Veganism and the Bible

[RodISHI]

You want to be vegan by all means do so but if you try to push that as an agenda using the Bible I will call you on it if I so desire.

I don't really care what people do. Just so long as I'm not forced to equally do the same. But she's right about the way people proof-text the bible instead of looking at it as a whole.

And you can call me out whenever you want. People who go looking for a fight are never really as much of a problem as those who are ready for one.

You are the one that made a claim about me while professing you are in agreement with Buttercup without knowing shit from shinola there bud.

 

[Natural Citizen]

You are the one that made a claim about me while professing you are in agreement with Buttercup without knowing shit from shinola there bud.

No, you were proof-texting in order to support your personal indulgences. And that's fine. Do what you want. It's wasn't a claim. All anyone has to do is look.

In fact, we can completely remove diet from the equation and I'd tell you the same thing.

As far as not knowing shit from shinola, I know that proof-texting is fairly common among secular folk who want to act one way in their personal lives and then turn around and front like they're something they're not when it comes to blending in with the faithful folk. There's a reason the pews are thinning out these days if you really wanna go into it.

 

[RodISHI]

You are the one that made a claim about me while professing you are in agreement with Buttercup without knowing shit from shinola there bud.

No, you were proof-texting in order to support your personal indulgences. And that's fine. Do what you want. It's wasn't a claim. All anyone has to do is look.

In fact, we can completely remove diet from the equation and I'd tell you the same thing.

As far as not knowing shit from shinola, I know that proof-texting is fairly common among secular folk who want to act one way in their personal lives and then turn around and front like they're something they're not when it comes to blending in with the faithful folk. There's a reason the pews are thinning out these days if you really wanna go into it.

No I was providing scripture of Jesus's words for understanding that it doesn't matter what you eat to sustain the flesh body as it all turns into shit. It was merely your assumption that I was attempting to justify what you claim are my personal indulgences. Which by the way is merely presumptuous crap on your part as you do not know me, who I am, my personal preferences or my personal habits anymore than I know you and yours.

The churches are thinning out because its is that time where carnal precepts are going the way of the dinosaur and this is seasons end. People are waking up and being shown that way too many people are and have been preaching for and from their own point of views. The people of faith I have encountered from various religions don't really want to hear/feed from moldy stale bread and sour milk from presumptuous guessers.

 

[buttercup]

Your conclusion is very wrong. Like most avid meat-eaters who point to specific bible verses, you are starting off with your preconceived position and then working backwards to find scriptures that you believe justify it. When it comes to any topic, for Christians we need to look at the bible as a whole, not search for specific scriptures that appear to justify whatever it is one is arguing.

It seems very clear to me that that is exactly what you have been doing—selectively cherry-picking a few scattered verses out of the Bible that can be twisted to support vegetarianism, while ignoring many, many others, that refute your view on the subject.

That is demonstrably untrue. I'm looking at the BIG picture and the totality of commands and teachings in the bible. We went over this on the other thread, but you continually ignored all the most important points.

You ignore God's original intent for all of creation, which was peace and harmony, and a 100% plantbased diet.

You ignore God's plan to restore that peace and harmony that existed in the beginning. And He WILL do that.

You ignore God's ideal, which we also know by how heaven is described. God's ideal is no killing or suffering or cruelty.

You ignore that Jesus taught us to want and pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

You ignore the countless scriptures commanding us to have MERCY, to love and to be kind and to seek peace, as much as it is within our power.

You ignore the fact that your entire position is based on the result of SIN, in this fallen world, and not God's intent for mankind, or perfect will.

Instead of looking at the bigger picture, you and others like you try to justify your position which exalts the ways of this fallen world by searching for specific scriptures and loopholes, instead of doing sincere, genuine soul-searching, seeking GOD and learning about how GOD feels about billions of His precious creations being needlessly exploited, terrorized and brutally slaughtered for humanity's own selfish reasons.

So your comment is completely backwards.

No I ignore you and your ridiculous precepts, I ignore your confusion and your agenda based crap. That was done in an attempt to have mercy on you because you are one ignorant prideful deceitful little snot that does not know that the shit you are pushing is nasty and not in truth at all when it comes to knowing what will transpire or what has transpired when anyone stands in the presence of the throne of God. You talked about heaven but you haven't a clue. Have you been there? Have you actually stood in the presence of God? No you haven't but you sure do think you have a right to judge others and twist the Word to meet your agenda based crap.

You want to seek God then you better start examining yourself first. I care more what happens to the people that those animals feed than the animals. I never said anyone should be cruel to them or that they should not be care for in a humane manner while they are being raised to feed the people that I like to see fed.

I read my husband what you wrote and he was in full agreement with me "she's whacko" but he added some other words in that to describe you and told me to respond to you in such a manner but I declined and attempted to be as kind as possible instead but that isn't good enough for you.

People and animals again both eat meat. Too bad you don't like that but that is the way creation was created to be here in this world; and it will remain that away here in this world.

Take your carnal precepts and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. That means you have several choices of where to put them.

1. That post was to Bob, not you. The fact that you quickly took it as if it was directed to you is telling. It clearly touched a nerve. Also, that post to him was not out of the blue, there’s a context behind it which you seem to be unaware of. On another thread on veganism, Bob and I were posting back and forth, and on the other thread he continually ignored all the points I brought up, and only responded in a juvenile, attacking way. THAT is why I posted that to him.
   
   
2. Your emotional, vicious, mean-spirited and hateful reply just shows that you don’t have a strong position. In any debate, when someone has truth and logic on their side, they don’t need to resort to vicious ad hominem attacks on others.
   
   
3. You did not refute ANYTHING I said. If your position was strong, then it should be easy to refute the things I’ve said, but you have not, instead you just lash out at me angrily, like a feral dog who thinks someone is trying to steal his food, snarling and growling in a vicious, defensive way.
   
   
4. Like Bob, you don’t even seem to understand what my position is. I didn’t even say that flesh eating was a sin. I also never claimed that man was not permitted to eat flesh. So what did I say that you think is false? Be specific.
   
