Who Will Go To Heaven?

[wonderwench]

The recent threads about gays and the religious tone of some posts has caused me to ponder how you all would judge the following:

There are two men, John and Bob.

John is a very decent man. He runs a small business paying his employees above the market rate. He donates to charities in his community and does extensive volunteer work. His widowed mother lives close by - he visits her frequently, does chores for her and runs errands. He has set up trust funds for his nieces and nephews to help with their college education.

Bob is not a decent man. He also runs a small business, but unlike John, he is verbally abusive to his employees. The turnover is quite frequent, but he doesn't care. They are all interchangeable to him. He is married with two kids, and equally emotionally abusive to his family. He spends his free time glued to the television or in a sports bar. He is estranged from his parents and siblings.

John is an atheist. He is also gay.

Bob is a Christian and attends church each Sunday morning. After he hurts people, he feels remorse and begs God for forgiveness. But his behavior never changes.

Which of these two do you think God would allow into heaven and why?

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
The recent threads about gays and the religious tone of some posts has caused me to ponder how you all would judge the following:

There are two men, John and Bob.

John is a very decent man. He runs a small business paying his employees above the market rate. He donates to charities in his community and does extensive volunteer work. His widowed mother lives close by - he visits her frequently, does chores for her and runs errands. He has set up trust funds for his nieces and nephews to help with their college education.

Bob is not a decent man. He also runs a small business, but unlike John, he is verbally abusive to his employees. The turnover is quite frequent, but he doesn't care. They are all interchangeable to him. He is married with two kids, and equally emotionally abusive to his family. He spends his free time glued to the television or in a sports bar. He is estranged from his parents and siblings.

John is an atheist. He is also gay.

Bob is a Christian and attends church each Sunday morning. After he hurts people, he feels remorse and begs God for forgiveness. But his behavior never changes.

Which of these two do you think God would allow into heaven and why?

Probably neither?

You stating what 'each man does' is irrellavent. NOBODY gets to God through what they DO...

The Bible tells us "Many will stand before God and say 'God! Look! we fed the hungry! We healed the sick! We gave to Charrities!" God will say, "Depart from me, you workers of sin, I never knew you". That teaches us to stop being so caught up in the 'big things' seen by men; the things we do in front of others are rewarded BY others. The things we do in privacy, in honesty before God will be rewarded by God.

Salvation is awared by God based on our HEARTS. Homosexuality is clearly a sin. So is 'not loving your spouse' or 'abusing your kids'. God doesn't Grade sin. If either or both man honestly repents, and surrenders fully to Christ, then either has the same chance. The difference is, the man who abuses his family isn't pushing for rights to allow him to abuse his family at will.

You question is typical of somebody who knows about God...but doesn't know WHO God is - I'm not saying that as an insult - but an observation.

Seek Truth...Seek Christ, friend.

 

[wonderwench]

I am not going to comment until after a few others have stated their opinions.

 

[OCA]

Neither.

John will not simply because he is gay which is an abomination in the eyes of the lord.

Bob will not because he is lukewarm in the eyes of the lord. He continues to act in the same manner and begs forgiveness but his heart and soul is still weak.

I am as guilty of sin as anybody and if I died right now i'd probably have hot feet but I do know what the bible says and believe it to be correct. Grandmother is very religious.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by wonderwench
I am not going to comment until after a few others have stated their opinions.

You just did.

People can and probably will share their opinions. The Truth, however, is clearly outlined in scripture.

No one comes to God, except thru Christ Jesus. If they refuse all or part of the Teachings of Christ, they by default refuse God.

 

[OCA]

I must add that a person can be gay but never act upon it and get to heaven but he still must not lust in his heart, that goes for heteros and homos alike. This is my big problem hehehe

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by OCA
Neither.

John will not simply because he is gay which is an abomination in the eyes of the lord.

Bob will not because he is lukewarm in the eyes of the lord. He continues to act in the same manner and begs forgiveness but his heart and soul is still weak.

I am as guilty of sin as anybody and if I died right now i'd probably have hot feet but I do know what the bible says and believe it to be correct. Grandmother is very religious.

Sometimes Christians get caught in the trap that if they, say, tell a lie, then die before asking forgiveness, they are damned to hell. I dispute this. God knows our nature....God knows our weakness. Salvation cannot be taken away; we are God's children...he protects us. This is not a license to sin, but a testimony of God's saving grace; inspite of our human, carnal nature.

Repent. Choose Christ. Pray. Love people. Strive to study God's word - that will help keep you from sin.

"I have hidden your word in my heart, that I may not sin against you, Lord"


to ya.

 

[Big D]

Everyone goes to heaven

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by dmp
You just did.

People can and probably will share their opinions. The Truth, however, is clearly outlined in scripture.

No one comes to God, except thru Christ Jesus. If they refuse all or part of the Teachings of Christ, they by default refuse God.

