White man shoots innocent black teen....

[C_Clayton_Jones]

In Florida:

The “Stand Your Ground” Law introduced two (2) conclusive presumptions that favor a criminal defendant who is making a self-defense claim:

The presumption that the defendant had a reasonable fear that deadly force was necessary; and

The presumption that the intruder intended to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

These two presumptions protect the defender from both civil and criminal prosecution for unlawful use of deadly or non-deadly force in self-defense. In addition, the defender/gun owner has no duty to retreat, regardless of where he is attacked, so long as he is in a place where he is lawfully entitled to be when the danger occurs.

Tampa, Florida Weapons Defense Lawyer :: Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law and Self-Defense :: Pasco County, Florida Criminal Attorney

“…so long as he is in a place where he is lawfully entitled to be when the danger occurs.”

Which could be construed as applying to self-defense in one’s neighborhood, particullary a so called ‘gated community.’

This is likely why Zimmerman hasn’t been charged.

From the sound of it, the kid's family was well advised to pursue the civil route. It sounds just muddled enough to make it difficult to prosecute for the state.

The law also prohibits wrongful death civil suits by the family of a person killed in such circumstances.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

CRUEL & UNUSUAL punishment..................................also, Florida law allows deadly force if an individual reasonably believes such force will/can be used against the individual. (ROUGH TRANSLATION.) Lots more justifiable homicide defenses since self defense is subjective.

all the more reason to get the hell out of Florida.

but seriously, I believe there are a lot more justifiable homicides than the law allows. criminals get away with shit using technicalities in law.

I'm only a few miles from the Georgia line*. Yes, laws & sympathetic juries are a part of the system.


* My mother used to say : "This isn't Alabama" . Pretty darn close to it though in much of north Florida.

The crime stats down there don't look so good. The types of crime.

 

[Peach]

all the more reason to get the hell out of Florida.

but seriously, I believe there are a lot more justifiable homicides than the law allows. criminals get away with shit using technicalities in law.

I'm only a few miles from the Georgia line*. Yes, laws & sympathetic juries are a part of the system.


* My mother used to say : "This isn't Alabama" . Pretty darn close to it though in much of north Florida.

The crime stats down there don't look so good. The types of crime.

Meth labs, too many with guns, and lots of out of state visitors are just part of "The Florida Sunshine Tree".

 

[Peach]

In Florida:

The “Stand Your Ground” Law introduced two (2) conclusive presumptions that favor a criminal defendant who is making a self-defense claim:

The presumption that the defendant had a reasonable fear that deadly force was necessary; and

The presumption that the intruder intended to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

These two presumptions protect the defender from both civil and criminal prosecution for unlawful use of deadly or non-deadly force in self-defense. In addition, the defender/gun owner has no duty to retreat, regardless of where he is attacked, so long as he is in a place where he is lawfully entitled to be when the danger occurs.

Tampa, Florida Weapons Defense Lawyer :: Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law and Self-Defense :: Pasco County, Florida Criminal Attorney

“…so long as he is in a place where he is lawfully entitled to be when the danger occurs.”

Which could be construed as applying to self-defense in one’s neighborhood, particullary a so called ‘gated community.’

This is likely why Zimmerman hasn’t been charged.

From the sound of it, the kid's family was well advised to pursue the civil route. It sounds just muddled enough to make it difficult to prosecute for the state.

The law also prohibits wrongful death civil suits by the family of a person killed in such circumstances.

The facts are yet to be determined; that may explain why there was no "quick arrest".

 

[bayoubill]

what I can easily imagine what actually happened:

black kid, returning from convenience store to his father's house, attracts the attention of an overzealous loser who's taken it upon himself to patrol the neighborhood...

even though his father lives there, the black kid is unfamiliar to the loser because he's not a resident...

black kid has his hoodie pulled up (because of light rainfall)...

black kid has stuff in his hands (because he just came back from the convenience store)...

because of black kid's appearance, loser assumes black kid is up to no good and decides to challenge him (which will mebbe make him a hero and gain him respect that he's never had)...

black kid, walking in the rain, is annoyed at being challenged and becomes belligerent, particularly since he assumes the whole thing is because he's black...

the loser becomes frightened at the black kid's belligerence, particularly since he thinks the black kid has some sort of weapon in his hands...

there is a tussle, during which the loser pulls out his gun and shoots the black kid...

tragic outcome...

question remains: what to do with the loser...? can't see murder charges in this situation... but because of the loser's faulty decisions, it would seem that manslaughter charges are warranted...

 

[Ravi]

Doesn't make much sense that he'd be on the phone with the police for so long then commit murder.

Think it would depend where he got shot at, if it was on his own property then there is nothing to it. If he chased him down and shot him in the back, that would be suspicious.

