Veganism and the Bible

[buttercup]

To me, having respect for the animal is what I mentioned in my original comments which was that you should give thanks to God and to the animal for the nourishment that it will provide for your body and that the food should not be wasted.

A few quick things. First, there is no need to give “thanks” to the animal you’re eating, because the animal did not willingly give his life to you. It was taken from him.

Secondly, eating flesh and other animal products is linked to preventable diseases like cancer and heart disease, so as controversial as this may be to say around here (where there is a lot of indoctrinated, outdated thinking) you are not “nourishing” your body by eating a chopped up corpse. You are increasing your risk of cancer, heart disease, and other health issues associated with a diet high in animal products.

Thirdly, the animal you are "thanking God" for was exploited and brutally slaughtered, unnecessarily. There is ZERO nutritional need to eat flesh. We have been lied to for a very long time, by not only the government but the animal industries who are only concerned with making money, and of course they want to maintain the status quo. People eat meat because of habit, tradition and to satisfy their personal desire, in other words for their own pleasure.

To me there is something very wrong about thanking God for the chopped up corpse on your plate that was the end of result of exploitation, fear, pain, cruelty, violence and needless killing for our own personal desires.

Please also keep in mind that I haven't endorsed factory farming or the excess of food production that happens around the world.

That sounds good, but here is the problem. The overwhelming majority of meat (and all animal products) comes from factory farms. And even the small minority of meat that doesn’t come from factory farms is still the result of exploitation and brutal slaughter. Those sentient beings still have their lives taken from them against their will. The “humane slaughter” myth is just that - a myth. I used to believe it, before I went vegan. But not for long, because I realized that there is no “humane” way to take the life of a sentient being who wants to live just as much as you and I do.

The word “humane” means "characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy.” Harming an animal and taking his life needlessly is not compassionate. It doesn’t matter HOW you kill that animal. Do you really think that someone is holding their hand and singing lullabies to them before they stab them in the throat? That's not the way it works, not even in the so-called "humane" settings.

The fact that you are needlessly taking the one thing that matters the most to that animal - his very life - is not compassionate. True compassion would be loving and not harming that animal, not treating the animal as an object, but treating that animal the way YOU would want to be treated, if you were in that situation.

Furthermore, there is clear evidence that even the places that claim to slaughter animals “humanely” do NOT. For example, in a number of countries, killing pigs by gas chamber is considered one of the more “humane” ways of slaughter. That is a joke, because it’s obvious the animals are not only terrorized but they are literally burning to death from the inside out.

My point was based around giving proper respect for the animal you are about to consume, not to take its death for granted, and also that animal husbandry and meat consumption is prevalent in the Bible and was part of Jesus's life as well (not factory farming of course but domesticated livestock, fishing, and basic agrarian style of living which included animals was a common practice then as well).

Giving “proper respect” would be taking care of the animal, as was God’s ORIGINAL INTENT, not using the animal for our own interests. Giving proper respect would be letting the animal LIVE, and eating something else, something that would not only be healthier, but also not the result of cruelty.

We are not living in biblical days. That is a copout. We are living in a world where billions of animals are killed needlessly after a life of utter misery, suffering and zero respect for them as individual beings, or their dignity.

For historical perspective up until only about the last century most food consumption around most of the world was strictly seasonal which also included how livestock and wild animals were harvested and utilized. Different times of the year you would only eat the fruits, vegetables, and grains that were in season and that also meant certain times of the year animals were included in that as livestock grew old or lost their usage for things like milk they would then be slaughtered for meat consumption by the farmer or going into the winter there would be meat stored. That of course still happens today as well but just not on the local scale it once did. The big difference between today and the centuries that have past is the availability of nearly all foods all year and the ease around it which unfortunately gave rise to factory farms and the disconnection between people and their food. I completely agree that many of the practices of factory farming is very sad and unnecessary, and I am an advocate of their being less meat consumption overall and more of a focus around self sustainment and simplicity.

For me personally we (meaning my husband and I) do eat meat probably one or two days per week but the meat, like beef or chicken, that we get is typically only coming from a friend that has what I guess what would be considered a micro-farm that is about two miles down the road from our home. We know the source, we know the owner, and we know that the meat is only harvested like that when necessary and we stock up and use it sparingly. We do have chickens and so we do use the eggs for our own consumption or we trade the eggs for other things like honey or vegetables that we don't grow ourselves with people that we know. If one of our chickens stops producing and is nearing the end of its life or is injuring other chickens then we will harvest that chicken for our consumption. For us we see that lifestyle as respectful and not wasteful or cruel. It goes back to early days of simple living in my opinion and resembles a possible connection with how Jesus would have potentially lived as well as his followers.

I hope this helps clarify.

Animals and plants are not the same, at all, and it irks me to no end when people act as if they are. Crops are “harvested.” Animals are not “harvested.” Let's be real, they are being used, taken advantage of and then killed, needlessly, for our own desires.

It’s good that you do not participate with factory farms, but animals are still being used instead loved, killed instead of respected as the sentient beings they are, who are really no different than your dog or cat. Did you know that pigs are ranked even smarter than dogs? So if you eat a pig, it’s no different than eating a dog, which most of us in the western world consider cruel and barbaric. The only difference is the cultural perspective that we were raised to accept. But what is more important - culture/tradition or truth?

