What is a conservative?

[SniperFire]

I see the world of politics along a spectrum of centralized vs. decentralized control going from Left to Right.

Yours is a rather childish, academic view of the world which only exists in your mind.

 

[blackhawk]

I could ask the what is a liberal but that is another thread for another day. To me a conservative is someone who believes in self reliance and taking care of themselves and not expecting other's namely the government to do it for them. To be clear that does not mean we should be unwilling to help people who are down get back on their feet there needs to be programs in place to do this but they should be designed to help people get back to a place where they can support themselves instead of the government supporting them with no end in sight finally this applies to people who are healthy enough both physically and mentally to do so I know there are those who are not.

 

[The T]

A conservative is one who conserves.

Conserves...what?

In this case? LIBERTY of the individual as ordained by GOD, and Codified by the Founding Fathers.

And there's no need to go farther.

ALWAYS side for Liberty, The Republic, and LAW.

YOU can Never..go wrong.

Wrong. You just defined a selective conservative.

Wrong *I* am an Accolyte of the Founding since my Great-great-Great Grandfather was part of it and served under General Washington. And all Males in my family since the founding have participated IN the protection OF Liberty eusa_shhh since it's founding...

You're dismissed.

*So Ordered*

 

[dblack]

I see the world of politics along a spectrum of centralized vs. decentralized control going from Left to Right. At the far Left is totally centrally controlled (dictatorship), and at the far Right is anarchy (no government). As a conservative I am to the right but not all the way to the right (anarchy).

Today in the USA the spectrum is much more narrow than say the two extremes mentioned above, but it does lie somewhere between. I believe that what we call the center today has actually moved further to the left over the past 100 years, and with it the right moved further to the left. For this reason I believe that many conservatives in the larger perspective of things are not very conservative at all. They are right of the left of course, but they aren't exactly conservative either. I don't speak for all "conservatives" though, there are many who agree that the right has fallen into Nolan chartthe big government trap as well.

But that essentially discounts authoritarian conservatism, which tends to be quite enthusiastic in using government to tell people how to live. I actually see the authoritarian/libertarian divide along a different axis (see: the Nolan chart). You'll find both liberals and conservatives who favor decentralized, limited government. You'll also find liberals and conservatives who favor big, centralized government. It's just a different concern.

 

[The T]

I see the world of politics along a spectrum of centralized vs. decentralized control going from Left to Right. At the far Left is totally centrally controlled (dictatorship), and at the far Right is anarchy (no government). As a conservative I am to the right but not all the way to the right (anarchy).

Today in the USA the spectrum is much more narrow than say the two extremes mentioned above, but it does lie somewhere between. I believe that what we call the center today has actually moved further to the left over the past 100 years, and with it the right moved further to the left. For this reason I believe that many conservatives in the larger perspective of things are not very conservative at all. They are right of the left of course, but they aren't exactly conservative either. I don't speak for all "conservatives" though, there are many who agree that the right has fallen into Nolan chartthe big government trap as well.

But that essentially discounts authoritarian conservatism, which tends to be quite enthusiastic in using government to tell people how to live. I actually see the authoritarian/libertarian divide along a different axis (see: the Nolan chart). You'll find both liberals and conservatives who favor decentralized, limited government. You'll also find liberals and conservatives who favor big, centralized government. It's just a different concern.

TELL US WHO THOSE CONSERVATIVES are?

 

[ThinkCritically]

I see the world of politics along a spectrum of centralized vs. decentralized control going from Left to Right. At the far Left is totally centrally controlled (dictatorship), and at the far Right is anarchy (no government). As a conservative I am to the right but not all the way to the right (anarchy).

Today in the USA the spectrum is much more narrow than say the two extremes mentioned above, but it does lie somewhere between. I believe that what we call the center today has actually moved further to the left over the past 100 years, and with it the right moved further to the left. For this reason I believe that many conservatives in the larger perspective of things are not very conservative at all. They are right of the left of course, but they aren't exactly conservative either. I don't speak for all "conservatives" though, there are many who agree that the right has fallen into Nolan chartthe big government trap as well.

But that essentially discounts authoritarian conservatism, which tends to be quite enthusiastic in using government to tell people how to live. I actually see the authoritarian/libertarian divide along a different axis (see: the Nolan chart). You'll find both liberals and conservatives who favor decentralized, limited government. You'll also find liberals and conservatives who favor big, centralized government. It's just a different concern.

Ahhh. This cuts to the heart of my point. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore I am in favor of limiting the Federal Governments power as much as possible. At the state level the potential for absolute power is less so I am less concerned and so forth until we reach the county, city, and block ordinance level.