Of course the media doesn't bother reporting where it actually took place, and they make Zimmerman out to be a racist, even though he is hispanic.

A Hispanic can't be racist?

Regarding where the shooting took place, several of the 911 callers describe that this happened behind their homes, and then this from the link posted above:

Martin had been staying at his father's girlfriend's house during the night of the NBA all-star game Feb. 26.



On his way back into the gated suburban Orlando community after stepping out, Martin, wearing a hood, was spotted by Zimmerman.



Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.



A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.
But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

He was guilty of walking while black, apparently.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

what I can easily imagine what actually happened:

black kid, returning from convenience store to his father's house, attracts the attention of an overzealous loser who's taken it upon himself to patrol the neighborhood...

even though his father lives there, the black kid is unfamiliar to the loser because he's not a resident...

black kid has his hoodie pulled up (because of light rainfall)...

black kid has stuff in his hands (because he just came back from the convenience store)...

because of black kid's appearance, loser assumes black kid is up to no good and decides to challenge him (which will mebbe make him a hero and gain him respect that he's never had)...

black kid, walking in the rain, is annoyed at being challenged and becomes belligerent, particularly since he assumes the whole thing is because he's black...

the loser becomes frightened at being challenged, particularly since he thinks the black kid has some sort of weapon in his hands...

there is a tussle, during which the loser pulls out his gun and shoots the black kid...

tragic outcome...

question remains: what to do with the loser...? can't see murder charges in this situation... but because of the loser's faulty decisions, manslaughter charges are warranted...

George Zimmerman's father on Trayvon Martin: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

except your imagination sucks.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

He was guilty of walking while black, apparently.

come on Ravi sounds like you like false media reports.

George Zimmerman's father on Trayvon Martin: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

 

[bayoubill]

what I can easily imagine what actually happened:

black kid, returning from convenience store to his father's house, attracts the attention of an overzealous loser who's taken it upon himself to patrol the neighborhood...

even though his father lives there, the black kid is unfamiliar to the loser because he's not a resident...

black kid has his hoodie pulled up (because of light rainfall)...

black kid has stuff in his hands (because he just came back from the convenience store)...

because of black kid's appearance, loser assumes black kid is up to no good and decides to challenge him (which will mebbe make him a hero and gain him respect that he's never had)...

black kid, walking in the rain, is annoyed at being challenged and becomes belligerent, particularly since he assumes the whole thing is because he's black...

the loser becomes frightened at being challenged, particularly since he thinks the black kid has some sort of weapon in his hands...

there is a tussle, during which the loser pulls out his gun and shoots the black kid...

tragic outcome...

question remains: what to do with the loser...? can't see murder charges in this situation... but because of the loser's faulty decisions, manslaughter charges are warranted...

George Zimmerman's father on Trayvon Martin: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

except your imagination sucks.

how so...? be specific...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

what I can easily imagine what actually happened:

black kid, returning from convenience store to his father's house, attracts the attention of an overzealous loser who's taken it upon himself to patrol the neighborhood...

even though his father lives there, the black kid is unfamiliar to the loser because he's not a resident...

black kid has his hoodie pulled up (because of light rainfall)...

black kid has stuff in his hands (because he just came back from the convenience store)...

because of black kid's appearance, loser assumes black kid is up to no good and decides to challenge him (which will mebbe make him a hero and gain him respect that he's never had)...

black kid, walking in the rain, is annoyed at being challenged and becomes belligerent, particularly since he assumes the whole thing is because he's black...

the loser becomes frightened at being challenged, particularly since he thinks the black kid has some sort of weapon in his hands...

there is a tussle, during which the loser pulls out his gun and shoots the black kid...

tragic outcome...

question remains: what to do with the loser...? can't see murder charges in this situation... but because of the loser's faulty decisions, manslaughter charges are warranted...

George Zimmerman's father on Trayvon Martin: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

except your imagination sucks.

how so...? be specific...

Hispanic man who patrols his multicultural neighborhood is not a loser.

Hispanic man was seen on ground after shooting.

Hispanic man has a history of calling police.

Maybe black teen had issues.

 

[Ravi]

He was guilty of walking while black, apparently.

come on Ravi sounds like you like false media reports.

George Zimmerman's father on Trayvon Martin: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

He had no reason to follow the kid. The kid wasn't doing anything wrong.

Vigilantes are not good for society.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Why do most progressives feel the need to side against self defense with weapons?

 

[bayoubill]

George Zimmerman's father on Trayvon Martin: My son is not racist, did not confront Trayvon Martin - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

except your imagination sucks.

how so...? be specific...

Hispanic man who patrols his multicultural neighborhood is not a loser.

Hispanic man was seen on ground after shooting.

Hispanic man has a history of calling police.

Maybe black teen had issues.