   
5. You said what I'm "pushing" is "nasty" and "shit" but my position boils down to MERCY, love, kindness and nonviolence toward the innocent and defenseless. If those things are "nasty shit" to you, then that says a lot about you.
   
   
6. Your statement that creation was created to be this way is flatly and demonstrably false. Do you not understand that this is a FALLEN world? Do you not understand that when God first created this world, it was a very different place, as the bible clearly shows in Genesis 1 and 2? There was peace and harmony in the very beginning. God gave us a 100% plant-based diet, not only to humans but to ALL of creation.
   
   So for you to say that the way things are now is the way they were created to be is either entirely biblically ignorant, or dishonest. That is an accepted fact among anyone who is even remotely familiar with the Bible, and one that I have not seen anyone deny.
   
   
7. You stated that I don't have a clue about heaven, the implication being that I'm wrong about there being no flesh eating in heaven. Is that what you believe? Do you honestly think there is going to be killing, death and eating of dead bodies in heaven?
   
   I'm sorry but that goes directly against a number of verses including Revelation 21: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Also Isaiah 25: 8 "He will destroy death forever..." 1 Cor 15:54, and many others.
   
   If you're planning to be in heaven, you might want to be prepared for a world where there is no longer any killing, suffering, death and exploitation. One way to do that is to no longer participate in those things NOW. That's just a suggestion though! Do what you want, you have free will. You will be accountable to God though, for everything you do.
   
   
8. Lastly, you said that you don’t support cruelty to animals and you said something about doing things "humanely." I will give you grace for this one because it’s clear that you haven’t done any research. It’s clear that you have not actually looked at what takes place behind closed doors. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are saying these things out of sincere ignorance and not out of dishonesty. Because the truth of the matter is, the humane myth is just that - a myth. Nothing humane happens in a slaughterhouse.
   
   If you genuinely care to know the truth, I can prove that to you. You have believed a lie, it is as simple as that. Having said that, it is YOU who has to eventually come to the realization that by paying for flesh and other animal products, you are paying for abuse, exploitation and cruelty.
   
   My position is that as Christians, we have a CHOICE. We can choose to love and have mercy on the innocent and defenseless ... or we can choose to use them selfishly, for our own desires. Since eating flesh and using animal products is completely unnecessary (contrary to your incorrect, outdated ideas, there is zero nutritional need to eat flesh) and since we know that this was not God‘s original intent and is not God‘s perfect will... then the better and more right thing to do is to NOT support that cruelty, violence and needless killing of the innocent, solely for our own selfish desires.
   
   I think that is a reasonable position for a practicing Christian to hold, a Christian who wants to honor God’s perfect will and wants to be a loving and merciful person. To avoid any misrepresenting of my position, I never said that this should be mandatory, of course we all have free will and can choose to do what we want.
   
   If you disagree, we can agree to disagree. But you have not shown how my position is wrong, you have not shown how your position is right, you have not done anything except post a few misapplied passages and then personally attack me in the most vicious, ugly mean-spirited way.
   
   But I forgive you. I get your anger. I didn't like veganism or vegans either, before I went vegan. I argued my head off with them, just as many here do. I told them I would NEVER go vegan. But eventually, truth, facts, logic and ethics won out, over my pre-existing ideas that were based on lack of knowledge. That is the same case with all people who go vegan, they don't want to at first, but once they do, it turns out to be one of the best decisions they ever made. The only regret is not doing it sooner.

 

[Likkmee]

1 Timothy 4:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

 

[Likkmee]

In Genesis, God only allowed Adam and Eve to eat meat after the fall of man, prior to that, he offered them only the fruits of the trees.

Some have used this as a Christian case for veganism - what are your thoughts?

Irrelevant. Yeshua came to cancel the death consequences of Eve and Adams fuckups and clarify what His Father wanted to be occurring.
No.I did not "swear", unless you worship your slavemasters and the shadows of their flags.

No carpenter ever hit his thumb and didn't utter (or scream)" that shit hurts like a motherfucker".
Only a fool yells GD~It/ ahead of a VERY true statement.

 

[buttercup]

1 Timothy 4:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

We already went over that on the other thread. The word translated as "meats" (which is only in the KJV) in the original language is simply "food." There is an entirely different word for flesh.

At that time there were religious sects that promoted strict ascetic practices like ceremonial fasting as necessary for salvation. So it is wrong to use this as a verse against veganism, and wrong on a number of levels, as it is basically calling God's original intent (Gen 1:29-30) and future plan (Is 11:6-9) evil.

Again, some of you are searching out specific scriptures to try to justify the status quo, and you're looking for loopholes. That is not a mindset Christians should have, searching for excuses to continue supporting cruelty and exploitation when it is completely unnecessary. Not only that, it makes ALL Christians look bad and turns people away from God, as many secular vegetarians and vegans look at meat-eating Christians and think that we are all selfish, callous people who support unnecessary violence. And they think OUR God approves of that, which causes a stumbling block for people we should be trying to reach.

 

[Likkmee]

KJV Keyword : ALL

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

In Genesis, God only allowed Adam and Eve to eat meat after the fall of man

Where does it say THAT!

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

1 Timothy 4:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

All other translations have a form of this:

who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth

 

[Questioner]

In Genesis, God only allowed Adam and Eve to eat meat after the fall of man

Where does it say THAT!

In Genesis, before the fall of man, God only mentioned the fruit of the trees.

After the fall, he offered them meat.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

In Genesis, God only allowed Adam and Eve to eat meat after the fall of man

Where does it say THAT!

In Genesis, before the fall of man, God only mentioned the fruit of the trees.

After the fall, he offered them meat.

It NOWHERE says they were only allowed to eat carrion. I asked where you read that. Please quote it if you find it (hint: it ain't there)

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

In Genesis, God only allowed Adam and Eve to eat meat after the fall of man, prior to that, he offered them only the fruits of the trees.

Some have used this as a Christian case for veganism - what are your thoughts?

That diet was given when Adam and Eve where in the Garden of Eden.

Actually we are not living in the Garden of Eden.

You choose to live as "gods" on this earth or as "devils." It is the choice God has given Man since Adam and Eve

 

[Flopper]

In Genesis, God only allowed Adam and Eve to eat meat after the fall of man, prior to that, he offered them only the fruits of the trees.

