What do you want from government?

[Skull Pilot]

I never said I didn't bother to add up all the taxes I pay because I do--every year when I do my taxes. All my receipts get filed in preparation, and they are all added up at tax time, and they DO NOT add up to 50% (including income tax), ever.

really? so every time you fill up your gas tank, you figure out the state and federal tax and claim it on your 1040?

I use the proper schedule in the 1040 instructions. It's easily calculated, however, because you can easily find out exactly how much of the cost in a gallon of gas is tax.

Your "list" above, however, assumes that everyone makes use of all those services. We don't.

I am really supposed to believe that you claim every tax you pay on your 1040?

I call bull shit.

J.K. Lasser's Your Income Tax 2010 ... - Google Books

I can't copy and paste the text but here are a few lines.

Sales taxes on personal property are generally not deductible. However you can elect to deduct general state and local taxes in lieu of state and local income taxes....

On your 2009 you can elect to deduct either state and local income taxes or state and local general sales taxes but you cannot deduct both.

So unless you spend more than you make, it makes no sense to elect to deduct sales taxes instead of state and local income taxes.

State and local taxes on gasoline used for personal purposes are not deductible

So you really claim gas taxes? then every mile you drive must be for business huh? do you try to claim the alcohol tax on a six pack or bottle of wine too?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I want government to:

Let Me have My life.

Protect My liberty.

And to pursue My happiness.

There is a hell of a lot more. But as one poster said, what is good for one is bad for another.

The answer to that is less. Less government.

Our Federal Government exists to represent We the People to the rest of the world. End of responsibility.

Our state governments exist to give our society structure. This is where 99% of all governance should be done.

Our municipalities and counties exist to meet the immediate needs of our citizens. Streets, schools and places to do business.

Return to this model and America will once again achieve the greatness that is her destiny.

Good post

 

[Contumacious]

what IS the appropriate role of government.

 

[MaggieMae]

Actually- the conservative idea is toencourage prosperity by allowing people to keep what they earn, which is better than the liberal idea of encouraging mediocrity and sloth by punishing the successful to provide for the wants of the less successful.

Then why haven't they practiced their own ideology? Why from 1999 through 2006 did wages either remain stagnant or decline? Benefits either reduced or stripped entirely? People laid off and replaced by two part-timers so that benefits and overtime didn't need to be paid? The wealthy CEOs used their windfall from tax cuts and pocketed it or invested overseas, not in their own employees. And yes, said CEOs are mostly Republicans because the GOP has historically been the party of corporate elitists, catering to their needs first.

christ your a FUCKING WHINER.....

I would expect most CEO's, and most successful, or even mature, people to be conservatives. We know you cant get somethin for nothin, that the station one occupies in life is a choice, and that freedom is far more important than equality.

For a newbie, you're the biggest whiner I've come across in just a month. And oh yeah, you didn't even respond to what I said. Just whined.

 

[MaggieMae]

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.


Thomas Jefferson

Yeah what he said

Jefferson also said:

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destrction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government." (March 31, 1809)

 

[MaggieMae]

I want government to:

Let Me have My life.

Protect My liberty.

And to pursue My happiness.

There is a hell of a lot more. But as one poster said, what is good for one is bad for another.

The answer to that is less. Less government.

Our Federal Government exists to represent We the People to the rest of the world. End of responsibility.

Our state governments exist to give our society structure. This is where 99% of all governance should be done.

Our municipalities and counties exist to meet the immediate needs of our citizens. Streets, schools and places to do business.

Return to this model and America will once again achieve the greatness that is her destiny.

If you want the states and municipalities to have more governing power, then you have to stop complaining about their taxes, too. I can't tell you the number of years a bond initiative has been on the ballot to replace, piece by piece, our 100-year old sewer system in town, but it gets voted down every time. We even have residents who go out and petition against paving dirt roads because of the cost, yet they're the same one who scream to high heaven when the snow plows don't make those roads a priority. They choose to live in the remote areas, but want all the amenities available in the more populated areas at no additional cost. People want all the benefits of the good life but they think it should just happen by some miracle.

 

[MaggieMae]

really? so every time you fill up your gas tank, you figure out the state and federal tax and claim it on your 1040?

I use the proper schedule in the 1040 instructions. It's easily calculated, however, because you can easily find out exactly how much of the cost in a gallon of gas is tax.

Your "list" above, however, assumes that everyone makes use of all those services. We don't.

I am really supposed to believe that you claim every tax you pay on your 1040?

I call bull shit.

J.K. Lasser's Your Income Tax 2010 ... - Google Books

I can't copy and paste the text but here are a few lines.