Interestingly enough as the scope of government decreases I find myself becoming less identified with political ideas, and more interested in effective governing regardless of which political stripe it is.

But the larger the scope of governmental level gets the more conservative (less government power) I get. It all hinges upon the idea of "absolute power corrupting absolutely". If there was such a thing as a benevolent dictator then I would feel the opposite way, but there is only corruptible man.

 

[The T]

I see the world of politics along a spectrum of centralized vs. decentralized control going from Left to Right. At the far Left is totally centrally controlled (dictatorship), and at the far Right is anarchy (no government). As a conservative I am to the right but not all the way to the right (anarchy).

Today in the USA the spectrum is much more narrow than say the two extremes mentioned above, but it does lie somewhere between. I believe that what we call the center today has actually moved further to the left over the past 100 years, and with it the right moved further to the left. For this reason I believe that many conservatives in the larger perspective of things are not very conservative at all. They are right of the left of course, but they aren't exactly conservative either. I don't speak for all "conservatives" though, there are many who agree that the right has fallen into Nolan chartthe big government trap as well.

But that essentially discounts authoritarian conservatism, which tends to be quite enthusiastic in using government to tell people how to live. I actually see the authoritarian/libertarian divide along a different axis (see: the Nolan chart). You'll find both liberals and conservatives who favor decentralized, limited government. You'll also find liberals and conservatives who favor big, centralized government. It's just a different concern.

Ahhh. This cuts to the heart of my point. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore I am in favor of limiting the Federal Governments power as much as possible. At the state level the potential for absolute power is less so I am less concerned and so forth until we reach the county, city, and block ordinance level.

Interestingly enough as the scope of government decreases I find myself becoming less identified with political ideas, and more interested in effective governing regardless of which political stripe it is.

But the larger the scope of governmental level gets the more conservative (less government power) I get. It all hinges upon the idea of "absolute power corrupting absolutely". If there was such a thing as a benevolent dictator then I would feel the opposite way, but there is only corruptible man.

Corruptable MEN with a record...NO record?

Ron Paul...has a Record of taking money for his district...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvCQ8XgfMvM]Hubba Hubba Hubba who do you trust (2) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[dblack]

Corruptable MEN with a record...NO record?

Ron Paul...has a Record of taking money for his district...

This thread isn't a Paul thread.

 

[g5000]

I can't think of any conservatives in government today. I can think of a lot of UnConservatives, though.

An UnConservative says entitlement programs need to either be eliminated or greatly reduced, but then scares the bejeesus out of the over 50 crowd by telling them Obama is cutting Medicare.

An UnConservative says entitlement programs need to either be eliminated or greately reduced, but then votes in a massive Medicare Part D, with no way to pay for it built into the legislation. The same UnConservative will block legislation by Democrats that does not pay for itself.

An UnConservative will cheer the Supreme Court's wisdom and defense of the Constitution when the Court strikes down an unconstitional state law against guns, but will bitch about the same Supreme Court when it strikes down another unconsitutional state law, stomping his feet about "state's rights" and the 10th Amendment and moaning about "activist judges".

An UnConservative will pay lip service about how precious the Constitution is, but will not entertain any thought of providing equal protection under the law to gays.

An UnConservative will pay lip service about how precious the Constitution is but will defend our government spying on us without a warrant.

An UnConservative will perform amazing mental twists to convince themselves that waterboarding is not torture. This, more than any other behavior, sickened me toward the GOP. This kind of belief system requires a full-on deliberate effort to self-delude. This is a conscious decision to keep lying to oneself until one believes the lie.

An UnConservative will pay lip service about how precious the Constitution is but will defend a leader who has the right party membership stepping all over that document. But as soon as a leader who has the wrong party membership does the same thing, he is a devil.

An UnConservative will ignore evidence of Voter ID disenfranchising voters, believing we need to put another impediment to the excercising of our Constitutional rights that is completely unnecessary, and be unable to name any case of voter fraud in our nation's entire existence that could only have been prevented or caught by anything other than Voter ID.

An UnConservative will do NOTHING to dissuade birthers and other such wackadoos because there is no percentage in educating the ignorant if they are going to vote GOP. Thus, the UnConservative demonstrates that power is more important than principles or honesty or truth.


The hypocrisy, stupidty, willful ignorance, and sheer chickenhawk bloodlust of the UnConservatives who have taken over the GOP has sickened me to the point where I just could not vote any more. And since I stopped voting, my hopes that the party will ever come to its senses have become less and less. I now doubt I will ever feel compelled to vote again.

