What do you want from government?

[MaggieMae]

i want the government to leave me the fuck alone.

Don't you mean until you need it to do something for YOU? If not, then go here:

Private Island Bahamas, Islands for Sale

no, i mean period. Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people on this planet are capable of taking care of themselves without some looming big brother to "do something" for them? Government's job in a free society is to safeguard the boarders from foreign invaders and make sure that no one impedes on anyone else's liberty. THAT IS ALL. Anyone who expects more than that out of government should be ashamed to call themselves American.

I look at this constant mischaracterization of "liberty" this way: My own "liberty" has been threatened by the invasion and occupation of Iraq by the United States, which had the effect of expanding the effectiveness of al-Qaeda a thousand-fold. Just because you need to pay taxes on certain things that benefit others and not you, personally, is about as UNAmerican as anything and is NOT the kind of attitude the framers of the Constitution had in mind. The fact that that war will cost trillions in the long run doesn't seem to affect you at all, I'm guessing. But Heaven Forbid all Americans should have a little more assurance that they can stay healthy in this the LAND OF THE FREE is worthy of massive protesting. Gotcha.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Do no harm. Protect the People but get off their backs. Our Government is now doing more harm than good in my opinion. I would actually feel much better if our Congress only met a couple of times a year and passed very few new Laws. They are in session way too much and that only leads to more corruption & oppression. I mean how many new Laws can they pass? It really has gotten out of control. We seem to be moving closer and closer to that all powerful Government Police State. When will people begin to understand what's happening? Do no harm. That's my motto.

 

[Liberty]

Don't you mean until you need it to do something for YOU? If not, then go here:

Private Island Bahamas, Islands for Sale

no, i mean period. Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people on this planet are capable of taking care of themselves without some looming big brother to "do something" for them? Government's job in a free society is to safeguard the boarders from foreign invaders and make sure that no one impedes on anyone else's liberty. THAT IS ALL. Anyone who expects more than that out of government should be ashamed to call themselves American.

I look at this constant mischaracterization of "liberty" this way: My own "liberty" has been threatened by the invasion and occupation of Iraq by the United States, which had the effect of expanding the effectiveness of al-Qaeda a thousand-fold. Just because you need to pay taxes on certain things that benefit others and not you, personally, is about as UNAmerican as anything and is NOT the kind of attitude the framers of the Constitution had in mind. The fact that that war will cost trillions in the long run doesn't seem to affect you at all, I'm guessing. But Heaven Forbid all Americans should have a little more assurance that they can stay healthy in this the LAND OF THE FREE is worthy of massive protesting. Gotcha.

Liberty is the concept of self ownership, ownership of one's life, property, and fruits of labor. If liberty was taken away from someone by someone or something else, they have the right to fight for their liberty. Doesn't matter where this is occurring. If your argument was valid, the framers would have included things such as Medicare from the get-go, alas they believed in personal responsibility. You are the one mischaracterizing.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Don't you mean until you need it to do something for YOU? If not, then go here:

Private Island Bahamas, Islands for Sale

no, i mean period. Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people on this planet are capable of taking care of themselves without some looming big brother to "do something" for them? Government's job in a free society is to safeguard the boarders from foreign invaders and make sure that no one impedes on anyone else's liberty. THAT IS ALL. Anyone who expects more than that out of government should be ashamed to call themselves American.

I look at this constant mischaracterization of "liberty" this way: My own "liberty" has been threatened by the invasion and occupation of Iraq by the United States, which had the effect of expanding the effectiveness of al-Qaeda a thousand-fold. Just because you need to pay taxes on certain things that benefit others and not you, personally, is about as UNAmerican as anything and is NOT the kind of attitude the framers of the Constitution had in mind. The fact that that war will cost trillions in the long run doesn't seem to affect you at all, I'm guessing. But Heaven Forbid all Americans should have a little more assurance that they can stay healthy in this the LAND OF THE FREE is worthy of massive protesting. Gotcha.

Right. as if anyone has any assurance against disease and injury.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't, and never did. Where I live there is no tax on food. The property tax is probably minimally accounted for in rentals, but that is nominal. So unless you purchase big ticket items every year and own a home, at least here, there's no way in hell taxes add up to 50% or more of earnings.

You don't think the landlord builds the cost of his property taxes into the rent payment? Indirectly, the renter is paying that tax.
I said that.

If you own a car, you are paying hidden taxes/fees, registration, property tax, gasoline tax, something. Maybe you use public transportation, as far as I am aware of, every public transit system is supported through a tax of some sort, usually a sales tax.
All I'm saying is that there is no fucking way it amounts to 50% overall. AND you can either write those taxes off if you file the long form or the exemption amount takes into consideration a certain percentage everyone pays in these "hidden" taxes.