Sales taxes on personal property are generally not deductible. However you can elect to deduct general state and local taxes in lieu of state and local income taxes....

On your 2009 you can elect to deduct either state and local income taxes or state and local general sales taxes but you cannot deduct both.

So unless you spend more than you make, it makes no sense to elect to deduct sales taxes instead of state and local income taxes.

State and local taxes on gasoline used for personal purposes are not deductible

So you really claim gas taxes? then every mile you drive must be for business huh? do you try to claim the alcohol tax on a six pack or bottle of wine too?

Tax Topics - Topic 503 Deductible Taxes

Generally, sales taxes are not deductible on Schedule A. However, for Tax Years 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 if you file a Form 1040 and itemize deductions on Schedule A, you have the option of claiming either state and local income taxes or state and local sales taxes (you can't claim both). If you saved your receipts throughout the year, you can add up the total amount of sales taxes you actually paid and claim that amount. If you didn't save all your receipts, you can choose to claim a standard amount for state and local sales taxes. Its easy if you use the Sales Tax Deduction Calculator on IRS.gov for either year (refer to Publication 600 and Form 1040 Instructions).

I don't give a shit WHAT you say, taxes all combined (unless you're an absolute fool) should never equal 50% of your earnings. But I'm not going to get into a further pissing match with you over which taxes I pay. So run along.

 

[Darkwind]

I want government to:

Let Me have My life.

Protect My liberty.

And to pursue My happiness.

There is a hell of a lot more. But as one poster said, what is good for one is bad for another.

The answer to that is less. Less government.

Our Federal Government exists to represent We the People to the rest of the world. End of responsibility.

Our state governments exist to give our society structure. This is where 99% of all governance should be done.

Our municipalities and counties exist to meet the immediate needs of our citizens. Streets, schools and places to do business.

Return to this model and America will once again achieve the greatness that is her destiny.

If you want the states and municipalities to have more governing power, then you have to stop complaining about their taxes, too. I can't tell you the number of years a bond initiative has been on the ballot to replace, piece by piece, our 100-year old sewer system in town, but it gets voted down every time. We even have residents who go out and petition against paving dirt roads because of the cost, yet they're the same one who scream to high heaven when the snow plows don't make those roads a priority. They choose to live in the remote areas, but want all the amenities available in the more populated areas at no additional cost. People want all the benefits of the good life but they think it should just happen by some miracle.

Has it never occurred to you that if they did not have to pay the crushing federal taxes, that they would not be so opposed to a local bond tax for roads and other local projects?

If each state were to keep just 85% of all the blood money that leaves and goes to the Feds, there would not be much need for these kinds of votes.

And if your state is so poor that they still can't afford these things, then perhaps the people of that state need to re-evaluate how their business is being conducted.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I use the proper schedule in the 1040 instructions. It's easily calculated, however, because you can easily find out exactly how much of the cost in a gallon of gas is tax.

Your "list" above, however, assumes that everyone makes use of all those services. We don't.

I am really supposed to believe that you claim every tax you pay on your 1040?

I call bull shit.

J.K. Lasser's Your Income Tax 2010 ... - Google Books

I can't copy and paste the text but here are a few lines.



So unless you spend more than you make, it makes no sense to elect to deduct sales taxes instead of state and local income taxes.

State and local taxes on gasoline used for personal purposes are not deductible

So you really claim gas taxes? then every mile you drive must be for business huh? do you try to claim the alcohol tax on a six pack or bottle of wine too?

Tax Topics - Topic 503 Deductible Taxes

Generally, sales taxes are not deductible on Schedule A. However, for Tax Years 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 if you file a Form 1040 and itemize deductions on Schedule A, you have the option of claiming either state and local income taxes or state and local sales taxes (you can't claim both). If you saved your receipts throughout the year, you can add up the total amount of sales taxes you actually paid and claim that amount. If you didn't save all your receipts, you can choose to claim a standard amount for state and local sales taxes. Its easy if you use the Sales Tax Deduction Calculator on IRS.gov for either year (refer to Publication 600 and Form 1040 Instructions).

I don't give a shit WHAT you say, taxes all combined (unless you're an absolute fool) should never equal 50% of your earnings. But I'm not going to get into a further pissing match with you over which taxes I pay. So run along.

yeah like the part about you claiming gas taxes which you can't unless all the gas you buy was for business.

You're full of shit.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-015.html

This study develops a direct and easily understood method of determining the impact of taxes on middle-income Americans' finances: calculate the amount of extra income workers must earn to pay for the goods and services they desire. In many states workers have to earn twice the retail price of most goods and services before they have the after- tax income to purchase them. In those states middle-income workers are devoting over half their income, not to the goods and services they want, but to the government tax collector.