This may be controversial, but I have given this a lot of thought, and here is what I think the problem is. We (humanity) have a fundamentally incorrect view of animals. We consider animals as put here for US, to use for our own interests, to be treated as a means to an end, with little to no regard for them as individual sentient beings (the way we view dogs and cats.)

You brought up biblical days, but what is important is not the way things were and are in this fallen world, but the way God INTENDED things to be. The way God originally created things to be, the IDEAL that God wanted and created, before we, the human race, screwed it all up.

Animals were not put here for US. That is a completely anthropocentric view, and as Christians, we should have a theocentric view.

As Colossians 1:16 says:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him”​

So animals do not exist for US, they exist because GOD created them, loves them, enjoys them… they were never meant to be objects to use for our own selfish reasons. God entrusted them to us, to take care of them, but eventually our “dominion” turned into something else entirely.

I wrote a blog post on this topic. Please read it, it’s not too long, but it goes into this in more depth than I can write here, as I don’t want this post to be too long. A Closer Look At Dominion - Live Mercifully

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

To me, having respect for the animal is what I mentioned in my original comments which was that you should give thanks to God and to the animal for the nourishment that it will provide for your body and that the food should not be wasted.

A few quick things. First, there is no need to give “thanks” to the animal you’re eating, because the animal did not willingly give his life to you. It was taken from him.

Secondly, eating flesh and other animal products is linked to preventable diseases like cancer and heart disease, so as controversial as this may be to say around here (where there is a lot of indoctrinated, outdated thinking) you are not “nourishing” your body by eating a chopped up corpse. You are increasing your risk of cancer, heart disease, and other health issues associated with a diet high in animal products.

Thirdly, the animal you are "thanking God" for was exploited and brutally slaughtered, unnecessarily. There is ZERO nutritional need to eat flesh. We have been lied to for a very long time, by not only the government but the animal industries who are only concerned with making money, and of course they want to maintain the status quo. People eat meat because of habit, tradition and to satisfy their personal desire, in other words for their own pleasure.

To me there is something very wrong about thanking God for the chopped up corpse on your plate that was the end of result of exploitation, fear, pain, cruelty, violence and needless killing for our own personal desires.

Please also keep in mind that I haven't endorsed factory farming or the excess of food production that happens around the world.

That sounds good, but here is the problem. The overwhelming majority of meat (and all animal products) comes from factory farms. And even the small minority of meat that doesn’t come from factory farms is still the result of exploitation and brutal slaughter. Those sentient beings still have their lives taken from them against their will. The “humane slaughter” myth is just that - a myth. I used to believe it, before I went vegan. But not for long, because I realized that there is no “humane” way to take the life of a sentient being who wants to live just as much as you and I do.

The word “humane” means "characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy.” Harming an animal and taking his life needlessly is not compassionate. It doesn’t matter HOW you kill that animal. Do you really think that someone is holding their hand and singing lullabies to them before they stab them in the throat? That's not the way it works, not even in the so-called "humane" settings.

The fact that you are needlessly taking the one thing that matters the most to that animal - his very life - is not compassionate. True compassion would be loving and not harming that animal, not treating the animal as an object, but treating that animal the way YOU would want to be treated, if you were in that situation.

Furthermore, there is clear evidence that even the places that claim to slaughter animals “humanely” do NOT. For example, in a number of countries, killing pigs by gas chamber is considered one of the more “humane” ways of slaughter. That is a joke, because it’s obvious the animals are not only terrorized but they are literally burning to death from the inside out.

My point was based around giving proper respect for the animal you are about to consume, not to take its death for granted, and also that animal husbandry and meat consumption is prevalent in the Bible and was part of Jesus's life as well (not factory farming of course but domesticated livestock, fishing, and basic agrarian style of living which included animals was a common practice then as well).

Giving “proper respect” would be taking care of the animal, as was God’s ORIGINAL INTENT, not using the animal for our own interests. Giving proper respect would be letting the animal LIVE, and eating something else, something that would not only be healthier, but also not the result of cruelty.

We are not living in biblical days. That is a copout. We are living in a world where billions of animals are killed needlessly after a life of utter misery, suffering and zero respect for them as individual beings, or their dignity.

For historical perspective up until only about the last century most food consumption around most of the world was strictly seasonal which also included how livestock and wild animals were harvested and utilized. Different times of the year you would only eat the fruits, vegetables, and grains that were in season and that also meant certain times of the year animals were included in that as livestock grew old or lost their usage for things like milk they would then be slaughtered for meat consumption by the farmer or going into the winter there would be meat stored. That of course still happens today as well but just not on the local scale it once did. The big difference between today and the centuries that have past is the availability of nearly all foods all year and the ease around it which unfortunately gave rise to factory farms and the disconnection between people and their food. I completely agree that many of the practices of factory farming is very sad and unnecessary, and I am an advocate of their being less meat consumption overall and more of a focus around self sustainment and simplicity.

For me personally we (meaning my husband and I) do eat meat probably one or two days per week but the meat, like beef or chicken, that we get is typically only coming from a friend that has what I guess what would be considered a micro-farm that is about two miles down the road from our home. We know the source, we know the owner, and we know that the meat is only harvested like that when necessary and we stock up and use it sparingly. We do have chickens and so we do use the eggs for our own consumption or we trade the eggs for other things like honey or vegetables that we don't grow ourselves with people that we know. If one of our chickens stops producing and is nearing the end of its life or is injuring other chickens then we will harvest that chicken for our consumption. For us we see that lifestyle as respectful and not wasteful or cruel. It goes back to early days of simple living in my opinion and resembles a possible connection with how Jesus would have potentially lived as well as his followers.