Some have used this as a Christian case for veganism - what are your thoughts?

Did you mean veganism and/or vegetarianism. There are major differences.

 

[buttercup]

In Genesis, God only allowed Adam and Eve to eat meat after the fall of man

Where does it say THAT!

In Genesis, before the fall of man, God only mentioned the fruit of the trees.

After the fall, he offered them meat.

Actually, it was after the flood, not the fall, when the diet of man changed. The flood was many centuries later, so for a very long time humans ate a plant-based diet.

Another factor (which is a controversial and complex topic, and probably too much for this thread) is the fallen angels and the Nephlim (giants) as written about in Genesis 6. According to the book of Enoch, flesh eating originated with them. Which basically means that flesh eating has a demonic origin. It is possible that there was flesh eating before the flood, because of the chaos and violence that existed in the world at that time. But at that time it was not allowed by God, not until after the FLOOD. And even that - at least in the way it's understood currently - is debatable, but that is another topic.

 

[buttercup]

KJV Keyword : ALL

By that logic, cannibalism would be fine. Again, when you look at the context, there were religious groups at that time with false ideas, such as the idea that matter (the material world) was evil. THAT mindset is not biblical, and what Paul seems to be condemning. What he said in verse 4 was with THAT context in mind, I don't believe he is saying that literally anything God created we can eat as long as we say thank you. But even if he WAS (which I don't agree he was, but for the sake of argument) we still have a CHOICE... either to treat the innocent and defenseless with love and mercy.... or to use them to satisfy our own selfish desires. I prefer mercy and love. I believe God does too.

 

[RodISHI]

Your conclusion is very wrong. Like most avid meat-eaters who point to specific bible verses, you are starting off with your preconceived position and then working backwards to find scriptures that you believe justify it. When it comes to any topic, for Christians we need to look at the bible as a whole, not search for specific scriptures that appear to justify whatever it is one is arguing.

It seems very clear to me that that is exactly what you have been doing—selectively cherry-picking a few scattered verses out of the Bible that can be twisted to support vegetarianism, while ignoring many, many others, that refute your view on the subject.

That is demonstrably untrue. I'm looking at the BIG picture and the totality of commands and teachings in the bible. We went over this on the other thread, but you continually ignored all the most important points.

You ignore God's original intent for all of creation, which was peace and harmony, and a 100% plantbased diet.

You ignore God's plan to restore that peace and harmony that existed in the beginning. And He WILL do that.

You ignore God's ideal, which we also know by how heaven is described. God's ideal is no killing or suffering or cruelty.

You ignore that Jesus taught us to want and pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

You ignore the countless scriptures commanding us to have MERCY, to love and to be kind and to seek peace, as much as it is within our power.

You ignore the fact that your entire position is based on the result of SIN, in this fallen world, and not God's intent for mankind, or perfect will.

Instead of looking at the bigger picture, you and others like you try to justify your position which exalts the ways of this fallen world by searching for specific scriptures and loopholes, instead of doing sincere, genuine soul-searching, seeking GOD and learning about how GOD feels about billions of His precious creations being needlessly exploited, terrorized and brutally slaughtered for humanity's own selfish reasons.

So your comment is completely backwards.

No I ignore you and your ridiculous precepts, I ignore your confusion and your agenda based crap. That was done in an attempt to have mercy on you because you are one ignorant prideful deceitful little snot that does not know that the shit you are pushing is nasty and not in truth at all when it comes to knowing what will transpire or what has transpired when anyone stands in the presence of the throne of God. You talked about heaven but you haven't a clue. Have you been there? Have you actually stood in the presence of God? No you haven't but you sure do think you have a right to judge others and twist the Word to meet your agenda based crap.

You want to seek God then you better start examining yourself first. I care more what happens to the people that those animals feed than the animals. I never said anyone should be cruel to them or that they should not be care for in a humane manner while they are being raised to feed the people that I like to see fed.

I read my husband what you wrote and he was in full agreement with me "she's whacko" but he added some other words in that to describe you and told me to respond to you in such a manner but I declined and attempted to be as kind as possible instead but that isn't good enough for you.

People and animals again both eat meat. Too bad you don't like that but that is the way creation was created to be here in this world; and it will remain that away here in this world.

Take your carnal precepts and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. That means you have several choices of where to put them.

1. That post was to Bob, not you. The fact that you quickly took it as if it was directed to you is telling. It clearly touched a nerve. Also, that post to him was not out of the blue, there’s a context behind it which you seem to be unaware of. On another thread on veganism, Bob and I were posting back and forth, and on the other thread he continually ignored all the points I brought up, and only responded in a juvenile, attacking way. THAT is why I posted that to him.
   
   
2. Your emotional, vicious, mean-spirited and hateful reply just shows that you don’t have a strong position. In any debate, when someone has truth and logic on their side, they don’t need to resort to vicious ad hominem attacks on others.
   
   
3. You did not refute ANYTHING I said. If your position was strong, then it should be easy to refute the things I’ve said, but you have not, instead you just lash out at me angrily, like a feral dog who thinks someone is trying to steal his food, snarling and growling in a vicious, defensive way.
   
   
4. Like Bob, you don’t even seem to understand what my position is. I didn’t even say that flesh eating was a sin. I also never claimed that man was not permitted to eat flesh. So what did I say that you think is false? Be specific.
   
   
5. You said what I'm "pushing" is "nasty" and "shit" but my position boils down to MERCY, love, kindness and nonviolence toward the innocent and defenseless. If those things are "nasty shit" to you, then that says a lot about you.
   
   
6. Your statement that creation was created to be this way is flatly and demonstrably false. Do you not understand that this is a FALLEN world? Do you not understand that when God first created this world, it was a very different place, as the bible clearly shows in Genesis 1 and 2? There was peace and harmony in the very beginning. God gave us a 100% plant-based diet, not only to humans but to ALL of creation.
   
   So for you to say that the way things are now is the way they were created to be is either entirely biblically ignorant, or dishonest. That is an accepted fact among anyone who is even remotely familiar with the Bible, and one that I have not seen anyone deny.
   
