rationalize the contempt and hate you feel for those that have differing opinions from yours, you have my sympathies.

 

[Newby]

Isn't the whole idea of morality and following God centered around the idea that it's a voluntary choice? My understanding of Christian dogma is that God created people with free will, and that it was then up to them to choose their course.

Given that, I'd suspect Jesus would have been opposed to state-mandated charity and preferred to see us giving out of voluntary generosity and compassion, rather simply following orders.

Not if the state-mandated charity was what society chose. There's nothing about it that precludes giving individually, btw.

'Society' is not going to be standing beside you when you stand in front of God for judgment. Only you, the individual, and what you have done with your life. If you had to be told by 'society' or forced by 'society' to do what you should have done on your own of free will, I'm guessing it's not going to count for much.

 

[Newby]

Isn't the whole idea of morality and following God centered around the idea that it's a voluntary choice? My understanding of Christian dogma is that God created people with free will, and that it was then up to them to choose their course.

Given that, I'd suspect Jesus would have been opposed to state-mandated charity and preferred to see us giving out of voluntary generosity and compassion, rather simply following orders.

Not if the state-mandated charity was what society chose. There's nothing about it that precludes giving individually, btw.

The question of whether we should care for the less fortunate is distinctly different than the question of whether we should force our neighbors to do so.

Absolutely. They apparently are just not grasping this concept.

 

[Ravi]

Isn't the whole idea of morality and following God centered around the idea that it's a voluntary choice? My understanding of Christian dogma is that God created people with free will, and that it was then up to them to choose their course.

Given that, I'd suspect Jesus would have been opposed to state-mandated charity and preferred to see us giving out of voluntary generosity and compassion, rather simply following orders.

Not if the state-mandated charity was what society chose. There's nothing about it that precludes giving individually, btw.

The question of whether we should care for the less fortunate is distinctly different than the question of whether we should force our neighbors to do so.

There's no force involved. You can either be a member of a society or not.

 

[Newby]

Not if the state-mandated charity was what society chose. There's nothing about it that precludes giving individually, btw.

The question of whether we should care for the less fortunate is distinctly different than the question of whether we should force our neighbors to do so.

There's no force involved. You can either be a member of a society or not.

What a completely naive statement.