I hope this helps clarify.

Animals and plants are not the same, at all, and it irks me to no end when people act as if they are. Crops are “harvested.” Animals are not “harvested.” Let's be real, they are being used, taken advantage of and then killed, needlessly, for our own desires.

It’s good that you do not participate with factory farms, but animals are still being used instead loved, killed instead of respected as the sentient beings they are, who are really no different than your dog or cat. Did you know that pigs are ranked even smarter than dogs? So if you eat a pig, it’s no different than eating a dog, which most of us in the western world consider cruel and barbaric. The only difference is the cultural perspective that we were raised to accept. But what is more important - culture/tradition or truth?

This may be controversial, but I have given this a lot of thought, and here is what I think the problem is. We (humanity) have a fundamentally incorrect view of animals. We consider animals as put here for US, to use for our own interests, to be treated as a means to an end, with little to no regard for them as individual sentient beings (the way we view dogs and cats.)

You brought up biblical days, but what is important is not the way things were and are in this fallen world, but the way God INTENDED things to be. The way God originally created things to be, the IDEAL that God wanted and created, before we, the human race, screwed it all up.

Animals were not put here for US. That is a completely anthropocentric view, and as Christians, we should have a theocentric view.

As Colossians 1:16 says:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him”​

So animals do not exist for US, they exist because GOD created them, loves them, enjoys them… they were never meant to be objects to use for our own selfish reasons. God entrusted them to us, to take care of them, but eventually our “dominion” turned into something else entirely.

I wrote a blog post on this topic. Please read it, it’s not too long, but it goes into this in more depth than I can write here, as I don’t want this post to be too long. A Closer Look At Dominion - Live Mercifully

I’m sorry for the delay. I appreciate your point of view and I fully respect your decision to eat how you would like. What I will say from a Biblical perspective regarding eating meat is that Acts chapter 10 ultimately sums up whether or not it’s ok to eat meat in my opinion based on scripture. The Bible allows it and our constitution does not prohibit it. The ability to coexist to where you eat how you’d like and I eat how I’d like is possible, biblical, and legal. Now, how the animals are treated in many cases I would very much agree with you on.

 

[buttercup]

I’m sorry for the delay. I appreciate your point of view and I fully respect your decision to eat how you would like. What I will say from a Biblical perspective regarding eating meat is that Acts chapter 10 ultimately sums up whether or not it’s ok to eat meat in my opinion based on scripture. The Bible allows it and our constitution does not prohibit it. The ability to coexist to where you eat how you’d like and I eat how I’d like is possible, biblical, and legal. Now, how the animals are treated in many cases I would very much agree with you on.

Thanks for the civil replies. I have two things to say. First, Acts 10 has nothing to do with permission to eat anything we want. It is not even about diet, so it's a terrible misuse of scripture to claim that it shows God approves of needless killing and selfishness.

Later in the chapter (Acts 10:28) it clearly states what it's about. I'm going to post a short article on this.

The context of this passage is Peter going onto the roof to pray and becoming hungry and falling into a deep trance. While in the trance, Peter has a vision of a sheet full of animals descending from the sky. The animals on the sheet are ones that were considered unclean according to Jewish law. Then Peter hears the voice telling him to kill and eat the animals, but Peter refuses on account of him seeing the animals as unclean.

The purpose of the vision is to show Peter that God doesn’t see any person as unclean and that salvation is not only for Jews but also for Gentiles (Romans 3:29). The meaning of the vision became clear to Peter when he went and visited Cornelius, who is a Gentile, given that Jews were forbidden to eat with Gentiles because they were seen as “unclean”. Peter explains the vision within the text when he says to Cornelius and his household, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.” (Acts 10:28).

The reason the vision makes sense and was significant is because Peter saw it as unclean to kill and eat the animals in the vision. Notice he did not kill the animals but instead preached that Jesus died for everyone, including for the Gentiles. He understood the purpose of the vision, that it had nothing to do with food and everything to do with people. This is why God did not show any sign of displeasure in Peter’s refusal to kill and eat. Peter passed God’s test, understood the vision, and fulfilled the inspired calling which had enormous significance for salvation of Gentiles. Even on that visit to the home of Cornelius, all who heard Peter’s words received the holy spirit (Acts 10:44-46).

source​

And the second thing I want to say is that your reply is a moot point, because I never once claimed that God does not allow flesh-eating. I never claimed that flesh eating is a sin, in and of itself. I never claimed that the bible does not contain flesh eating within it. Obviously it does, as it does lots of things that are not part of God's perfect will.

So your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) seems to boil down to "We're allowed to do it." Well, no one ever said otherwise.

Just because God allows certain things in this fallen world doesn't mean it's what He WANTS us to do.

I'll repeat my main points, what I've been saying all along.

1) Eating flesh is completely unnecessary, so it boils down to people doing it simply because they want to, to satisfy their own desires.

2) Eating flesh was NOT God's original intent for mankind, as we can clearly see in Genesis 1:29.

