Who Will Go To Heaven?

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by wonderwench
What I find interesting and disturbing is the undercurrent of joy and ancitipation of the part of some of the fervent Christians that those who do not believe the way they do will go to hell. There is a small-mindedness in savoring the future suffering of others.

I would add that God has given Man freewill for the reason that He does not wish to be an idol. If we had no choice but to worship Him, then our worship wouldn't mean very much.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Some thoughts on this topic:

- There is a great deal of confusion between what is God and what is manmade dogma. Despite the claims that the Bible is the word of God, it has been written, edited and translated by men for centuries.

- The historical context is very misunderstood. Centuries ago, most people were illiterate and the main mode of learning was through stories and parables. These were not to be intepreted in the literal sense that some here are doing.

- Those of you who are dwelling on the existence of heaven and hell have fallen into the trap of Platonic philosophy: there are two worlds. The physical world is sinful and miserable; the joyous world is the afterlife, which we cannot experience until after we die. The Platonic view was seized upon by powerseekers. It is very easy to control someone when they are supposed to put their faith into something they will not truly know until after they are dead. The contrasting philosophy is Aristotelian: we live in reality and have the faculty of reason with which we may understand the universe. Why did God give us the faculty of reason if he did not wish us to use it?

- Religions are forms of philosophies which specify the values that one should follow to live a good life. Stripping away the dogma of organized religion, the eternal truths which are life affirming are best summed up in the Golden Rule. What I find interesting and disturbing is the undercurrent of joy and ancitipation on the part of some of the fervent Christians that those who do not believe the way they do will go to hell. There is a small-mindedness in savoring the future suffering of others. I doubt this is what Jesus meant in his parables and teachings. Nor is it the congruent with the manner in which he led his life.

- Those who are advocating a very literal interpretation of the Bible portray a vengeful God who is more concerned with Faith and being worshipped than the lives of the people he created. To think that God would condemn to hell someone who, in his dealings with others, followed Jesus' example of loving thy neighbor, merely because he doesn't worship God, is to think that God wishes to be an idol.

It comes down to this: do we think we were created in order to bow down to a vengeful God? Or do we believe we were created by a benevolent entity who designed us to lead fulfilling lives? The truth stripped bare of dogma supports the latter.

I don't know how to say this any other way...but based on what you've written here, you fail to understand God. If you can't believe in the Word of God, you can't believe IN GOD. :-/

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives


I would add that God has given Man freewill for the reason that He does not wish to be an idol. If we had no choice but to worship Him, then our worship wouldn't mean very much.

Have you read the bible?

God created us for fellowship with Him. As God can't tolerate Sin, we are seperated from that. Christ is the means with which we bridge the gap, so to speak.

 

[wonderwench]

You have no right to judge anyone else's relationship with God.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by dmp
I don't know how to say this any other way...but based on what you've written here, you fail to understand God. If you can't believe in the Word of God, you can't believe IN GOD. :-/

You have a very narrow view of God, theology, and metaphysical reality in general, my friend. Do you imagine the Christian Bible is the only book that has ever been interpreted as His literal word?

 

[wonderwench]

How do you interpret this passage from the Bible:

Timothy 2 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.


If I take this literally, women who braid their hair are going to hell.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
How do you interpret this passage from the Bible:

Timothy 2 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.


If I take this literally, women who braid their hair are going to hell.

Interpret? As in "Into another language"?

Or are you asking 'what does this scripture, out of context, mean?

This scripture was addressing people taking Pride in their appearence; dressing to impress, or to build up 'self'. In this passage we are taught to let our actions define who we are, not our possessions (clothes).

Further:

[qutoe]1 Tim 2:8Since prayer is at the bottom of all this, what I want mostly is for men to pray--not shaking angry fists at enemies but raising holy hands to God. 9And I want women to get in there with the men in humility before God, not primping before a mirror or chasing the latest fashions 10but doing something beautiful for God and becoming beautiful doing it.[/quote]

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by dmp
Have you read the bible?

God created us for fellowship with Him. As God can't tolerate Sin, we are seperated from that. Christ is the means with which we bridge the gap, so to speak.

Yes, as a matter of fact I've read it backwards and forward several times. Whether God created us to worship Him is debatable. Whether He intends that we do so slavishly and against our will is not. Why would He have given us freewill if He wanted us to worship in the manner of puppets on a string that He Himself manipulated? What sort of satisfaction would He get from mechanical or counterfeit praise?

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by dmp
Interpret? As in "Into another language"?

Or are you asking 'what does this scripture, out of context, mean?