   
7. You stated that I don't have a clue about heaven, the implication being that I'm wrong about there being no flesh eating in heaven. Is that what you believe? Do you honestly think there is going to be killing, death and eating of dead bodies in heaven?
   
   I'm sorry but that goes directly against a number of verses including Revelation 21: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Also Isaiah 25: 8 "He will destroy death forever..." 1 Cor 15:54, and many others.
   
   If you're planning to be in heaven, you might want to be prepared for a world where there is no longer any killing, suffering, death and exploitation. One way to do that is to no longer participate in those things NOW. That's just a suggestion though! Do what you want, you have free will. You will be accountable to God though, for everything you do.
   
   
8. Lastly, you said that you don’t support cruelty to animals and you said something about doing things "humanely." I will give you grace for this one because it’s clear that you haven’t done any research. It’s clear that you have not actually looked at what takes place behind closed doors. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are saying these things out of sincere ignorance and not out of dishonesty. Because the truth of the matter is, the humane myth is just that - a myth. Nothing humane happens in a slaughterhouse.
   
   If you genuinely care to know the truth, I can prove that to you. You have believed a lie, it is as simple as that. Having said that, it is YOU who has to eventually come to the realization that by paying for flesh and other animal products, you are paying for abuse, exploitation and cruelty.
   
   My position is that as Christians, we have a CHOICE. We can choose to love and have mercy on the innocent and defenseless ... or we can choose to use them selfishly, for our own desires. Since eating flesh and using animal products is completely unnecessary (contrary to your incorrect, outdated ideas, there is zero nutritional need to eat flesh) and since we know that this was not God‘s original intent and is not God‘s perfect will... then the better and more right thing to do is to NOT support that cruelty, violence and needless killing of the innocent, solely for our own selfish desires.
   
   I think that is a reasonable position for a practicing Christian to hold, a Christian who wants to honor God’s perfect will and wants to be a loving and merciful person. To avoid any misrepresenting of my position, I never said that this should be mandatory, of course we all have free will and can choose to do what we want.
   
   If you disagree, we can agree to disagree. But you have not shown how my position is wrong, you have not shown how your position is right, you have not done anything except post a few misapplied passages and then personally attack me in the most vicious, ugly mean-spirited way.
   
   But I forgive you. I get your anger. I didn't like veganism or vegans either, before I went vegan. I argued my head off with them, just as many here do. I told them I would NEVER go vegan. But eventually, truth, facts, logic and ethics won out, over my pre-existing ideas that were based on lack of knowledge. That is the same case with all people who go vegan, they don't want to at first, but once they do, it turns out to be one of the best decisions they ever made. The only regret is not doing it sooner.

You blather on a whole lot and for claiming to be a christian why do you ignore the words of warning about claiming who will enter into heaven or go down to hell as to say you can bring Christ down to hell or lift yourself up to heaven? I have posted in scripture where you are in error but you keep ignoring scripture and you keep making presumptions claims base on your own thoughts and desires and spirit of error desiring others who refute you will be judged unworthy to enter into the kingdom of heaven before God just because you thought it over and came to a conclusion that they will be in judgment some how because you think that they will be based on what they eat. Again I think more of the people that meat feeds than I think of your erroneous precepts.

I know where I come from and where I will go when my term is up here in this world. I also know where I have already entered in whereas you know not. I need no forgiveness from you and your demons of error.

 

[buttercup]

Your conclusion is very wrong. Like most avid meat-eaters who point to specific bible verses, you are starting off with your preconceived position and then working backwards to find scriptures that you believe justify it. When it comes to any topic, for Christians we need to look at the bible as a whole, not search for specific scriptures that appear to justify whatever it is one is arguing.

It seems very clear to me that that is exactly what you have been doing—selectively cherry-picking a few scattered verses out of the Bible that can be twisted to support vegetarianism, while ignoring many, many others, that refute your view on the subject.

That is demonstrably untrue. I'm looking at the BIG picture and the totality of commands and teachings in the bible. We went over this on the other thread, but you continually ignored all the most important points.

You ignore God's original intent for all of creation, which was peace and harmony, and a 100% plantbased diet.

You ignore God's plan to restore that peace and harmony that existed in the beginning. And He WILL do that.

You ignore God's ideal, which we also know by how heaven is described. God's ideal is no killing or suffering or cruelty.

You ignore that Jesus taught us to want and pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

You ignore the countless scriptures commanding us to have MERCY, to love and to be kind and to seek peace, as much as it is within our power.

You ignore the fact that your entire position is based on the result of SIN, in this fallen world, and not God's intent for mankind, or perfect will.

Instead of looking at the bigger picture, you and others like you try to justify your position which exalts the ways of this fallen world by searching for specific scriptures and loopholes, instead of doing sincere, genuine soul-searching, seeking GOD and learning about how GOD feels about billions of His precious creations being needlessly exploited, terrorized and brutally slaughtered for humanity's own selfish reasons.

So your comment is completely backwards.

No I ignore you and your ridiculous precepts, I ignore your confusion and your agenda based crap. That was done in an attempt to have mercy on you because you are one ignorant prideful deceitful little snot that does not know that the shit you are pushing is nasty and not in truth at all when it comes to knowing what will transpire or what has transpired when anyone stands in the presence of the throne of God. You talked about heaven but you haven't a clue. Have you been there? Have you actually stood in the presence of God? No you haven't but you sure do think you have a right to judge others and twist the Word to meet your agenda based crap.

You want to seek God then you better start examining yourself first. I care more what happens to the people that those animals feed than the animals. I never said anyone should be cruel to them or that they should not be care for in a humane manner while they are being raised to feed the people that I like to see fed.

I read my husband what you wrote and he was in full agreement with me "she's whacko" but he added some other words in that to describe you and told me to respond to you in such a manner but I declined and attempted to be as kind as possible instead but that isn't good enough for you.

People and animals again both eat meat. Too bad you don't like that but that is the way creation was created to be here in this world; and it will remain that away here in this world.

Take your carnal precepts and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. That means you have several choices of where to put them.