3) Eating flesh is NOT part of God's ultimate plan, as we know that He is going to restore the Edenic world He created the beginning, and we also know there is no death, killing or suffering in heaven.

4) We are told throughout the bible to choose MERCY and love, to not put our own selfish desires first.

5) Animals were not put here for US, that is a completely anthropocentric point of view, and biblically incorrect.

6) Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, "on earth as it is in heaven."

7) God loves the animals, they are precious to him. Unlike mankind, they are completely innocent, vulnerable and voiceless.

8) Obviously our God of love, mercy and peace prefers us to choose love, mercy and peace toward the innocent, rather than needless violence and exploitation.​

So here is my question for you. In light of those points I listed, and the fact that flesh eating is a part of this fallen world, not God's perfect world or eternal plan.... should Christians try to align their actions with God's PERFECT, heavenly will.... or the worldly practices that God allows to take place in this fallen world, due to our sinful nature?

In other words, as Christians we have a CHOICE. Why choose needless killing and exploitation? Why not choose mercy, love, peace and nonviolence?

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

I’m sorry for the delay. I appreciate your point of view and I fully respect your decision to eat how you would like. What I will say from a Biblical perspective regarding eating meat is that Acts chapter 10 ultimately sums up whether or not it’s ok to eat meat in my opinion based on scripture. The Bible allows it and our constitution does not prohibit it. The ability to coexist to where you eat how you’d like and I eat how I’d like is possible, biblical, and legal. Now, how the animals are treated in many cases I would very much agree with you on.

Thanks for the civil replies. I have two things to say. First, Acts 10 has nothing to do with permission to eat anything we want. It is not even about diet, so it's a terrible misuse of scripture to claim that it shows God approves of needless killing and selfishness.

Later in the chapter (Acts 10:28) it clearly states what it's about. I'm going to post a short article on this.

The context of this passage is Peter going onto the roof to pray and becoming hungry and falling into a deep trance. While in the trance, Peter has a vision of a sheet full of animals descending from the sky. The animals on the sheet are ones that were considered unclean according to Jewish law. Then Peter hears the voice telling him to kill and eat the animals, but Peter refuses on account of him seeing the animals as unclean.

The purpose of the vision is to show Peter that God doesn’t see any person as unclean and that salvation is not only for Jews but also for Gentiles (Romans 3:29). The meaning of the vision became clear to Peter when he went and visited Cornelius, who is a Gentile, given that Jews were forbidden to eat with Gentiles because they were seen as “unclean”. Peter explains the vision within the text when he says to Cornelius and his household, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.” (Acts 10:28).

The reason the vision makes sense and was significant is because Peter saw it as unclean to kill and eat the animals in the vision. Notice he did not kill the animals but instead preached that Jesus died for everyone, including for the Gentiles. He understood the purpose of the vision, that it had nothing to do with food and everything to do with people. This is why God did not show any sign of displeasure in Peter’s refusal to kill and eat. Peter passed God’s test, understood the vision, and fulfilled the inspired calling which had enormous significance for salvation of Gentiles. Even on that visit to the home of Cornelius, all who heard Peter’s words received the holy spirit (Acts 10:44-46).

source​

And the second thing I want to say is that your reply is a moot point, because I never once claimed that God does not allow flesh-eating. I never claimed that flesh eating is a sin, in and of itself. I never claimed that the bible does not contain flesh eating within it. Obviously it does, as it does lots of things that are not part of God's perfect will.

So your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) seems to boil down to "We're allowed to do it." Well, no one ever said otherwise.

Just because God allows certain things in this fallen world doesn't mean it's what He WANTS us to do.

I'll repeat my main points, what I've been saying all along.

1) Eating flesh is completely unnecessary, so it boils down to people doing it simply because they want to, to satisfy their own desires.

2) Eating flesh was NOT God's original intent for mankind, as we can clearly see in Genesis 1:29.

3) Eating flesh is NOT part of God's ultimate plan, as we know that He is going to restore the Edenic world He created the beginning, and we also know there is no death, killing or suffering in heaven.

4) We are told throughout the bible to choose MERCY and love, to not put our own selfish desires first.

5) Animals were not put here for US, that is a completely anthropocentric point of view, and biblically incorrect.

6) Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, "on earth as it is in heaven."

7) God loves the animals, they are precious to him. Unlike mankind, they are completely innocent, vulnerable and voiceless.

8) Obviously our God of love, mercy and peace prefers us to choose love, mercy and peace toward the innocent, rather than needless violence and exploitation.​

So here is my question for you. In light of those points I listed, and the fact that flesh eating is a part of this fallen world, not God's perfect world or eternal plan.... should Christians try to align their actions with God's PERFECT, heavenly will.... or the worldly practices that God allows to take place in this fallen world, due to our sinful nature?

In other words, as Christians we have a CHOICE. Why choose needless killing and exploitation? Why not choose mercy, love, peace and nonviolence?

I'm sorry but I disagree with how you are interpreting these versus in the Bible. Acts 10 did two basic things in my opinion. Through Jesus, it abolished the old law that was stated in Leviticus for what was designated clean and unclean to eat and told Peter that all animals that God created are clean and lawful to eat. Arise, kill, and eat. There's only so may ways to interpret that in my opinion. It also tied into Peter being told that he should teach the gospel to all as all are equal to receive. There is really nowhere in the Bible where Jesus says you should not eat meat, in fact he instructed otherwise and taught otherwise. I would not meat if He forbid it.