The UnConservatives deserve Obama as our President. By running off people like me, the UnConservatives elected him, and will probably re-elect him.

 

[ThinkCritically]

But that essentially discounts authoritarian conservatism, which tends to be quite enthusiastic in using government to tell people how to live. I actually see the authoritarian/libertarian divide along a different axis (see: the Nolan chart). You'll find both liberals and conservatives who favor decentralized, limited government. You'll also find liberals and conservatives who favor big, centralized government. It's just a different concern.

This "nolan chart" hits the nail on the head.

The left-wing favors personal liberty, but not economic liberty
The right-wing favors economic liberty, but not personal freedom

While,

Libertarianism favors personal and economic freedom
Populism or dictatorship favors neither personal or economic freedom.

So what is a conservative?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I'm confused as to what conservative is? Its seems to me that it is almost like a Rorschach test. If you are a "conservative" let me know what makes a politician conservative. If you are not a "conservative" feel free to chime in, but keep the hate to a minimum please.

The issue isn’t so much what is a conservative, but when.

During much of the 20th Century, until the early 70s, conservatives were reasonable, rational people. Conservatives then didn’t believe in the ‘small government’ nonsense they do today, they believed in comprehensive limited government, both with regard to regulation and individual liberty.

These conservatives were also more pragmatic, were less subject to irrational blind dogma, and were more interested in doing what was best for the Nation, rather than pursue a subjective partisan agenda.

That all changed by the late 70s with the advent of political religious fundamentalism and social conservatism.

There also manifested in conservatism at that time some bizarre mutant form of libertarianism, a virulent, radical contrivance of that dogma which no longer wanted limited government but wished to destroy government altogether. Conservatives became detached from reality, enveloped in a reactionary fantasy about an American past that never existed in the first place.

As facts were sacrificed to dogma, and the truth fell victim to lies and contrivances, conservatives cared less about responsible governance and became more concerned about appeasing the radical right that became their political base.

This hybrid of political conservatism and religious fundamentalism resulted in the authoritarianism conservatives exhibit today: everyone is compelled to conform, dissent and diversity are attacked and ridiculed. Political heretics are shunned as ‘RINOs.’

As a consequence of this authoritarianism conservatives pose a threat to individual liberty and each citizens’ fundamental rights. Conservatives’ rejection of the Constitution and its case law with regard to the right to privacy concerning abortion, the right to equal access to the law concerning same-sex couples and marriage, and the right to due process with regard to immigration issues are but a few examples of the disdain conservatives harbor for the founding principles of the Republic.

To their credit there are a minority of conservatives who have realized this danger and aberration and have been brave enough to speak out against those who have perverted a once valued political philosophy. Unfortunately, they seem too few in numbers to have any significant impact, at least in the short-term.

The challenge for Americans dedicated to individual liberty, therefore, is to safeguard those cherished freedoms codified by our Founding Document against the radical right until such time as conservatives return to their senses, or depart the political scene otherwise.

At the state level the potential for absolute power is less so I am less concerned and so forth until we reach the county, city, and block ordinance level.

This is incorrect, during much of the 20th Century it has been state and local governments who have violated the civil liberties of Americans. From Kansas, South Carolina, Virginia, and Delaware with regard to segregation in the 50s (Brown v. Board of Education (1954)) to Texas’ violation of homosexuals’ 14th Amendment rights during this century (Lawrence v. Texas (2003)).

The hypocrisy of the right has always been its concern for ‘tyranny’ on the Federal level yet no concern at all for the same tyranny exhibited by state and local jurisdictions.

 

[code1211]

I see the world of politics along a spectrum of centralized vs. decentralized control going from Left to Right.

Yours is a rather childish, academic view of the world which only exists in your mind.

That is, however, one of the central components.

 

[code1211]

I could ask the what is a liberal but that is another thread for another day. To me a conservative is someone who believes in self reliance and taking care of themselves and not expecting other's namely the government to do it for them. To be clear that does not mean we should be unwilling to help people who are down get back on their feet there needs to be programs in place to do this but they should be designed to help people get back to a place where they can support themselves instead of the government supporting them with no end in sight finally this applies to people who are healthy enough both physically and mentally to do so I know there are those who are not.

Something I find particularly annoying is a college graduate with a worthless degree living in his parents' basement because he's above working at a job outside his field.

Outside his field?

If he's never held a job, he has no field. His field is smoking dope with his buddies in the Frat House and scheduling a Toga Party.

Outside his field. Sheesh!