1. That post was to Bob, not you. The fact that you quickly took it as if it was directed to you is telling. It clearly touched a nerve. Also, that post to him was not out of the blue, there’s a context behind it which you seem to be unaware of. On another thread on veganism, Bob and I were posting back and forth, and on the other thread he continually ignored all the points I brought up, and only responded in a juvenile, attacking way. THAT is why I posted that to him.
   
   
2. Your emotional, vicious, mean-spirited and hateful reply just shows that you don’t have a strong position. In any debate, when someone has truth and logic on their side, they don’t need to resort to vicious ad hominem attacks on others.
   
   
3. You did not refute ANYTHING I said. If your position was strong, then it should be easy to refute the things I’ve said, but you have not, instead you just lash out at me angrily, like a feral dog who thinks someone is trying to steal his food, snarling and growling in a vicious, defensive way.
   
   
4. Like Bob, you don’t even seem to understand what my position is. I didn’t even say that flesh eating was a sin. I also never claimed that man was not permitted to eat flesh. So what did I say that you think is false? Be specific.
   
   
5. You said what I'm "pushing" is "nasty" and "shit" but my position boils down to MERCY, love, kindness and nonviolence toward the innocent and defenseless. If those things are "nasty shit" to you, then that says a lot about you.
   
   
6. Your statement that creation was created to be this way is flatly and demonstrably false. Do you not understand that this is a FALLEN world? Do you not understand that when God first created this world, it was a very different place, as the bible clearly shows in Genesis 1 and 2? There was peace and harmony in the very beginning. God gave us a 100% plant-based diet, not only to humans but to ALL of creation.
   
   So for you to say that the way things are now is the way they were created to be is either entirely biblically ignorant, or dishonest. That is an accepted fact among anyone who is even remotely familiar with the Bible, and one that I have not seen anyone deny.
   
   
7. You stated that I don't have a clue about heaven, the implication being that I'm wrong about there being no flesh eating in heaven. Is that what you believe? Do you honestly think there is going to be killing, death and eating of dead bodies in heaven?
   
   I'm sorry but that goes directly against a number of verses including Revelation 21: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Also Isaiah 25: 8 "He will destroy death forever..." 1 Cor 15:54, and many others.
   
   If you're planning to be in heaven, you might want to be prepared for a world where there is no longer any killing, suffering, death and exploitation. One way to do that is to no longer participate in those things NOW. That's just a suggestion though! Do what you want, you have free will. You will be accountable to God though, for everything you do.
   
   
8. Lastly, you said that you don’t support cruelty to animals and you said something about doing things "humanely." I will give you grace for this one because it’s clear that you haven’t done any research. It’s clear that you have not actually looked at what takes place behind closed doors. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are saying these things out of sincere ignorance and not out of dishonesty. Because the truth of the matter is, the humane myth is just that - a myth. Nothing humane happens in a slaughterhouse.
   
   If you genuinely care to know the truth, I can prove that to you. You have believed a lie, it is as simple as that. Having said that, it is YOU who has to eventually come to the realization that by paying for flesh and other animal products, you are paying for abuse, exploitation and cruelty.
   
   My position is that as Christians, we have a CHOICE. We can choose to love and have mercy on the innocent and defenseless ... or we can choose to use them selfishly, for our own desires. Since eating flesh and using animal products is completely unnecessary (contrary to your incorrect, outdated ideas, there is zero nutritional need to eat flesh) and since we know that this was not God‘s original intent and is not God‘s perfect will... then the better and more right thing to do is to NOT support that cruelty, violence and needless killing of the innocent, solely for our own selfish desires.
   
   I think that is a reasonable position for a practicing Christian to hold, a Christian who wants to honor God’s perfect will and wants to be a loving and merciful person. To avoid any misrepresenting of my position, I never said that this should be mandatory, of course we all have free will and can choose to do what we want.
   
   If you disagree, we can agree to disagree. But you have not shown how my position is wrong, you have not shown how your position is right, you have not done anything except post a few misapplied passages and then personally attack me in the most vicious, ugly mean-spirited way.
   
   But I forgive you. I get your anger. I didn't like veganism or vegans either, before I went vegan. I argued my head off with them, just as many here do. I told them I would NEVER go vegan. But eventually, truth, facts, logic and ethics won out, over my pre-existing ideas that were based on lack of knowledge. That is the same case with all people who go vegan, they don't want to at first, but once they do, it turns out to be one of the best decisions they ever made. The only regret is not doing it sooner.

You blather on a whole lot and for claiming to be a christian why do you ignore the words of warning about claiming who will enter into heaven or go down to hell as to say you can bring Christ down to hell or lift yourself up to heaven? I have posted in scripture where you are in error but you keep ignoring scripture and you keep making presumptions claims base on your own thoughts and desires and spirit of error desiring others who refute you will be judged unworthy to enter into the kingdom of heaven before God just because you thought it over and came to a conclusion that they will be in judgment some how because you think that they will be based on what they eat. Again I think more of the people that meat feeds than I think of your erroneous precepts.

I know where I come from and where I will go when my term is up here in this world. I also know where I have already entered in whereas you know not. I need no forgiveness from you and your demons of error.

What are you even talking about? I never said anything about who will go to heaven or won't. That is a blatantly false accusation. I said that if you are planning to go to heaven, then it's probably a good idea to be prepared for it.

I never once said or even THOUGHT that anyone would be unworthy of heaven based on this topic, not even close. So either you have terrible reading comprehension, or you simply like to put words in my mouth.

Salvation has nothing to do with this topic. Salvation is about being born again. It's about being saved by God's grace, through faith.

It's becoming more and more clear that you just don't get my position, at all. You think you do, but you don't. Either that or you are purposely misrepresenting my position, for whatever reason.

And you still have not refuted anything I have said, or pointed out anything specific I have said that you believe is false.

 

[RodISHI]

It seems very clear to me that that is exactly what you have been doing—selectively cherry-picking a few scattered verses out of the Bible that can be twisted to support vegetarianism, while ignoring many, many others, that refute your view on the subject.

That is demonstrably untrue. I'm looking at the BIG picture and the totality of commands and teachings in the bible. We went over this on the other thread, but you continually ignored all the most important points.

