Who Will Go To Heaven?

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives
I for one do not intend to get into quibbles over the meaning of this or that verse in the Bible. Religion is supposed to be a spiritual pursuit, not an academic pursuit or a word game. Therefore, anyone who wishes to learn Truth would do well to live by the spirit of Scripture, not the letter. Now, the general essence or "spirit" of what Christ was trying to get at is that we should love our fellow man and help him avoid behavior that might have dire consequences for him and others. There may not be a specific verse that says that in exactly the same way I just did, but very few people will say it's a bad way to live.

Well said, SM. I think the Golden Rule says it quite well.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Then in your view God created humans in order to be worshipped as an idol.

God did create humans, and He does expect to be worshipped. But calling God an idol is quite a stretch. What should someone worship in the place of God?

 

[wonderwench]

Worship me or I will condemn you to Hell.

That pretty much looks like someone who wants to be an idol.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
God did create humans, and He does expect to be worshipped. But calling God an idol is quite a stretch. What should someone worship in the place of God?

I think WW's point is that God may as well be an idol if we have no choice but to worship Him, because neither party would get any benefit out of that type of arrangement.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by wonderwench
Worship me or I will condemn you to Hell.

That pretty much looks like someone who wants to be an idol.

Unless that being has the right to be worshipped, in which case you probably ought to reconsider.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Speaking of idolatry, did it occur to anyone here that when we become obsessed with our cars, our stereos, our clothes, our CD or DVD collection, our health club membership, or any other status symbol, that we're committing idolatry also?

 

[wonderwench]

SM, it is idolatry. Making things more important than people is an unhealthy way to live.

I can't remember where I heard or read this, but I love this little anecdote. I'll put it in my own words.

A man went to dinner at a friend's parents' house. After a lovely meal, the elderly mother served after dinner liqueurs in some of the family's heirloom crystal. The guest accidently dropped his glass, shattering the crystal. He was embarrassed and horrified. Seeing this, the mother tossed her own glass into the fire place, saying "People are more important than things."

 

[Big D]

Christians are so confused, I love being Jewish.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Big D
Christians are so confused, I love being Jewish.

Have you discussed your faith with William?

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Have you discussed your faith with William?

I have tried, but I think he likes me.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Big D
I have tried, but I think he likes me.

He has a rather odd view on Jews. I'm surprised he would associate with the enemy.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by jimnyc
He has a rather odd view on Jews. I'm surprised he would associate with the enemy.

Jews as are many Christians are very compassionate people, this compassion for people who are less fortunate is noble, but is destructive to the enviroment of the U.S.

I belive William sees the compassion of Jews as a evil plot to ruin America.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
God did create humans, and He does expect to be worshipped.

But..How do you know this?

 

[Avatar4321]

I guess it depends. If neither repent and come unto Christ, then neither will. But if they both do (and remember repenting involves forsaking sins) then the Atonement will work in their life and they will be saved eventually.

We all make mistakes. Yet Christ has given His life for our mistakes. He has suffered so that we dont have to if we repent and if we dont repent, if we spurn the Atonment and refuse the relief He has offered mankind, then we must suffer as He suffered.

We will all have the chance to choose. We will choose how happy we will be in this life and the life to come. Hypothetical situations really dont matter. What matters if when presented with Truth you continue to seek and live it.

 

[Avatar4321]

"Okay, let's strip the hypothetical situation of its presumed Christian context and look at it in purely spiritual terms. There, we can readily see that both are too absorbed in the external aspects of what they call "reality" - sex, money, lifestyle, etc. - to even begin a dialog with their true inner selves. Moreover, neither seems to be aware that such an entity exists or would know where to begin even if they were aware of its existence, much less has the least interest in making the prolonged and concerted effort to do so over the course of a lifetime. Therefore, neither will ever be able to pass through the proverbial eye of the needle."

First, I have to say that its kinda hard to strip heaven and hell from its Christian context since Heaven and Hell are Christian concepts. (although hell is not exactly portrayed how things really are, i chaulk that up to bad translation) but if you are going to talk about heaven or hell it generally is a Christian idea. Being the not as typical Christian i dont believe how it is generally viewed. But it is nonetheless difficult to remove it from a Christian talk context.

Also its very hard to ignore sex, money, lifestyle, etc in regards to spirituality. For one, Everything effects our spirituality. Sex, is one of the more spiritual acts a man and woman can engage in. Money, the good use of, or the bad love of it, affects one spirituality. All of these "External" aspects of reality reflect on ones character, and character is a strong part of spirituality. I do agree however, that some people can be distracted by things of less of a priority.

 

[Avatar4321]

"God punishing people for not loving him is not exactly respecting the concept of free will."

God doesnt punish people for not loving Him. However, God is a God of Justice and has established laws that will bring joy and prosperity to those who obey them. Because God is perfectly just, he must carry out any punishment that is due through the breaking of the law.

Yet God loves us. He does not want to see us punished any more than any parent wants to see their child punished. He wants us close to Him like any parent would. But we all make mistakes. we all violate the laws of God. and Mercy cannot rob justice so the punishment afixed to the law must be carried out.

But as God is also merciful, He provided a way where justice could be paid, and mercy also extended. And so our Savior volunteered to be a Mediator for us. He was willing to pay for our sins with His blood. But we can only be saved from our sins if we repent. We cant be saved in our sins. It would be denying God's words and God does not lie.