'k... granted, I prolly shouldn'ta called the guy a loser (even if he was)...

otherwise, do you have a problem with the way I described things...?

 

[The Gadfly]

My, my, look at all the would-be "prosecutors" all over this thread assuming facts not in evidence. Here's what we actually know. Zimmerman, a "neighborhood watch volunteer with a CWP, saw Martin, and thought he "looked suspicious" .Zimmerman called 911 gave a description of the subject, who he then followed. At some point Zimmerman dismounted the vehicle. At some point, according to at least one witness a physical altercation of some sort occurred between Zimmerman and Martin. There is another 911 call, during which, one or the other is heard yelling, followed by the sound of a single gunshot.

Now, here's what we DON'T know. We don't know that Zimmerman was "stalking" Martin-following a person one believes is acting suspiciously, and reporting his activities and location to police is neither "stalking" nor is it a crime. We do not know precisely what led to the physical altercation that occurred, nor do we know which of the two initiated that altercation. We don't know what words were exchanged between the two. Was there any warning or threat of deadly force; if so, by which party? We don't know. Were there kicks or punches, and who delivered those-Martin, Zimmerman, or both? We don't know. What other witness or physical evidence might the police have, that would indicate Zimmerman could have or even likely did, fire in self-defense? Again, we don't know. It is not that unusual for police to not arrest a subject in a claimed self-defense shooting, PROVIDED that most of whatever evidence they have suggests that subject did act in self-defense, according to the law applicable in that jurisdiction. The Local police have NOT released their evidence, which is presumably in possession of the State Attorney's office for further investigation; apparently, there's enough that it will take WEEKS to carefully investigate ALL of it.

Note again that the FL law differs from the common law self-defense statutes still in wide use in that it specifically DOES NOT include a "duty to retreat", even if it is reasonably possible to do so.Also note that while "reasonable fear of death" is ONE component of self-defense statutes, it is not the ONLY one; "reasonable fear of serious bodily injury" is also acceptable in most jurisdictions, including FL. Not also that the picture of Zimmerman shown here and elsewhere is an old mug shot from a misdemeanor arrest years ago, NOT a current picture.

I would suggest, that we, the media, and the local community allow the investigation to take its course, and determine IF any charges, and/or any arrest pending charges, are warranted, before presuming otherwise. I would also suggest, that we, the media, and the local community, refrain from attempting to try the case on this board, in the press, or in the streets. Any trial that is needed should and must take place in a court of law, with a due regard for facts, and rules of criminal procedure, NOT in the court of public opinion. Remember the Duke lacrosse case? I seem to recall that "everyone" was "certain" the accused in that instance were guilty-only it turned out, they actually weren't. We have a judicial process for a reason, people, and while it sometimes does not move fast enough to suit some of us, or conclude what we would wish it to conclude, it usually gets it right, in the end (which is more than I can say for the track record of the sort of lynch mob mentality some of you have displayed here).

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

He had no reason to follow the kid. The kid wasn't doing anything wrong.

Vigilantes are not good for society.

I've always watched strangers near my house. I've always looked out for neighbor's property. Nothing wrong with following a person who doesn't fit in or looks like they are new to neighborhood.

I would ask if they are lost and need help. When they get tense or smart, I know they are douchebaghs.

 

[Ravi]

Why do most progressives feel the need to side against self defense with weapons?

I don't know, since you're the progressive.

The kid didn't have a weapon.

This isn't really much different than that dumb blond wearing twinkly lights to the airport in bean town. Except someone ended up dead.

 

[koshergrl]

I don't know why people waste their time second guessing these incidents before anyone even has a clue about what happened.

 

[bayoubill]

Why do most progressives feel the need to side against self defense with weapons?

'cause they've yet to come up against a situation where they wished they had a gun to defend themselves...


or, if they've got piles of money, they surround themselves with bodyguards who carry guns...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The facts are yet to be determined; that may explain why there was no "quick arrest".

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

F.S. §776.013(3)

As you can see the law was very carefully crafted to allow an expansive interpretation. The facts would need to place Zimmerman outside of the context of the law, including his ‘reasonable belief’ that deadly force was necessary.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

how so...? be specific...

Hispanic man who patrols his multicultural neighborhood is not a loser.

Hispanic man was seen on ground after shooting.

Hispanic man has a history of calling police.

Maybe black teen had issues.

'k... granted, I prolly shouldn'ta called the guy a loser (even if he was)...

otherwise, do you have a problem with the way I described things...?

only that some of your assumptions are too stereotypical .. man assumes black kid has a weapon? why?

most street confrontations and fights start out without people misreading each other, but many start because some people think they can do whatever they want.

there is no reason to believe the Hispanic guy wanted to challenge the young guy in a physical confrontation. Odds on favorite is black kid got physical first. Why? who knows.