You might want to investigate a little more.
I have. And if you did your own taxes every year, you would know that I'm right.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/94197-i-work-for-the-government.html

........

you said yourself you never bothered to add up the numbers yet you are so sure.

Lets start with this list

* Cigarette Tax
* Corporate Income Tax (passed on to the consumer)
* Dog License Tax
* Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) don't forget state Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
* Fishing License Tax
* Food License Tax
* Gasoline Tax
* Hunting License Tax
* Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
* Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
* Liquor Tax
* Local Income Tax
* Marriage License Tax
* Property Tax
* Retail Sales Taxes
* Recreational Vehicle Tax
* Road Toll Booth Taxes
* State Income Tax
* Telephone federal excise tax, universal service fee, local and state surcharges, minimum usage surcharge, usage charge tax.
* Toll Roads, Bridges, and Tunnels
* Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
* Utility Taxes
* Vehicle License Registration
* Vehicle Sales Tax
* Well Permit Tax

And realize that some of these are taxes on businesses but you know as well as anyone that those taxes get passed on to all of us.

i would even go so far as to list workman's comp as a tax

let's not forget Social Security and Medicare taxes and the employer share of those because you are paying those too.

If you just add up income taxes at 28% state income tax at 5% and SS taxes of 15% total,

The government takes 48% off the top.

sure you get some back (maybe) I haven't got a tax refund in years. but then start adding up all the others and get back to me.

 

[keee keee]

Skull Pilot work for the government my ass you and me are tax slaves for the government. add up all my taxes I get confiscated from me it's over 50%. employees ussally get benifits from their employer. Uncle Sam gives me nothing!!!! Wait till Dingle Barry gets cap and trade passed we will all be paying tons more in taxes.

 

[MaggieMae]

no, i mean period. Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people on this planet are capable of taking care of themselves without some looming big brother to "do something" for them? Government's job in a free society is to safeguard the boarders from foreign invaders and make sure that no one impedes on anyone else's liberty. THAT IS ALL. Anyone who expects more than that out of government should be ashamed to call themselves American.

I look at this constant mischaracterization of "liberty" this way: My own "liberty" has been threatened by the invasion and occupation of Iraq by the United States, which had the effect of expanding the effectiveness of al-Qaeda a thousand-fold. Just because you need to pay taxes on certain things that benefit others and not you, personally, is about as UNAmerican as anything and is NOT the kind of attitude the framers of the Constitution had in mind. The fact that that war will cost trillions in the long run doesn't seem to affect you at all, I'm guessing. But Heaven Forbid all Americans should have a little more assurance that they can stay healthy in this the LAND OF THE FREE is worthy of massive protesting. Gotcha.

Liberty is the concept of self ownership, ownership of one's life, property, and fruits of labor. If liberty was taken away from someone by someone or something else, they have the right to fight for their liberty. Doesn't matter where this is occurring. If your argument was valid, the framers would have included things such as Medicare from the get-go, alas they believed in personal responsibility. You are the one mischaracterizing.

I think if Madison and Jefferson were alive today they would be shocked that the HEALTH of the American people was not considered important. Some of what is written in the Constitution didn't need explaining back then, but the framers must be rolling in their graves wondering how some people could be so stupid as to NOT know what they meant.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

I look at this constant mischaracterization of "liberty" this way: My own "liberty" has been threatened by the invasion and occupation of Iraq by the United States, which had the effect of expanding the effectiveness of al-Qaeda a thousand-fold. Just because you need to pay taxes on certain things that benefit others and not you, personally, is about as UNAmerican as anything and is NOT the kind of attitude the framers of the Constitution had in mind. The fact that that war will cost trillions in the long run doesn't seem to affect you at all, I'm guessing. But Heaven Forbid all Americans should have a little more assurance that they can stay healthy in this the LAND OF THE FREE is worthy of massive protesting. Gotcha.

Liberty is the concept of self ownership, ownership of one's life, property, and fruits of labor. If liberty was taken away from someone by someone or something else, they have the right to fight for their liberty. Doesn't matter where this is occurring. If your argument was valid, the framers would have included things such as Medicare from the get-go, alas they believed in personal responsibility. You are the one mischaracterizing.

I think if Madison and Jefferson were alive today they would be shocked that the HEALTH of the American people was not considered important. Some of what is written in the Constitution didn't need explaining back then, but the framers must be rolling in their graves wondering how some people could be so stupid as to NOT know what they meant.