God is willing to help us Repent. He is willing to take our sins away from us, if we choose to. If we have a broken heart and contrite Spirit and are willing to and strive to follow Him, God has said we shall be saved. But if we are ungrateful for what He has done, unwilling to follow Him, continue to live and wallow in our sins making a mockery of the death of His Son, then justice will fall on us, not because God is unloving, but because we are.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Avatar4321


God doesnt punish people for not loving Him. However, God is a God of Justice and has established laws that will bring joy and prosperity to those who obey them. Because God is perfectly just, he must carry out any punishment that is due through the breaking of the law.

Yet God loves us. He does not want to see us punished any more than any parent wants to see their child punished. He wants us close to Him like any parent would. But we all make mistakes. we all violate the laws of God. and Mercy cannot rob justice so the punishment afixed to the law must be carried out.

But as God is also merciful, He provided a way where justice could be paid, and mercy also extended. And so our Savior volunteered to be a Mediator for us. He was willing to pay for our sins with His blood. But we can only be saved from our sins if we repent. We cant be saved in our sins. It would be denying God's words and God does not lie.

God is willing to help us Repent. He is willing to take our sins away from us, if we choose to. If we have a broken heart and contrite Spirit and are willing to and strive to follow Him, God has said we shall be saved. But if we are ungrateful for what He has done, unwilling to follow Him, continue to live and wallow in our sins making a mockery of the death of His Son, then justice will fall on us, not because God is unloving, but because we are.

Yes, that's all very nice, but how do you know these things?

You aren't doing much more than reiterating dogma that's been said time and time again, with no real understanding of what's being said. And all the while, you ignore the question...How do you know what God wants?

 

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by wonderwench
The recent threads about gays and the religious tone of some posts has caused me to ponder how you all would judge
...
Which of these two do you think God would allow into heaven and why?

Coming to this topic a little late is like jumping into niagra, but here's my answer.

Bob reminds me of julius II . He may go to hell, because he expects his mere attendance and position in the church to give him entry, while I think there is nothing about his acts that merit his going to heaven.

"The best evidence for this comes from the dialog "Julius Excluded from Heaven". By modern standards, it's not particularly remarkable: Pope Julius II, on dying, arrives in heaven expecting a glorious welcome, but Saint Peter demands that he, like any other heaven-bound soul, justify his entrance. Julius is furious, insisting that his rank demands immediate admission. When Peter demurs, Julius threatens to make war on him just as he did on earth. His impotent fulminations achieve nothing, and he is turned away. link

Keys to the gates don't affect wether you get into heaven, neither do confessions or following all the rules, or admonishing others for not following them. It's how you live your lives with others, and respect the way they live their lives, and respect your own life. I don't think you can single someone out as going to hell for being an aethist, simply being gay, etc. It is a good bet that any person who disrespects the right of others or otherwise abuses them physically is earning some time in purgatory.

 

[Joz]

Just got home & tho't I'd catch up.

Looks to me like things went sorta downhill. I hear alot of 'if God this' or 'if God that.'

For the moment, forget everything but the Ten Commandents. If you live by just those 10 rules there's really nothing else. The first 6 about God & the last 4 about man. It's that simple.

Someone wrote earlier about God condoning slavery. (and also the subject of rape was discussed) I believe the person said that if God was against slavery, He'd have said it. I believe He did.

You'll find it in 'Thou shalt not covet......' How arrogant that one would covet enough to take a man's life from him to have him live a life of service. Or that you'd covet another person's body so much as to force yourself upon them.

David coveted Bathsheba so much he murdered for her. (What woman wouldn't want to be found sooooo desireable?) Yet God said David was a man after His own heart.

That is what I meant when I said God has only so much to work with. There has been slavery, and poligamy & murdering and the list goes on. As man makes his choices, God works with what He's got.

His ways are never changing. We [society] are by our choices. .

Last night it was said that if something was done in the privacy of a person's home that was okay. Well, that's not entirely true.

There are some things that transpire between a man & a woman that I wouldn't necessarily do. But does it do lasting harm to society. Probably not. But perversion between men & women or homosexuality infiltrates society. It weakens man and with it it brings disease. Condoning this type of union is wrong.

I work in public service and I have a few gay couples as costumers. Some of them are VERY nice people. Kind, compassionate. But what they do is wrong. Not that we don't all sin, that's not what I'm saying. We as a society donot tolerate other things that weaken society such as harming children, or murdering or beating up people or taking things that don't belong to you. So why this?

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
First, I have to say that its kinda hard to strip heaven and hell from its Christian context since Heaven and Hell are Christian concepts.

The concept of an afterlife of rewards and punishments is by no means exclusive to Christianity. I know it's very difficult for Christians to think about religion in terms other than their own religion, but it's not impossible. It just takes an open mind and a bit of study of what else is out there.

Originally posted by Avatar4321
All of these "External" aspects of reality reflect on ones character, and character is a strong part of spirituality.

Man is only bound to materialism and his baser impulses only insofar as he lacks the will to put them aside. But that is exactly what is required to get at his true character. This was understood better in ages past than it is today. For the vast majority of people today, religion is more of a vicarious experience (like modern culture in general) than a personal experience. We tend to get what we know from books or what other people tell us (science, clergymen, the media, Hollywood, Madison Avenue, etc.) rather than making the tremendous effort to become acquainted with truth firsthand. Again, this is likely due to the numerous diversions available in our culture. As near as I can tell, only one in a million persons ever turns off the noise long enough to listen to that quiet inner voice. As Israel Regardie wrote, "Everything that can die must die before the Eternal can be expressed." The symbol of Christ (the body) dying on the cross (materialism) was intended to convey this meaning to those who have understanding.

Originally posted by Avatar4321
I do agree however, that some people can be distracted by things of less of a priority.

At least you're on the right track there, Although I submit that those things of lesser priority are still given far more priority than they're due by most people. Again, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (i.e., someone who clings to worldly things) to get to heaven.