You ignore God's original intent for all of creation, which was peace and harmony, and a 100% plantbased diet.

You ignore God's plan to restore that peace and harmony that existed in the beginning. And He WILL do that.

You ignore God's ideal, which we also know by how heaven is described. God's ideal is no killing or suffering or cruelty.

You ignore that Jesus taught us to want and pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

You ignore the countless scriptures commanding us to have MERCY, to love and to be kind and to seek peace, as much as it is within our power.

You ignore the fact that your entire position is based on the result of SIN, in this fallen world, and not God's intent for mankind, or perfect will.

Instead of looking at the bigger picture, you and others like you try to justify your position which exalts the ways of this fallen world by searching for specific scriptures and loopholes, instead of doing sincere, genuine soul-searching, seeking GOD and learning about how GOD feels about billions of His precious creations being needlessly exploited, terrorized and brutally slaughtered for humanity's own selfish reasons.

So your comment is completely backwards.

No I ignore you and your ridiculous precepts, I ignore your confusion and your agenda based crap. That was done in an attempt to have mercy on you because you are one ignorant prideful deceitful little snot that does not know that the shit you are pushing is nasty and not in truth at all when it comes to knowing what will transpire or what has transpired when anyone stands in the presence of the throne of God. You talked about heaven but you haven't a clue. Have you been there? Have you actually stood in the presence of God? No you haven't but you sure do think you have a right to judge others and twist the Word to meet your agenda based crap.

You want to seek God then you better start examining yourself first. I care more what happens to the people that those animals feed than the animals. I never said anyone should be cruel to them or that they should not be care for in a humane manner while they are being raised to feed the people that I like to see fed.

I read my husband what you wrote and he was in full agreement with me "she's whacko" but he added some other words in that to describe you and told me to respond to you in such a manner but I declined and attempted to be as kind as possible instead but that isn't good enough for you.

People and animals again both eat meat. Too bad you don't like that but that is the way creation was created to be here in this world; and it will remain that away here in this world.

Take your carnal precepts and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. That means you have several choices of where to put them.

1. That post was to Bob, not you. The fact that you quickly took it as if it was directed to you is telling. It clearly touched a nerve. Also, that post to him was not out of the blue, there’s a context behind it which you seem to be unaware of. On another thread on veganism, Bob and I were posting back and forth, and on the other thread he continually ignored all the points I brought up, and only responded in a juvenile, attacking way. THAT is why I posted that to him.
   
   
2. Your emotional, vicious, mean-spirited and hateful reply just shows that you don’t have a strong position. In any debate, when someone has truth and logic on their side, they don’t need to resort to vicious ad hominem attacks on others.
   
   
3. You did not refute ANYTHING I said. If your position was strong, then it should be easy to refute the things I’ve said, but you have not, instead you just lash out at me angrily, like a feral dog who thinks someone is trying to steal his food, snarling and growling in a vicious, defensive way.
   
   
4. Like Bob, you don’t even seem to understand what my position is. I didn’t even say that flesh eating was a sin. I also never claimed that man was not permitted to eat flesh. So what did I say that you think is false? Be specific.
   
   
5. You said what I'm "pushing" is "nasty" and "shit" but my position boils down to MERCY, love, kindness and nonviolence toward the innocent and defenseless. If those things are "nasty shit" to you, then that says a lot about you.
   
   
6. Your statement that creation was created to be this way is flatly and demonstrably false. Do you not understand that this is a FALLEN world? Do you not understand that when God first created this world, it was a very different place, as the bible clearly shows in Genesis 1 and 2? There was peace and harmony in the very beginning. God gave us a 100% plant-based diet, not only to humans but to ALL of creation.
   
   So for you to say that the way things are now is the way they were created to be is either entirely biblically ignorant, or dishonest. That is an accepted fact among anyone who is even remotely familiar with the Bible, and one that I have not seen anyone deny.
   
   
7. You stated that I don't have a clue about heaven, the implication being that I'm wrong about there being no flesh eating in heaven. Is that what you believe? Do you honestly think there is going to be killing, death and eating of dead bodies in heaven?
   
   I'm sorry but that goes directly against a number of verses including Revelation 21: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Also Isaiah 25: 8 "He will destroy death forever..." 1 Cor 15:54, and many others.
   
   If you're planning to be in heaven, you might want to be prepared for a world where there is no longer any killing, suffering, death and exploitation. One way to do that is to no longer participate in those things NOW. That's just a suggestion though! Do what you want, you have free will. You will be accountable to God though, for everything you do.
   
   
8. Lastly, you said that you don’t support cruelty to animals and you said something about doing things "humanely." I will give you grace for this one because it’s clear that you haven’t done any research. It’s clear that you have not actually looked at what takes place behind closed doors. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are saying these things out of sincere ignorance and not out of dishonesty. Because the truth of the matter is, the humane myth is just that - a myth. Nothing humane happens in a slaughterhouse.
   
   If you genuinely care to know the truth, I can prove that to you. You have believed a lie, it is as simple as that. Having said that, it is YOU who has to eventually come to the realization that by paying for flesh and other animal products, you are paying for abuse, exploitation and cruelty.
   
   My position is that as Christians, we have a CHOICE. We can choose to love and have mercy on the innocent and defenseless ... or we can choose to use them selfishly, for our own desires. Since eating flesh and using animal products is completely unnecessary (contrary to your incorrect, outdated ideas, there is zero nutritional need to eat flesh) and since we know that this was not God‘s original intent and is not God‘s perfect will... then the better and more right thing to do is to NOT support that cruelty, violence and needless killing of the innocent, solely for our own selfish desires.
   
   I think that is a reasonable position for a practicing Christian to hold, a Christian who wants to honor God’s perfect will and wants to be a loving and merciful person. To avoid any misrepresenting of my position, I never said that this should be mandatory, of course we all have free will and can choose to do what we want.
   
   If you disagree, we can agree to disagree. But you have not shown how my position is wrong, you have not shown how your position is right, you have not done anything except post a few misapplied passages and then personally attack me in the most vicious, ugly mean-spirited way.
   