And you are of course forgetting that even if one gets a refund from the government, that money is held by the government as an interest free loan. So don't forget to factor income lost on those monies to the total percentage.

Oh and btw, i like how you deleted the lines i quoted from my link that said you can't claim both state and local sales taxes and state and local income taxes on a 1040.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Protect peaceful people from force and fraud form within.

Protect national sovereignty from force from without.

End of list.

So you don't want any laws involving speed limits or which side of the road to drive on? Would you allow commerce and industry to be able to pollute the air, soil, water without restriction? Is there no room for the intent to promote the general welfare in such matters?

But while I think most Americans (including you) are probably in full agreement on those kinds of things, the others listed in the thread starter are a bit more complicated.

I think he's talking about the federal government, which doesn't handle traffic laws. Industry is regulated by the states as much as the federal government, and I see no reason why they can't handle the job. And the things he listed DO promote the general welfare on a federal level.

 

[MaggieMae]

I want government to:

Let Me have My life.

Protect My liberty.

And to pursue My happiness.

There is a hell of a lot more. But as one poster said, what is good for one is bad for another.

The answer to that is less. Less government.

Our Federal Government exists to represent We the People to the rest of the world. End of responsibility.

Our state governments exist to give our society structure. This is where 99% of all governance should be done.

Our municipalities and counties exist to meet the immediate needs of our citizens. Streets, schools and places to do business.

Return to this model and America will once again achieve the greatness that is her destiny.

If you want the states and municipalities to have more governing power, then you have to stop complaining about their taxes, too. I can't tell you the number of years a bond initiative has been on the ballot to replace, piece by piece, our 100-year old sewer system in town, but it gets voted down every time. We even have residents who go out and petition against paving dirt roads because of the cost, yet they're the same one who scream to high heaven when the snow plows don't make those roads a priority. They choose to live in the remote areas, but want all the amenities available in the more populated areas at no additional cost. People want all the benefits of the good life but they think it should just happen by some miracle.

Has it never occurred to you that if they did not have to pay the crushing federal taxes, that they would not be so opposed to a local bond tax for roads and other local projects?

If each state were to keep just 85% of all the blood money that leaves and goes to the Feds, there would not be much need for these kinds of votes.

And if your state is so poor that they still can't afford these things, then perhaps the people of that state need to re-evaluate how their business is being conducted.

Ironically, it isn't the locals that complain about tax increases to fix infrastructure. It's the flatlanders; the ones who come here for the pristine views and clean air where they build their starter castles (or second homes) on acres of beautiful land. Many of them, once they arrive, however, realize that they also want all the more costly amenities of urban life like sewer extensions instead of septic tanks, but then they turn around and don't want to pay for it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Add it up maggs.

it's not solely income tax as I believe you are assuming.

Add up every tax you pay and you will find that the average American pays more in taxes than they do for housing, food and clothing combined.

I don't, and never did. Where I live there is no tax on food. The property tax is probably minimally accounted for in rentals, but that is nominal. So unless you purchase big ticket items every year and own a home, at least here, there's no way in hell taxes add up to 50% or more of earnings.

You don't think the landlord builds the cost of his property taxes into the rent payment? Indirectly, the renter is paying that tax.
If you own a car, you are paying hidden taxes/fees, registration, property tax, gasoline tax, something. Maybe you use public transportation, as far as I am aware of, every public transit system is supported through a tax of some sort, usually a sales tax.

You might want to investigate a little more.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/94197-i-work-for-the-government.html

I can promise that taxes on rental properties is a lot more than "minimal" and "nominal", and I can further promise that the landlord is including every red cent of that in the rental costs.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Liberty is the concept of self ownership, ownership of one's life, property, and fruits of labor. If liberty was taken away from someone by someone or something else, they have the right to fight for their liberty. Doesn't matter where this is occurring. If your argument was valid, the framers would have included things such as Medicare from the get-go, alas they believed in personal responsibility. You are the one mischaracterizing.

I think if Madison and Jefferson were alive today they would be shocked that the HEALTH of the American people was not considered important. Some of what is written in the Constitution didn't need explaining back then, but the framers must be rolling in their graves wondering how some people could be so stupid as to NOT know what they meant.

It is absurd that the right winnuts wrap themselves in the Constitution while they deny health coverage to fellow Americans

It is absurd AND dishonest that left wingnuts wrap themselves in the Constitution while they try to suck their healthcare out of their fellow Americans.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Again.. try and understand what was meant by the term welfare in the constitution.. the welfare of the populous as a whole (I.E. the General Welfare) is not the same as welfare to the individual or for the individual at the expense of the state or the populace

But nice try and thank you for playing

The Constitutional Dictionary - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

And I didn't use the term meaning "social welfare" like food stamps, either. I knew exactly what I was saying. The term in the Constitution is vague, which is why it continues to be arguable.