I hold no ill will towards you or your life choices to abstain from meat consumption. By all means be you and rock it, but I consume meat for my nourishment, I enjoy eating meals with specific types of meat, and I'm allowed to eat it both through Jesus and through freedom. I respect your passion and your hope to change minds to fit your mindset, but the argument of this topic is basically whether or not the Bible endorses or calls for veganism, it doesn't call for it nor does it say anything against practicing it in my opinion. I understand the moral and ethical qualms people have around it, please believe me, but it's also ok for the two of us to coexist with our beliefs AND still love and follow Christ.

 

[buttercup]

I’m sorry for the delay. I appreciate your point of view and I fully respect your decision to eat how you would like. What I will say from a Biblical perspective regarding eating meat is that Acts chapter 10 ultimately sums up whether or not it’s ok to eat meat in my opinion based on scripture. The Bible allows it and our constitution does not prohibit it. The ability to coexist to where you eat how you’d like and I eat how I’d like is possible, biblical, and legal. Now, how the animals are treated in many cases I would very much agree with you on.

Thanks for the civil replies. I have two things to say. First, Acts 10 has nothing to do with permission to eat anything we want. It is not even about diet, so it's a terrible misuse of scripture to claim that it shows God approves of needless killing and selfishness.

Later in the chapter (Acts 10:28) it clearly states what it's about. I'm going to post a short article on this.

The context of this passage is Peter going onto the roof to pray and becoming hungry and falling into a deep trance. While in the trance, Peter has a vision of a sheet full of animals descending from the sky. The animals on the sheet are ones that were considered unclean according to Jewish law. Then Peter hears the voice telling him to kill and eat the animals, but Peter refuses on account of him seeing the animals as unclean.

The purpose of the vision is to show Peter that God doesn’t see any person as unclean and that salvation is not only for Jews but also for Gentiles (Romans 3:29). The meaning of the vision became clear to Peter when he went and visited Cornelius, who is a Gentile, given that Jews were forbidden to eat with Gentiles because they were seen as “unclean”. Peter explains the vision within the text when he says to Cornelius and his household, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.” (Acts 10:28).

The reason the vision makes sense and was significant is because Peter saw it as unclean to kill and eat the animals in the vision. Notice he did not kill the animals but instead preached that Jesus died for everyone, including for the Gentiles. He understood the purpose of the vision, that it had nothing to do with food and everything to do with people. This is why God did not show any sign of displeasure in Peter’s refusal to kill and eat. Peter passed God’s test, understood the vision, and fulfilled the inspired calling which had enormous significance for salvation of Gentiles. Even on that visit to the home of Cornelius, all who heard Peter’s words received the holy spirit (Acts 10:44-46).

source​

And the second thing I want to say is that your reply is a moot point, because I never once claimed that God does not allow flesh-eating. I never claimed that flesh eating is a sin, in and of itself. I never claimed that the bible does not contain flesh eating within it. Obviously it does, as it does lots of things that are not part of God's perfect will.

So your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) seems to boil down to "We're allowed to do it." Well, no one ever said otherwise.

Just because God allows certain things in this fallen world doesn't mean it's what He WANTS us to do.

I'll repeat my main points, what I've been saying all along.

1) Eating flesh is completely unnecessary, so it boils down to people doing it simply because they want to, to satisfy their own desires.

2) Eating flesh was NOT God's original intent for mankind, as we can clearly see in Genesis 1:29.

3) Eating flesh is NOT part of God's ultimate plan, as we know that He is going to restore the Edenic world He created the beginning, and we also know there is no death, killing or suffering in heaven.

4) We are told throughout the bible to choose MERCY and love, to not put our own selfish desires first.

5) Animals were not put here for US, that is a completely anthropocentric point of view, and biblically incorrect.

6) Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, "on earth as it is in heaven."

7) God loves the animals, they are precious to him. Unlike mankind, they are completely innocent, vulnerable and voiceless.

8) Obviously our God of love, mercy and peace prefers us to choose love, mercy and peace toward the innocent, rather than needless violence and exploitation.​

So here is my question for you. In light of those points I listed, and the fact that flesh eating is a part of this fallen world, not God's perfect world or eternal plan.... should Christians try to align their actions with God's PERFECT, heavenly will.... or the worldly practices that God allows to take place in this fallen world, due to our sinful nature?

In other words, as Christians we have a CHOICE. Why choose needless killing and exploitation? Why not choose mercy, love, peace and nonviolence?

I'm sorry but I disagree with how you are interpreting these versus in the Bible. Acts 10 did two basic things in my opinion. Through Jesus, it abolished the old law that was stated in Leviticus for what was designated clean and unclean to eat and told Peter that all animals that God created are clean and lawful to eat. Arise, kill, and eat. There's only so may ways to interpret that in my opinion. It also tied into Peter being told that he should teach the gospel to all as all are equal to receive. There is really nowhere in the Bible where Jesus says you should not eat meat, in fact he instructed otherwise and taught otherwise. I would not meat if He forbid it.