WHoever said the health of our citizens is unimportant?

 

[MaggieMae]

You don't think the landlord builds the cost of his property taxes into the rent payment? Indirectly, the renter is paying that tax.
I said that.

If you own a car, you are paying hidden taxes/fees, registration, property tax, gasoline tax, something. Maybe you use public transportation, as far as I am aware of, every public transit system is supported through a tax of some sort, usually a sales tax.
All I'm saying is that there is no fucking way it amounts to 50% overall. AND you can either write those taxes off if you file the long form or the exemption amount takes into consideration a certain percentage everyone pays in these "hidden" taxes.

You might want to investigate a little more.
I have. And if you did your own taxes every year, you would know that I'm right.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/94197-i-work-for-the-government.html

........

you said yourself you never bothered to add up the numbers yet you are so sure.

Lets start with this list

* Cigarette Tax
* Corporate Income Tax (passed on to the consumer)
* Dog License Tax
* Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) don't forget state Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
* Fishing License Tax
* Food License Tax
* Gasoline Tax
* Hunting License Tax
* Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
* Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
* Liquor Tax
* Local Income Tax
* Marriage License Tax
* Property Tax
* Retail Sales Taxes
* Recreational Vehicle Tax
* Road Toll Booth Taxes
* State Income Tax
* Telephone federal excise tax, universal service fee, local and state surcharges, minimum usage surcharge, usage charge tax.
* Toll Roads, Bridges, and Tunnels
* Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
* Utility Taxes
* Vehicle License Registration
* Vehicle Sales Tax
* Well Permit Tax

And realize that some of these are taxes on businesses but you know as well as anyone that those taxes get passed on to all of us.

i would even go so far as to list workman's comp as a tax

let's not forget Social Security and Medicare taxes and the employer share of those because you are paying those too.

If you just add up income taxes at 28% state income tax at 5% and SS taxes of 15% total,

The government takes 48% off the top.

sure you get some back (maybe) I haven't got a tax refund in years. but then start adding up all the others and get back to me.

I never said I didn't bother to add up all the taxes I pay because I do--every year when I do my taxes. All my receipts get filed in preparation, and they are all added up at tax time, and they DO NOT add up to 50% (including income tax), ever.

 

[rightwinger]

I look at this constant mischaracterization of "liberty" this way: My own "liberty" has been threatened by the invasion and occupation of Iraq by the United States, which had the effect of expanding the effectiveness of al-Qaeda a thousand-fold. Just because you need to pay taxes on certain things that benefit others and not you, personally, is about as UNAmerican as anything and is NOT the kind of attitude the framers of the Constitution had in mind. The fact that that war will cost trillions in the long run doesn't seem to affect you at all, I'm guessing. But Heaven Forbid all Americans should have a little more assurance that they can stay healthy in this the LAND OF THE FREE is worthy of massive protesting. Gotcha.

Liberty is the concept of self ownership, ownership of one's life, property, and fruits of labor. If liberty was taken away from someone by someone or something else, they have the right to fight for their liberty. Doesn't matter where this is occurring. If your argument was valid, the framers would have included things such as Medicare from the get-go, alas they believed in personal responsibility. You are the one mischaracterizing.

I think if Madison and Jefferson were alive today they would be shocked that the HEALTH of the American people was not considered important. Some of what is written in the Constitution didn't need explaining back then, but the framers must be rolling in their graves wondering how some people could be so stupid as to NOT know what they meant.

It is absurd that the right winnuts wrap themselves in the Constitution while they deny health coverage to fellow Americans

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Liberty is the concept of self ownership, ownership of one's life, property, and fruits of labor. If liberty was taken away from someone by someone or something else, they have the right to fight for their liberty. Doesn't matter where this is occurring. If your argument was valid, the framers would have included things such as Medicare from the get-go, alas they believed in personal responsibility. You are the one mischaracterizing.

I think if Madison and Jefferson were alive today they would be shocked that the HEALTH of the American people was not considered important. Some of what is written in the Constitution didn't need explaining back then, but the framers must be rolling in their graves wondering how some people could be so stupid as to NOT know what they meant.

It is absurd that the right winnuts wrap themselves in the Constitution while they deny health coverage to fellow Americans

Does the Constitution mention something about health coverage?

 

[L.K.Eder]

I want them all to resign so we can start all over again.

Yes, and this time hire some grownups.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28o3yUvuQSA&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Maddie[/ame]

looks like a scene from a zucker, abrahams, zucker movie.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

I want government to take care of what I deem to be a need because I do not have the ability to take care of myself without your help.