No.. it is not vague.. it is quite evident.. as shown directly in the constitutional dictionary... nice try though, hon... but that dodo won't fly

The only reason there is argument is because entitlement mantra junkies want it to be....

The other reason it's not arguable is that that phrase does not appear in the Constitution as a mandate to do anything. It appears as an explanation for a mandate to collect taxes. Only someone who learned to read in today's public schools really thinks that the Framers went to all the trouble to list, very specifically and in detail, the powers of the Congress, only to then say, "Oh, and do whatever else you feel like, whenever you feel like, as long as you can say it's in the general welfare."

 

[DiamondDave]

And I didn't use the term meaning "social welfare" like food stamps, either. I knew exactly what I was saying. The term in the Constitution is vague, which is why it continues to be arguable.

No.. it is not vague.. it is quite evident.. as shown directly in the constitutional dictionary... nice try though, hon... but that dodo won't fly

The only reason there is argument is because entitlement mantra junkies want it to be....

Why don't you tell us what you *think* they meant, then? I'm very curious. If the framers didn't have in mind the welfare of the people, why would they include the phrase in the Preamble in the first place? Why would they even begin "We The People..."?? If their intent was purely security and defense, the Constitution would have resembled the Patriot Act.

Dumbo

I included the link with the explanation and the definition of what was meant by the term general welfare

Too lazy to click??

 

[MaggieMae]

No.. it is not vague.. it is quite evident.. as shown directly in the constitutional dictionary... nice try though, hon... but that dodo won't fly

The only reason there is argument is because entitlement mantra junkies want it to be....

Why don't you tell us what you *think* they meant, then? I'm very curious. If the framers didn't have in mind the welfare of the people, why would they include the phrase in the Preamble in the first place? Why would they even begin "We The People..."?? If their intent was purely security and defense, the Constitution would have resembled the Patriot Act.

Dumbo

I included the link with the explanation and the definition of what was meant by the term general welfare

Too lazy to click??

The USSC has never been able to clearly define the words in the Preamble as a legal contest, so YOUR interpretation (or some link thereto) is moot.

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Preamble

 

[Foxfyre]

Why don't you tell us what you *think* they meant, then? I'm very curious. If the framers didn't have in mind the welfare of the people, why would they include the phrase in the Preamble in the first place? Why would they even begin "We The People..."?? If their intent was purely security and defense, the Constitution would have resembled the Patriot Act.

Dumbo

I included the link with the explanation and the definition of what was meant by the term general welfare

Too lazy to click??

The USSC has never been able to clearly define the words in the Preamble as a legal contest, so YOUR interpretation (or some link thereto) is moot.

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Preamble

If the Justices on the Supreme court are unable to clearly define the words in the Preamble, then they should be impeached immediatley. The words in the Preamble set the tone and foundation for all the Constitution, and the founders wrote volumes on what they intended by the words they put into th Constitution.

As for the General Welfare, a clear understanding of THAT would fix 90% of the rest of the mess in which Congress has mired us:

“{James} Madison repeatedly argued that the powers to tax and spend did not confer upon Congress the right to do whatever it thought to be in the best interest of the nation, but only to further the ends specifically enumerated elsewhere in the Constitution, a position supported by Jefferson.” — The Heritage Guide to the Constitution, p.93

The 1828 Webster’s dictionary lists two definitions for welfare: one to be applied to persons, and one to states (political bodies). As the Constitution was written to list the government’s powers and restrictions, the definition for states must be used, which reads: Exemption from any unusual evil or calamity; the enjoyment of peace and prosperity, or the ordinary blessings of society and civil government.

“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed" - Thomas Jefferson, 1791

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798

And the more liberal Alexander Hamilton was no less committed to Congress not having authority to dispense ‘charity’: Hamilton uncategorically stated that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless:

"No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

Hamilton's intent was clear: since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore—unconstitutional.

In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

General Welfare, as intended in the Constitution, was that defined in the Declaration of Independence or to enable all citizens to be able to seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. General welfare is that which has capacity to benefit all citizens equally and without prejudice, and does not target any group or individual for special privileges or consideration which the Founders saw as explicitly prohibited by the Constitution at the Federal level.

Why? Because they saw it as immoral for powers to seize property of one citizen for the benefit of another--such was the very foundational basis upon which those original patriots structured a new Republic of the people. There is no way to dispense government charity without it becoming a corrupting influence on both those in government and the recipients of the charity. And there is no freedom if the government can take what you have and give it to whomever they please.