I hold no ill will towards you or your life choices to abstain from meat consumption. By all means be you and rock it, but I consume meat for my nourishment, I enjoy eating meals with specific types of meat, and I'm allowed to eat it both through Jesus and through freedom. I respect your passion and your hope to change minds to fit your mindset, but the argument of this topic is basically whether or not the Bible endorses or calls for veganism, it doesn't call for it nor does it say anything against practicing it in my opinion. I understand the moral and ethical qualms people have around it, please believe me, but it's also ok for the two of us to coexist with our beliefs AND still love and follow Christ.

Sigh. You not only ignored 95% of my post, only to focus on Acts 10, but you also seem to be doing that with the Bible overall.

Please picture a scale, with reasons for Christians to eat flesh on one side….and reasons for Christians to not eat flesh on the other side. If you take the WHOLE bible into consideration: God’s original intent, God’s plan to restore His original intent, God’s repeated message of mercy, love, selflessness (as opposed to selfishness), the fact that today’s animal industries are diabolical, the fact that flesh eating is NOT healthy, and in fact certain meats are actually classified as carcinogens, the fact that animal ag is terrible for this earth which we are supposed to be taking care of instead of raping and trashing, Jesus’ “on earth as it is in heaven” teaching, and NUMEROUS other reasons which we haven’t even gotten into yet…. If you put ALL of that on a scale, and look at it, it becomes abundantly clear.

On one side of the scale you habit and personal desire (selfishness)….and on the other side you have a PLETHORA of reasons for Christians to not eat flesh, which overwhelmingly tip the scale, not only in number but in importance and validity.

Again, yes, we DO have a choice. So once again I’ll ask you the question that you ignored last time. If you can choose between exploiting and killing the innocent, or loving and being merciful to the innocent...why choose killing and selfishness over mercy and love? If you don't want to answer that, I'm not going to continue to press the point. I wouldn't want to answer it either, if I was still a flesh eater.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

I’m sorry for the delay. I appreciate your point of view and I fully respect your decision to eat how you would like. What I will say from a Biblical perspective regarding eating meat is that Acts chapter 10 ultimately sums up whether or not it’s ok to eat meat in my opinion based on scripture. The Bible allows it and our constitution does not prohibit it. The ability to coexist to where you eat how you’d like and I eat how I’d like is possible, biblical, and legal. Now, how the animals are treated in many cases I would very much agree with you on.

Thanks for the civil replies. I have two things to say. First, Acts 10 has nothing to do with permission to eat anything we want. It is not even about diet, so it's a terrible misuse of scripture to claim that it shows God approves of needless killing and selfishness.

Later in the chapter (Acts 10:28) it clearly states what it's about. I'm going to post a short article on this.

The context of this passage is Peter going onto the roof to pray and becoming hungry and falling into a deep trance. While in the trance, Peter has a vision of a sheet full of animals descending from the sky. The animals on the sheet are ones that were considered unclean according to Jewish law. Then Peter hears the voice telling him to kill and eat the animals, but Peter refuses on account of him seeing the animals as unclean.

The purpose of the vision is to show Peter that God doesn’t see any person as unclean and that salvation is not only for Jews but also for Gentiles (Romans 3:29). The meaning of the vision became clear to Peter when he went and visited Cornelius, who is a Gentile, given that Jews were forbidden to eat with Gentiles because they were seen as “unclean”. Peter explains the vision within the text when he says to Cornelius and his household, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.” (Acts 10:28).

The reason the vision makes sense and was significant is because Peter saw it as unclean to kill and eat the animals in the vision. Notice he did not kill the animals but instead preached that Jesus died for everyone, including for the Gentiles. He understood the purpose of the vision, that it had nothing to do with food and everything to do with people. This is why God did not show any sign of displeasure in Peter’s refusal to kill and eat. Peter passed God’s test, understood the vision, and fulfilled the inspired calling which had enormous significance for salvation of Gentiles. Even on that visit to the home of Cornelius, all who heard Peter’s words received the holy spirit (Acts 10:44-46).

source​

And the second thing I want to say is that your reply is a moot point, because I never once claimed that God does not allow flesh-eating. I never claimed that flesh eating is a sin, in and of itself. I never claimed that the bible does not contain flesh eating within it. Obviously it does, as it does lots of things that are not part of God's perfect will.

So your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) seems to boil down to "We're allowed to do it." Well, no one ever said otherwise.

Just because God allows certain things in this fallen world doesn't mean it's what He WANTS us to do.

I'll repeat my main points, what I've been saying all along.

1) Eating flesh is completely unnecessary, so it boils down to people doing it simply because they want to, to satisfy their own desires.

2) Eating flesh was NOT God's original intent for mankind, as we can clearly see in Genesis 1:29.

3) Eating flesh is NOT part of God's ultimate plan, as we know that He is going to restore the Edenic world He created the beginning, and we also know there is no death, killing or suffering in heaven.

4) We are told throughout the bible to choose MERCY and love, to not put our own selfish desires first.

5) Animals were not put here for US, that is a completely anthropocentric point of view, and biblically incorrect.

6) Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, "on earth as it is in heaven."

7) God loves the animals, they are precious to him. Unlike mankind, they are completely innocent, vulnerable and voiceless.

8) Obviously our God of love, mercy and peace prefers us to choose love, mercy and peace toward the innocent, rather than needless violence and exploitation.​

So here is my question for you. In light of those points I listed, and the fact that flesh eating is a part of this fallen world, not God's perfect world or eternal plan.... should Christians try to align their actions with God's PERFECT, heavenly will.... or the worldly practices that God allows to take place in this fallen world, due to our sinful nature?