 

[Skull Pilot]

........

you said yourself you never bothered to add up the numbers yet you are so sure.

Lets start with this list

* Cigarette Tax
* Corporate Income Tax (passed on to the consumer)
* Dog License Tax
* Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) don't forget state Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
* Fishing License Tax
* Food License Tax
* Gasoline Tax
* Hunting License Tax
* Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
* Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
* Liquor Tax
* Local Income Tax
* Marriage License Tax
* Property Tax
* Retail Sales Taxes
* Recreational Vehicle Tax
* Road Toll Booth Taxes
* State Income Tax
* Telephone federal excise tax, universal service fee, local and state surcharges, minimum usage surcharge, usage charge tax.
* Toll Roads, Bridges, and Tunnels
* Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
* Utility Taxes
* Vehicle License Registration
* Vehicle Sales Tax
* Well Permit Tax

And realize that some of these are taxes on businesses but you know as well as anyone that those taxes get passed on to all of us.

i would even go so far as to list workman's comp as a tax

let's not forget Social Security and Medicare taxes and the employer share of those because you are paying those too.

If you just add up income taxes at 28% state income tax at 5% and SS taxes of 15% total,

The government takes 48% off the top.

sure you get some back (maybe) I haven't got a tax refund in years. but then start adding up all the others and get back to me.

I never said I didn't bother to add up all the taxes I pay because I do--every year when I do my taxes. All my receipts get filed in preparation, and they are all added up at tax time, and they DO NOT add up to 50% (including income tax), ever.

really? so every time you fill up your gas tank, you figure out the state and federal tax and claim it on your 1040?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

We got off track on Ravi's thread objecting to Obama being compared to Hitler, but there seemed to be some interest in the new topic, so I'm moving it here.

One of the comparisons was in tactics used by government to accomplish whatever goals the leadership might want to achieve. But whether such tactics are proper, appropriate, or inappropriate is often in our perspectives of what we think government should be, and what we do and do not want government to do for us or to us.

The question under discussion was this but does not necessarily have to be limited to this:

From your perspective, what IS the appropriate role of government in taking over and running private commerce and industry at any level or in any circumstances? What limits would you place on government's ability to tell you where you can and cannot work, what you are or are not allowed to earn, what kind of healthcare you are required to have, what sort of union you must belong to?
And add to that, from your perspective, what is the appropriate role of government in telling you how much you must or cannot save, how much interest you can or cannot earn, what you can and cannot invest or speculate in, what risks you are or are not allowed to take?

It would be helpful if Federal and State government distinctions would be made if you in fact think there are distinctions between Federal and State government.

The government has NO APPROPRIATE role in taking over and running private industry or commerce at ANY LEVEL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCEThe government should never have the right to tell me where I can or can not work, how much a private company decides to pay me is NEVER the government's business except in relation to income taxes, and the government has no power to tell me if i should or shouldn't have health insurance and it also has no right telling me what level of insurance I must buy. Same for unions

The government once again has no role in any of those. They also do not have a role to bail me out if I make a risky investment and lose everything I have because of it. That is my responsibility.

Anything short is UnAmerican to me.

 

[Citizen]

NO way. The preamble to the Constitution tells us in 52 words that the nation's reason for being can be reduced to six principles:

Society
Justice
Peace
Security
Commonwealth
Freedom

I want a government that abides by our Constitution and nothing else. Everything else is states issues.

I want a SCOTUS who applied the law in accordance with the Constitution and does not lean left or right.

I'd like our politicians to write bills in plain English, read them before they sign them, and attach nothing to any bill to slide crap through that should not go through.

I'd like to expand treason to cover desception of 'we, the people'.
I presume you mean to cover only YOU people, who happen to have a different viewpoint on the Constitutional rights of ALL people, no? Otherwise, I don't get what you're saying.

I'd like all our politicians to be honest and work for the common good of 'we, the people'.

I'd like the only special interest group to be 'we, the people'.

If we were still a country of 72 million, not 325 million, still drove around in buggies and used pony express for communication, then yes, we could abide only by the Constitution. But the framers were not stupid, and they specifically designed the Constitution to be a living document, subject to modernization. That's why where are so many ambiguous clauses therein.

You are wrong, our Constitution is not a living document, but a written legal document, which means the same today as it did when written.

Our founders were intelligent enough to realize that there would be times the Constitution needed to change, and that ability was built into the document, called the Amendment process, which is the only way the Constitution can change.

 

[MaggieMae]

I think if Madison and Jefferson were alive today they would be shocked that the HEALTH of the American people was not considered important. Some of what is written in the Constitution didn't need explaining back then, but the framers must be rolling in their graves wondering how some people could be so stupid as to NOT know what they meant.