This is absolutely correct although just because you have publicly accepted Christ as your savior does not mean you have a free ticket which is where alot of people go wrong in my opinion.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by OCA
I must add that a person can be gay but never act upon it and get to heaven but he still must not lust in his heart, that goes for heteros and homos alike. This is my big problem hehehe

Right - It's not the homosexual activies which are the sin so much as the rebelion against God's word. The sin is in giving over to our carnal nature. Thumbing our nose, so to speak, at God.

The Bible teaches that "Even if a man LOOKS at a woman and thinks "Boy-oh-boy, would I LOVE to get a piece of THAT ass!", and lusts after her, he's already committed adultry with her, in his heart. " That is the point of sin. Him ACTING on said lust creates a whole NEW set of problems.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by OCA
This is absolutely correct although just because you have publicly accepted Christ as your savior does not mean you have a free ticket which is where alot of people go wrong in my opinion.

I agree - Accepting Christ is not a one-time event. DAILY must we pray, and ask God to renew our mind, and keep us Holy. Accepting Christ, say, at an Alter-call, is ritual most likely. LIVING a Christ-centered life is what it means to be a "Christian".

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by Big D
Everyone goes to heaven

Wrong. Then why is there such thing as hell which is mentioned in most religions? Or better yet if we are all going to heaven why have religions at all?

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by OCA
Wrong. Then why is there such thing as hell which is mentioned in most religions? Or better yet if we are all going to heaven why have religions at all?

Don't feed him...Let it go...don't let peopl bait you.

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by dmp
Right - It's not the homosexual activies which are the sin so much as the rebelion against God's word. The sin is in giving over to our carnal nature. Thumbing our nose, so to speak, at God.

The Bible teaches that "Even if a man LOOKS at a woman and thinks "Boy-oh-boy, would I LOVE to get a piece of THAT ass!", and lusts after her, he's already committed adultry with her, in his heart. " That is the point of sin. Him ACTING on said lust creates a whole NEW set of problems.

And man have I done both a time or 100

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by OCA
And man have I done both a time or 100

...and you aren't alone. Everyone messes up, and falls short of what His plan for us should be. We all have to be picked back up onto our feet from time to time.

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by dmp
Sometimes Christians get caught in the trap that if they, say, tell a lie, then die before asking forgiveness, they are damned to hell. I dispute this. God knows our nature....God knows our weakness. Salvation cannot be taken away; we are God's children...he protects us. This is not a license to sin, but a testimony of God's saving grace; inspite of our human, carnal nature.

Repent. Choose Christ. Pray. Love people. Strive to study God's word - that will help keep you from sin.

"I have hidden your word in my heart, that I may not sin against you, Lord"


to ya.

Ok I don't have it in front of me now but there is scriptures that say something about a person being lukewarm in his devotion to Christ and that is unacceptable to God and he will also spit him out or something like that. I do know that you are either hot or cold to him.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by OCA
Ok I don't have it in front of me now but there is scriptures that say something about a person being lukewarm in his devotion to Christ and that is unacceptable to God and he will also spit him out or something like that. I do know that you are either hot or cold to him.

Yeah - that's true. That shows us that 'sin is sin'...whether it's the sin of homosexuality, or the sin of lust or hatred, etc.

I think I need to change that a bit: The Hot or Cold scripture tells us how God can work in the hearts of somebody completely turned OFF to him...he can become a recognizable presence. In the person who is 'hot', they are living a testimony to God. But the person in the middle does the real harm. They take the knowledge God has given them; the grace, and waffle back and forth. They are double-minded.

The Bible teaches that a double-minded person is unstable in ALL his ways; let not that dude expect to receieve ANYTHING from Christ.

 

[OCA]

My question is this: ok there are homosexual clergy out there in some of the mainstream religions that use the bible right? Ok, how can these clergy pretend to guide their flock when the very bible they hold condemns their lifestyle? Do they conveniently skip that part or is it interpretation? Not much room for interpretation in the verses on it in Romans. I'm not saying that strait clergy don't have their own problems but at least not that I know of do they interpret the bible for their own political or personal reasons.

 

[_dmp_]

Originally posted by OCA
My question is this: ok there are homosexual clergy out there in some of the mainstream religions that use the bible right? Ok, how can these clergy pretend to guide their flock when the very bible they hold condemns their lifestyle? Do they conveniently skip that part or is it interpretation? Not much room for interpretation in the verses on it in Romans. I'm not saying that strait clergy don't have their own problems but at least not that I know of do they interpret the bible for their own political or personal reasons.

I can't presume to know their reasoning; but I do know that there are, and have been 'preachers' or 'ministers' throughout history who have held some sin in their lives. Gluttony. Greed. Lust. Democrat (cheap-shot, i know ).

The difference is, generally, those ministers kept those things in private - today's ministers have the audacity to proudly proclaim their sin.

"Narrow is the path that leads to salvation, a few will find it. Broad is the way which leads to destruction, many will find it."

Know which path 'OCA' is on...keep your path true.

love,

Darin

 

[OCA]

I guess what i'm saying is if a clergyman is openly gay and as I believe unless he repents and changes his lifestyle he cannot enter heaven then how can he lead a flock, counseling them in the ways of the lord?