   But I forgive you. I get your anger. I didn't like veganism or vegans either, before I went vegan. I argued my head off with them, just as many here do. I told them I would NEVER go vegan. But eventually, truth, facts, logic and ethics won out, over my pre-existing ideas that were based on lack of knowledge. That is the same case with all people who go vegan, they don't want to at first, but once they do, it turns out to be one of the best decisions they ever made. The only regret is not doing it sooner.

You blather on a whole lot and for claiming to be a christian why do you ignore the words of warning about claiming who will enter into heaven or go down to hell as to say you can bring Christ down to hell or lift yourself up to heaven? I have posted in scripture where you are in error but you keep ignoring scripture and you keep making presumptions claims base on your own thoughts and desires and spirit of error desiring others who refute you will be judged unworthy to enter into the kingdom of heaven before God just because you thought it over and came to a conclusion that they will be in judgment some how because you think that they will be based on what they eat. Again I think more of the people that meat feeds than I think of your erroneous precepts.

I know where I come from and where I will go when my term is up here in this world. I also know where I have already entered in whereas you know not. I need no forgiveness from you and your demons of error.

What are you even talking about? I never said anything about who will go to heaven or won't. That is a blatantly false accusation. I said that if you are planning to go to heaven, then it's probably a good idea to be prepared for it.

I never once said or even THOUGHT that anyone would be unworthy of heaven based on this topic, not even close. So either you have terrible reading comprehension, or you simply like to put words in my mouth.

Salvation has nothing to do with this topic. Salvation is about being born again. It's about being saved by God's grace, through faith.

It's becoming more and more clear that you just don't get my position, at all. You think you do, but you don't. Either that or you are purposely misrepresenting my position, for whatever reason.

And you still have not refuted anything I have said, or pointed out anything specific I have said that you believe is false.

Your own words in your posts throughout give you away as an accuser and a self appointed judge of others; and the Words of Jesus Christ already prove the precepts you are pushing are in error. The blind cannot see or hear. Perhaps you should pray for help since you have an ability to comprehend what I have already posted on this matter. Heaven isn't about what one is eating or drinking to sustain the flesh. You seehave salvation, entering into the kingdom and judgment all mixed up in your confused mind and apparently you must not read through voluminous words that you yourself posted.

It seems very clear to me that that is exactly what you have been doing—selectively cherry-picking a few scattered verses out of the Bible that can be twisted to support vegetarianism, while ignoring many, many others, that refute your view on the subject.

That is demonstrably untrue. I'm looking at the BIG picture and the totality of commands and teachings in the bible. We went over this on the other thread, but you continually ignored all the most important points.

You ignore God's original intent for all of creation, which was peace and harmony, and a 100% plantbased diet.

You ignore God's plan to restore that peace and harmony that existed in the beginning. And He WILL do that.

You ignore God's ideal, which we also know by how heaven is described. God's ideal is no killing or suffering or cruelty.

You ignore that Jesus taught us to want and pray for God's kingdom to come and God's will to be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

You ignore the countless scriptures commanding us to have MERCY, to love and to be kind and to seek peace, as much as it is within our power.

You ignore the fact that your entire position is based on the result of SIN, in this fallen world, and not God's intent for mankind, or perfect will.

Instead of looking at the bigger picture, you and others like you try to justify your position which exalts the ways of this fallen world by searching for specific scriptures and loopholes, instead of doing sincere, genuine soul-searching, seeking GOD and learning about how GOD feels about billions of His precious creations being needlessly exploited, terrorized and brutally slaughtered for humanity's own selfish reasons.

So your comment is completely backwards.

No I ignore you and your ridiculous precepts, I ignore your confusion and your agenda based crap. That was done in an attempt to have mercy on you because you are one ignorant prideful deceitful little snot that does not know that the shit you are pushing is nasty and not in truth at all when it comes to knowing what will transpire or what has transpired when anyone stands in the presence of the throne of God. You talked about heaven but you haven't a clue. Have you been there? Have you actually stood in the presence of God? No you haven't but you sure do think you have a right to judge others and twist the Word to meet your agenda based crap.

You want to seek God then you better start examining yourself first. I care more what happens to the people that those animals feed than the animals. I never said anyone should be cruel to them or that they should not be care for in a humane manner while they are being raised to feed the people that I like to see fed.

I read my husband what you wrote and he was in full agreement with me "she's whacko" but he added some other words in that to describe you and told me to respond to you in such a manner but I declined and attempted to be as kind as possible instead but that isn't good enough for you.

People and animals again both eat meat. Too bad you don't like that but that is the way creation was created to be here in this world; and it will remain that away here in this world.

Take your carnal precepts and shove them where the sun doesn't shine. That means you have several choices of where to put them.

1. That post was to Bob, not you. The fact that you quickly took it as if it was directed to you is telling. It clearly touched a nerve. Also, that post to him was not out of the blue, there’s a context behind it which you seem to be unaware of. On another thread on veganism, Bob and I were posting back and forth, and on the other thread he continually ignored all the points I brought up, and only responded in a juvenile, attacking way. THAT is why I posted that to him.
   
   
2. Your emotional, vicious, mean-spirited and hateful reply just shows that you don’t have a strong position. In any debate, when someone has truth and logic on their side, they don’t need to resort to vicious ad hominem attacks on others.
   
   
3. You did not refute ANYTHING I said. If your position was strong, then it should be easy to refute the things I’ve said, but you have not, instead you just lash out at me angrily, like a feral dog who thinks someone is trying to steal his food, snarling and growling in a vicious, defensive way.
   
   
4. Like Bob, you don’t even seem to understand what my position is. I didn’t even say that flesh eating was a sin. I also never claimed that man was not permitted to eat flesh. So what did I say that you think is false? Be specific.
   
   
5. You said what I'm "pushing" is "nasty" and "shit" but my position boils down to MERCY, love, kindness and nonviolence toward the innocent and defenseless. If those things are "nasty shit" to you, then that says a lot about you.
   
   
6. Your statement that creation was created to be this way is flatly and demonstrably false. Do you not understand that this is a FALLEN world? Do you not understand that when God first created this world, it was a very different place, as the bible clearly shows in Genesis 1 and 2? There was peace and harmony in the very beginning. God gave us a 100% plant-based diet, not only to humans but to ALL of creation.
   