In other words, as Christians we have a CHOICE. Why choose needless killing and exploitation? Why not choose mercy, love, peace and nonviolence?

I'm sorry but I disagree with how you are interpreting these versus in the Bible. Acts 10 did two basic things in my opinion. Through Jesus, it abolished the old law that was stated in Leviticus for what was designated clean and unclean to eat and told Peter that all animals that God created are clean and lawful to eat. Arise, kill, and eat. There's only so may ways to interpret that in my opinion. It also tied into Peter being told that he should teach the gospel to all as all are equal to receive. There is really nowhere in the Bible where Jesus says you should not eat meat, in fact he instructed otherwise and taught otherwise. I would not meat if He forbid it.

I hold no ill will towards you or your life choices to abstain from meat consumption. By all means be you and rock it, but I consume meat for my nourishment, I enjoy eating meals with specific types of meat, and I'm allowed to eat it both through Jesus and through freedom. I respect your passion and your hope to change minds to fit your mindset, but the argument of this topic is basically whether or not the Bible endorses or calls for veganism, it doesn't call for it nor does it say anything against practicing it in my opinion. I understand the moral and ethical qualms people have around it, please believe me, but it's also ok for the two of us to coexist with our beliefs AND still love and follow Christ.

Sigh. You not only ignored 95% of my post, only to focus on Acts 10, but you also seem to be doing that with the Bible overall.

Please picture a scale, with reasons for Christians to eat flesh on one side….and reasons for Christians to not eat flesh on the other side. If you take the WHOLE bible into consideration: God’s original intent, God’s plan to restore His original intent, God’s repeated message of mercy, love, selflessness (as opposed to selfishness), the fact that today’s animal industries are diabolical, the fact that flesh eating is NOT healthy, and in fact certain meats are actually classified as carcinogens, the fact that animal ag is terrible for this earth which we are supposed to be taking care of instead of raping and trashing, Jesus’ “on earth as it is in heaven” teaching, and NUMEROUS other reasons which we haven’t even gotten into yet…. If you put ALL of that on a scale, and look at it, it becomes abundantly clear.

On one side of the scale you habit and personal desire (selfishness)….and on the other side you have a PLETHORA of reasons for Christians to not eat flesh, which overwhelmingly tip the scale, not only in number but in importance and validity.

Again, yes, we DO have a choice. So once again I’ll ask you the question that you ignored last time. If you can choose between exploiting and killing the innocent, or loving and being merciful to the innocent...why choose killing and selfishness over mercy and love? If you don't want to answer that, I'm not going to continue to press the point. I wouldn't want to answer it either, if I was still a flesh eater.

To be fair it's not that I am ignoring 95% of your post out of apathy or spite it's just that most of your comments are subjective opinion and very strong personal life convictions that you have made for yourself and so I'm not going to change your mind on most of what you are saying. We can have different interpretations of scripture, that's completely normal in our faith, and it's also common for people to take scripture and apply it to a personal belief, political belief, ethical belief, or a personal passion even those chapters or verses don't really apply.

A vegan lifestyle is not a personal priority or passion for me as a follower of Christ and His teachings. If animal welfare is what the Lord has called on you to focus on then by all means go for it! I'm supportive of that effort. It's not a personal passion or something that I feel called to be a champion of in the same way that you are though. You have a fire inside of you that He has obviously placed and so i'm not going to try to force you away from that just to fit my own personal belief. Philippians 4:8-9 is an awesome example of you and this passion. I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying about the meat industry and the treatment of animals, but I also believe that the priorities for me fall to other ways of following Christ and living for Him.

As for your last question that you want me to answer I would say that the way you have the question worded you aren't asking a fair or objective question in my opinion. The way you have it worded makes it so that no matter how I answer it will be wrong unless I agree with how you have it worded. I don't agree with that type of question, i'm sorry. If I were to take that question and apply it something that I would prioritize regarding innocence it would be for the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year through that industry.

 

[buttercup]

To be fair it's not that I am ignoring 95% of your post out of apathy or spite it's just that most of your comments are subjective opinion and very strong personal life convictions that you have made for yourself and so I'm not going to change your mind on most of what you are saying. We can have different interpretations of scripture, that's completely normal in our faith, and it's also common for people to take scripture and apply it to a personal belief, political belief, ethical belief, or a personal passion even those chapters or verses don't really apply.

A vegan lifestyle is not a personal priority or passion for me as a follower of Christ and His teachings. If animal welfare is what the Lord has called on you to focus on then by all means go for it! I'm supportive of that effort. It's not a personal passion or something that I feel called to be a champion of in the same way that you are though. You have a fire inside of you that He has obviously placed and so i'm not going to try to force you away from that just to fit my own personal belief. Philippians 4:8-9 is an awesome example of you and this passion. I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying about the meat industry and the treatment of animals, but I also believe that the priorities for me fall to other ways of following Christ and living for Him.

As for your last question that you want me to answer I would say that the way you have the question worded you aren't asking a fair or objective question in my opinion. The way you have it worded makes it so that no matter how I answer it will be wrong unless I agree with how you have it worded. I don't agree with that type of question, i'm sorry. If I were to take that question and apply it something that I would prioritize regarding innocence it would be for the millions of unborn babies that are killed every year through that industry.