 

[code1211]

I see the world of politics along a spectrum of centralized vs. decentralized control going from Left to Right. At the far Left is totally centrally controlled (dictatorship), and at the far Right is anarchy (no government). As a conservative I am to the right but not all the way to the right (anarchy).

Today in the USA the spectrum is much more narrow than say the two extremes mentioned above, but it does lie somewhere between. I believe that what we call the center today has actually moved further to the left over the past 100 years, and with it the right moved further to the left. For this reason I believe that many conservatives in the larger perspective of things are not very conservative at all. They are right of the left of course, but they aren't exactly conservative either. I don't speak for all "conservatives" though, there are many who agree that the right has fallen into Nolan chartthe big government trap as well.

But that essentially discounts authoritarian conservatism, which tends to be quite enthusiastic in using government to tell people how to live. I actually see the authoritarian/libertarian divide along a different axis (see: the Nolan chart). You'll find both liberals and conservatives who favor decentralized, limited government. You'll also find liberals and conservatives who favor big, centralized government. It's just a different concern.

If a person favors the intrusion of government into the life of an individual for purpose of control, that person is by definition, not Conservative.

If a person favors centralized government, he is by definition, not a Conservative.

A person is defined not by his statements of what he is but by what he does.

 

[ThinkCritically]

Conservative is relative. This is why I don't like the term...politically speaking that is. What is conservative today was not conservative in the past and will surely be different in the future.

 

[SniperFire]

, he is by definition, not a Conservative.

Don't be an ass. There are many ways to define what a 'conservative' is.

Even Wikipedia describes about 10 different types of 'conservatives.':

Conservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dblack]

, he is by definition, not a Conservative.

Don't be an ass. There are many ways to define what a 'conservative' is.

Even Wikipedia describes about 10 different types of 'conservatives.':

Conservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow... I'm agreeing with snipper?

Code1211, while I'd like to assume that everyone who called themselves 'conservative' were the limited government libertarians you describe, there are plenty who aren't. Many who fly the 'conservative' banner are very enthusiastic about using government to force their will on others. There are just as many authoritarian conservatives as there are authoritarian liberals. They just have a different agenda.

I'm assuming that was the point of this thread. A challenge to those who call themselves conservatives to lay it on the table - what sort of conservative are you? The big government authoritarian conservative that Sniper would endorse, or the kind of conservative who believes in the liberty ensconced in our Constitution?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm confused as to what conservative is? Its seems to me that it is almost like a Rorschach test. If you are a "conservative" let me know what makes a politician conservative. If you are not a "conservative" feel free to chime in, but keep the hate to a minimum please.

Frack if I know what a conservative is, but I can certainly tell you what a conservative isn't.

A conservative is not a person that thinks the government is the best answer to anything. There are times when the government is the only answer to a problem, but it is never the best answer.

A conservative is not a person that thinks the government should spend more money than it takes in. Again, there are times when this has to happen, but it should not be how the government operates.

A conservative is not a person that cares what adults do to each other as long as long as what they do is consensual.

A conservative is not a person who believes the state should make decisions for others.

A conservative is not a person who thinks that numbers trump an individual. James Mason said it best in Heaven can Wait, "The likelihood of an individual being right increases in direct proportion to the intensity with which others are trying to prove him wrong."

 

[Quantum Windbag]

.

Wait, let me add one:

Invade, destroy and occupy countries that annoy you (as long as they can't fight back). This is our planet and everyone must do things our way. Fill American body bags, destroy American military lives and families, waste trillions. Then tell us how you support the troops.

No charge for that one.

.

That does explain Libya, doesn't it.

By the way, thanks for caring enough about the question to provide a well reasoned and thoughtful answer.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm confused as to what conservative is? Its seems to me that it is almost like a Rorschach test. If you are a "conservative" let me know what makes a politician conservative. If you are not a "conservative" feel free to chime in, but keep the hate to a minimum please.

The issue isn’t so much what is a conservative, but when.

During much of the 20th Century, until the early 70s, conservatives were reasonable, rational people. Conservatives then didn’t believe in the ‘small government’ nonsense they do today, they believed in comprehensive limited government, both with regard to regulation and individual liberty.

These conservatives were also more pragmatic, were less subject to irrational blind dogma, and were more interested in doing what was best for the Nation, rather than pursue a subjective partisan agenda.

That all changed by the late 70s with the advent of political religious fundamentalism and social conservatism.

T.

Barry Goldwater wasn't a conservative?
And I didnt know there was a right to sodomy. Learn something new every day.