   So for you to say that the way things are now is the way they were created to be is either entirely biblically ignorant, or dishonest. That is an accepted fact among anyone who is even remotely familiar with the Bible, and one that I have not seen anyone deny.
   
   
7. You stated that I don't have a clue about heaven, the implication being that I'm wrong about there being no flesh eating in heaven. Is that what you believe? Do you honestly think there is going to be killing, death and eating of dead bodies in heaven?
   
   I'm sorry but that goes directly against a number of verses including Revelation 21: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” Also Isaiah 25: 8 "He will destroy death forever..." 1 Cor 15:54, and many others.
   
   If you're planning to be in heaven, you might want to be prepared for a world where there is no longer any killing, suffering, death and exploitation. One way to do that is to no longer participate in those things NOW. That's just a suggestion though! Do what you want, you have free will. You will be accountable to God though, for everything you do.
   
   
8. Lastly, you said that you don’t support cruelty to animals and you said something about doing things "humanely." I will give you grace for this one because it’s clear that you haven’t done any research. It’s clear that you have not actually looked at what takes place behind closed doors. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are saying these things out of sincere ignorance and not out of dishonesty. Because the truth of the matter is, the humane myth is just that - a myth. Nothing humane happens in a slaughterhouse.
   
   If you genuinely care to know the truth, I can prove that to you. You have believed a lie, it is as simple as that. Having said that, it is YOU who has to eventually come to the realization that by paying for flesh and other animal products, you are paying for abuse, exploitation and cruelty.
   
   My position is that as Christians, we have a CHOICE. We can choose to love and have mercy on the innocent and defenseless ... or we can choose to use them selfishly, for our own desires. Since eating flesh and using animal products is completely unnecessary (contrary to your incorrect, outdated ideas, there is zero nutritional need to eat flesh) and since we know that this was not God‘s original intent and is not God‘s perfect will... then the better and more right thing to do is to NOT support that cruelty, violence and needless killing of the innocent, solely for our own selfish desires.
   
   I think that is a reasonable position for a practicing Christian to hold, a Christian who wants to honor God’s perfect will and wants to be a loving and merciful person. To avoid any misrepresenting of my position, I never said that this should be mandatory, of course we all have free will and can choose to do what we want.
   
   If you disagree, we can agree to disagree. But you have not shown how my position is wrong, you have not shown how your position is right, you have not done anything except post a few misapplied passages and then personally attack me in the most vicious, ugly mean-spirited way.
   
   But I forgive you. I get your anger. I didn't like veganism or vegans either, before I went vegan. I argued my head off with them, just as many here do. I told them I would NEVER go vegan. But eventually, truth, facts, logic and ethics won out, over my pre-existing ideas that were based on lack of knowledge. That is the same case with all people who go vegan, they don't want to at first, but once they do, it turns out to be one of the best decisions they ever made. The only regret is not doing it sooner.

You blather on a whole lot and for claiming to be a christian why do you ignore the words of warning about claiming who will enter into heaven or go down to hell as to say you can bring Christ down to hell or lift yourself up to heaven? I have posted in scripture where you are in error but you keep ignoring scripture and you keep making presumptions claims base on your own thoughts and desires and spirit of error desiring others who refute you will be judged unworthy to enter into the kingdom of heaven before God just because you thought it over and came to a conclusion that they will be in judgment some how because you think that they will be based on what they eat. Again I think more of the people that meat feeds than I think of your erroneous precepts.

I know where I come from and where I will go when my term is up here in this world. I also know where I have already entered in whereas you know not. I need no forgiveness from you and your demons of error.

What are you even talking about? I never said anything about who will go to heaven or won't. That is a blatantly false accusation. I said that if you are planning to go to heaven, then it's probably a good idea to be prepared for it.

I never once said or even THOUGHT that anyone would be unworthy of heaven based on this topic, not even close. So either you have terrible reading comprehension, or you simply like to put words in my mouth.

Salvation has nothing to do with this topic. Salvation is about being born again. It's about being saved by God's grace, through faith.

It's becoming more and more clear that you just don't get my position, at all. You think you do, but you don't. Either that or you are purposely misrepresenting my position, for whatever reason.

And you still have not refuted anything I have said, or pointed out anything specific I have said that you believe is false.

Your claims are pure ignorant at best while feigning to be a victim of harsh reprimand after you were already warned by not only me but others in manners as gentle as possible. You were already refuted but you have either totally ignored that or are fully blinded in your quest to push an agenda. Quit speaking for God as if you are chosen to do so in your self appointed judgeship when you have already admitted you are speaking from your own thought processes and erroneous precepts.

 

[buttercup]

Your own words in your posts throughout give you away as an accuser and a self appointed judge of others; and the Words of Jesus Christ already prove the precepts you are pushing are in error. The blind cannot see or hear. Perhaps you should pray for help since you have an ability to comprehend what I have already posted on this matter. Heaven isn't about what one is eating or drinking to sustain the flesh. You seehave salvation, entering into the kingdom and judgment all mixed up in your confused mind and apparently you must not read through voluminous words that you yourself posted.

Your tactic here (continually being vague and not addressing specific statements) is clever, but dishonest. Please point out where I said that this topic has to do with salvation. Please point out where I said who is or isn't going to heaven.

I'lll wait.

Your claims are pure ignorant at best while feigning to be a victim of harsh reprimand after you were already warned by not only me but others in manners as gentle as possible. You were already refuted but you have either totally ignored that or are fully blinded in your quest to push an agenda. Quit speaking for God as if you are chosen to do so in your self appointed judgeship when you have already admitted you are speaking from your own thought processes and erroneous precepts.

Which claims? Be specific. You are continually vague and you continually fail to address anything I have said, in a clear specific way.

You already showed that you don't even understand my position, so it's no wonder you think you've refuted anything, as you've created a huge strawman in your mind.

It would be nice to have an actual discussion, where you address what I actually said, and show how it is wrong, instead of continually posting misrepresentations and false accusations that you concocted in your head.