Actually, most of what I’ve said is NOT merely my opinion. I think it would be pointless to base my position on subjective opinion, so I try to always stick with facts and undeniable truths. For example, the numbered list I posted in the second half of post #83, can you point to any of those statements that are false or mere opinion, in your view?

As for different interpretations of scripture, yes, of course people have different interpretations, but most of the scriptures I base my position on are not even debated, they are generally agreed upon, by meat-eaters and vegans alike. For example, I have never heard a scholar deny that God’s original design/intent for mankind was a vegetarian diet, based on the scriptures describing the pre-fall world. And I’ve never heard anyone deny that in heaven there will be no killing, death and suffering… In other words, it is pretty hard to deny that God’s IDEAL, or perfect will, is a world of peace and harmony, non-violence and love. Not killing, exploitation, suffering or cruelty. And that has been my main point, or question – should Christians aim for God’s perfect will, or what God allows in this fallen world due to sin? To me the answer is pretty obvious.

The other thing I wanted to say in response to your latest post is… I don’t expect you to have a passion for veganism, and I actually understand where you’re coming from. I used to think that way too, for the most part. When I didn’t know any better, I believed that it was possible to eat meat that was “humanely” slaughtered. But eventually I realized that was a myth… a lie. Nothing humane happens in a slaughterhouse. There is nothing “humane” about taking what is most important to a sentient being who wants to live just as much as you and I do.

Would you want to be put in a cage, mutilated, treated like an object and then stabbed to death so someone could eat your flesh? Even with the small farm, "free range" animals, one can’t do something that is inherently cruel and then slap a “humane” label on it, which is just a marketing tactic, to make people feel better about their choices. Again, it’s a lie. (see the meme below, to think about it from another perspective.)

I don’t have a problem with people who are uninformed or genuinely blind to the reality. What DOES bother me is when people know the ugly reality, and they simply don’t care. To me, that is what is wrong with this world. Selfishness is at the root of so many problems in this world (abortion, animal exploitation/cruelty, corruption, crime, etc.) So that is what deeply disappoints me. Especially among Christians, who should be set apart from the ways of this fallen world, and should be an example to others... an example of mercy, love and peace. Sadly, the opposite is typically true. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you fall into that category. I get the feeling you sincerely haven't done the research to understand just how diabolical the animal industries are, and also that "humane slaughter" is a myth. So I give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[FredVegbarfuss]

To be fair it's not that I am ignoring 95% of your post out of apathy or spite it's just that most of your comments are subjective opinion and very strong personal life convictions that you have made for yourself.

Actually, most of what I’ve said is NOT merely my opinion. I think it would be pointless to base my position on subjective opinion, so I try to always stick with facts and undeniable truths. For example, the numbered list I posted in the second half of post #83, can you point to any of those statements that are false or mere opinion, in your view?

As for different interpretations of scripture, yes, of course people have different interpretations, but most of the scriptures I base my position on are not even debated, they are generally agreed upon, by meat-eaters and vegans alike. For example, I have never heard a scholar deny that God’s original design/intent for mankind was a vegetarian diet, based on the scriptures describing the pre-fall world. And I’ve never heard anyone deny that in heaven there will be no killing, death and suffering… In other words, it is pretty hard to deny that God’s IDEAL, or perfect will, is a world of peace and harmony, non-violence and love. Not killing, exploitation, suffering or cruelty. And that has been my main point, or question – should Christians aim for God’s perfect will, or what God allows in this fallen world due to sin? To me the answer is pretty obvious.

The other thing I wanted to say in response to your latest post is… I don’t expect you to have a passion for veganism, and I actually understand where you’re coming from. I used to think that way too, for the most part. When I didn’t know any better, I believed that it was possible to eat meat that was “humanely” slaughtered. But eventually I realized that was a myth… a lie. Nothing humane happens in a slaughterhouse. There is nothing “humane” about taking what is most important to a sentient being who wants to live just as much as you and I do.

Would you want to be put in a cage, mutilated, treated like an object and then stabbed to death so someone could eat your flesh? Even with the small farm, "free range" animals, one can’t do something that is inherently cruel and then slap a “humane” label on it, which is just a marketing tactic, to make people feel better about their choices. Again, it’s a lie. (see the meme below, to think about it from another perspective.)

I don’t have a problem with people who are uninformed or genuinely blind to the reality. What DOES bother me is when people know the ugly reality, and they simply don’t care. To me, that is what is wrong with this world. Selfishness is at the root of so many problems in this world (abortion, animal exploitation/cruelty, corruption, crime, etc.) So that is what deeply disappoints me. Especially among Christians, who should be set apart from the ways of this fallen world, and should be an example to others... an example of mercy, love and peace. Sadly, the opposite is typically true. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you fall into that category. I get the feeling you sincerely haven't done the research to understand just how diabolical the animal industries are, and also that "humane slaughter" is a myth. So I give you the benefit of the doubt.

It certainly is not subjective to say the design from God, shown in the Bible, is provision for us without meat from animals, and that this was perfect from God, who called it "Very good". It will also be what creation is returned to, with just the redeemed from humanity, shown in Biblical prophecy.

It is in fact shown in modern times that whole food that is plant-based is best for us.