It is absurd that the right winnuts wrap themselves in the Constitution while they deny health coverage to fellow Americans

Does the Constitution mention something about health coverage?

No, but it doesn't say anything about missile defense shields, either. Your point is moot.

 

[MaggieMae]

you said yourself you never bothered to add up the numbers yet you are so sure.

Lets start with this list

* Cigarette Tax
* Corporate Income Tax (passed on to the consumer)
* Dog License Tax
* Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) don't forget state Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
* Fishing License Tax
* Food License Tax
* Gasoline Tax
* Hunting License Tax
* Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
* Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
* Liquor Tax
* Local Income Tax
* Marriage License Tax
* Property Tax
* Retail Sales Taxes
* Recreational Vehicle Tax
* Road Toll Booth Taxes
* State Income Tax
* Telephone federal excise tax, universal service fee, local and state surcharges, minimum usage surcharge, usage charge tax.
* Toll Roads, Bridges, and Tunnels
* Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
* Utility Taxes
* Vehicle License Registration
* Vehicle Sales Tax
* Well Permit Tax

And realize that some of these are taxes on businesses but you know as well as anyone that those taxes get passed on to all of us.

i would even go so far as to list workman's comp as a tax

let's not forget Social Security and Medicare taxes and the employer share of those because you are paying those too.

If you just add up income taxes at 28% state income tax at 5% and SS taxes of 15% total,

The government takes 48% off the top.

sure you get some back (maybe) I haven't got a tax refund in years. but then start adding up all the others and get back to me.

I never said I didn't bother to add up all the taxes I pay because I do--every year when I do my taxes. All my receipts get filed in preparation, and they are all added up at tax time, and they DO NOT add up to 50% (including income tax), ever.

really? so every time you fill up your gas tank, you figure out the state and federal tax and claim it on your 1040?

I use the proper schedule in the 1040 instructions. It's easily calculated, however, because you can easily find out exactly how much of the cost in a gallon of gas is tax.

Your "list" above, however, assumes that everyone makes use of all those services. We don't.

 

[DiamondDave]

It is absurd that the right winnuts wrap themselves in the Constitution while they deny health coverage to fellow Americans

Does the Constitution mention something about health coverage?

No, but it doesn't say anything about missile defense shields, either. Your point is moot.

Though it is in the constitution about military and defense

And don't give the normal debunked 'general welfare' crapola, which has been shown over and over and over again not to mean individual personal welfare and especially not at the expense of the personal rights and freedoms of another

It is not in the constitution anywhere supporting wealth redistribution, the spreading of personal responsibilities over the populous, nor making the free individual a ward of the state to gain governmental financial windfall for merely existing

 

[MaggieMae]

We got off track on Ravi's thread objecting to Obama being compared to Hitler, but there seemed to be some interest in the new topic, so I'm moving it here.

One of the comparisons was in tactics used by government to accomplish whatever goals the leadership might want to achieve. But whether such tactics are proper, appropriate, or inappropriate is often in our perspectives of what we think government should be, and what we do and do not want government to do for us or to us.

The question under discussion was this but does not necessarily have to be limited to this:

From your perspective, what IS the appropriate role of government in taking over and running private commerce and industry at any level or in any circumstances? What limits would you place on government's ability to tell you where you can and cannot work, what you are or are not allowed to earn, what kind of healthcare you are required to have, what sort of union you must belong to?
And add to that, from your perspective, what is the appropriate role of government in telling you how much you must or cannot save, how much interest you can or cannot earn, what you can and cannot invest or speculate in, what risks you are or are not allowed to take?

It would be helpful if Federal and State government distinctions would be made if you in fact think there are distinctions between Federal and State government.

The government has NO APPROPRIATE role in taking over and running private industry or commerce at ANY LEVEL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCEThe government should never have the right to tell me where I can or can not work, how much a private company decides to pay me is NEVER the government's business except in relation to income taxes, and the government has no power to tell me if i should or shouldn't have health insurance and it also has no right telling me what level of insurance I must buy. Same for unions

The government once again has no role in any of those. They also do not have a role to bail me out if I make a risky investment and lose everything I have because of it. That is my responsibility.

Anything short is UnAmerican to me.

If your risky investment also took down other people with you, it could be considered a white collar crime and you would go to jail. Think Bernie Madoff.

You can argue 'till pigs fly over whether it was "morally" correct to "bail out" the financial institutions, but it was a necessary move in order to save the entire economy from far worse. And yes, I too still wait for some kind of PUNISHMENT to happen with them.