This scripture was addressing people taking Pride in their appearence; dressing to impress, or to build up 'self'. In this passage we are taught to let our actions define who we are, not our possessions (clothes).

Then you are being inconsistent. It quite literally says that women should not braid their hair. If I apply the same reasoning as you do to the passages on homosexuality, then women who braid their hair are going to hell.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Then you are being inconsistent. It quite literally says that women should not braid their hair. If I apply the same reasoning as you do to the passages on homosexuality, then women who braid their hair are going to hell.

I am not being inconsistant - that scripture, in context, clearly is a lesson on taking Pride in our appearance. The scriptures on homosexuality are quite clear, in context, about how God feels about that particular sin.

 

[wonderwench]

Nope. It says quite literally that women should not braid their hair.

Hmmm...And now that I come to think of it - gold wedding bands should also condemn women to hell.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives
Yes, as a matter of fact I've read it backwards and forward several times. Whether God created us to worship Him is debatable. Whether He intends that we do so slavishly and against our will is not. Why would He have given us freewill if He wanted us to worship in the manner of puppets on a string that He Himself manipulated? What sort of satisfaction would He get from mechanical or counterfeit praise?

That is something different - Of course God wants us to Love him of our own free will...apart from that, there can BE no Love. Now, God allowing us to choose NOT to love him, and him CONDONING us 'not loving Him' are two different things.

 

[wonderwench]

God punishing people for not loving him is not exactly respecting the concept of free will.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Nope. It says quite literally that women should not braid their hair.

Hmmm...And now that I come to think of it - gold wedding bands should also condemn women to hell.

See? At the root of your problem is taking the parts of the bible you want to OUT OF CONTEXT and trying to apply them to your life. (shrug). You don't want to know Truth, my friend. You want to pick the Bible apart, to find out-of-context scripture to justify your acceptance of sin.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by dmp
See? At the root of your problem is taking the parts of the bible you want to OUT OF CONTEXT and trying to apply them to your life. (shrug). You don't want to know Truth, my friend. You want to pick the Bible apart, to find out-of-context scripture to justify your acceptance of sin.

Sorry, hun. You are doing the same.

BTW - do you eat bacon?

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
God punishing people for not loving him is not exactly respecting the concept of free will.

That doesn't make any sense.

Do criminals have the free will to steal or to kill? Sure they do. Should they not be punished?

We are free to choose Death...and eternity away from Him. "If you really love something...let it go..." remember that?

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Sorry, hun. You are doing the same.

BTW - do you eat bacon?

Again - show me? I've explained the context of that scripture to you, yet you refuse to present scripture, in context, which supports Homosexuality as 'not' being sinful.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by dmp
That doesn't make any sense.

Do criminals have the free will to steal or to kill? Sure they do. Should they not be punished?

We are free to choose Death...and eternity away from Him. "If you really love something...let it go..." remember that?

Then in your view God created humans in order to be worshipped as an idol.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by dmp
Again - show me? I've explained the context of that scripture to you, yet you refuse to present scripture, in context, which supports Homosexuality as 'not' being sinful.

I for one do not intend to get into quibbles over the meaning of this or that verse in the Bible. Religion is supposed to be a spiritual pursuit, not an academic pursuit or a word game. Therefore, anyone who wishes to learn Truth would do well to live by the spirit of Scripture, not the letter. Now, the general essence or "spirit" of what Christ was trying to get at is that we should love our fellow man and help him avoid behavior that might have dire consequences for him and others. There may not be a specific verse that says that in exactly the same way I just did, but very few people will say it's a bad way to live.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by dmp
Again - show me? I've explained the context of that scripture to you, yet you refuse to present scripture, in context, which supports Homosexuality as 'not' being sinful.

You are ignoring the fact that the mores of the time are littered throughout the text of the bible. Read Leviticus and see all of the prohibitions on food. There was a reason for it at the time due to lack of refrigeration.

Likewise, there is substantial room for interpretation in the various passages about men lying with men and the definition of a Sodomite. One differing interpretation has to do with the uncharitable nature of the people of Sodom. These passages have been translated and retranslated, often for dogmatic purposes for centuries. Applying dogma from the middle ages makes no sense as the world has modernized. Think about the big die off of humans during the Black Plague, and encouraging child birth makes sense. Think about the Crusades, and encouraging breeding more Christians to combat the Muslims makes sense. At this point, we do not have to worry about the world lacking humans.

God gave us reason - and if reason contradicts the literal interpretation, then I conclude that it is dogma.