The Way it Was (Pre-Roe v Wade)

[Underhill]

"Fear of unwanted pregnancy" needs to be as big a deal for the male as it is the female, and that is rarely the case.

Fear of pregnancy is the cultural issue.
Baby-haters have spent a lot of money to paint babies as a "punishment".

Perhaps that is a topic that should be discussed more,
Why should people hate babies?

Nobody hates babies. They hate what comes with it. The cost. The time. The change in lifestyle. These things are not inconsiderable and can be extraordinarily difficult alone.

 

[Newby]

Abortion sucks. And the article underlines this.

It's a lousy procedure that nobody wants to endure and who's morality is questionable. The alternative, of making it illegal is just as fucked up for very similar reasons.

There is no easy answer. And in the absence of easy answers I think Roe v. Wade had the right idea.

As for late term abortions, I think making them generally illegal is the right thing to do.

Saying that, I think the author makes an excellent point about our responsibilities to women. We should be educating young people, making birth control available and giving out the day after pill to anyone who wants it.

What I really don't understand are those who are against abortion yet at the same time are against these measures which could actually reduce them. And to make matters worse, these are all too often the same people who think we should gut social services and any form of government healthcare.

One third of high school teens are having sex. And this hasn't changed in decades even with abstinence programs. So it's time people face the facts and move beyond the fairy tail of abstinence as a working alternative to real education and action.

We are already doing that and have been doing it for years, yet abortions go up every year. Plain and simple, it's used for birth control, which is unacceptable. When there are no consequences to deter behavior, the behavior will continue, not only continue but expand and flourish. The further this country moves to the left, the more consequences are taken away. It's not a good thing, and we will pay for it down the road.

Sorry but no. Consequences don't seem to matter a whole lot as the behavior has always existed. Not to mention the largest reason we don't consider teens adults is a lack of judgement. As a father of three teens I can tell you it pisses me off almost daily, but it's a fact.

So the evidence, the physiology and the psychology says consequences simply won't matter to most youth.

As for education, yes we have been working on that since the 80's. But birth control and the day after pill are not universally available.

And anyone who tells you that the day after pill is abortion needs to educate themselves. It simply isn't the same thing.

I honestly think anyone who truly believes abortion is murder should be advocating for giving the day after pill out like candy. Oh I know, they use the same argument you do. But the idea holds no water. On the one hand, you believe abortion is murder. On the other you are not willing to stop the murder because someone may have premarital sex.
Think about that. If I have the choice between a murder, and a teen, or even a bunch of teens having premarital sex, sex wins every time. Hands down.

Consequences don't matter because there aren't any, and because as a society we've managed to make them less and less as years have gone by so people can live irresponsibly without paying too much of a price. We strive to take away the reason for acting responsibly, hence less and less will act responsibly. Even that is a 'consequence', so try as you might, there will aways be consequences to what you do or don't do.

Where did you get the idea, bolded above, that I believe that? How could you possiblty know what I believe? Because I am pro-life then it's only because I'm against pre-marital sex? That's a rather naive assumption to make on your part. I have nothing against pre-marital sex, I could care less what people do from a sexual context. What I am against is not being responsible for yourself or your own actions, if you're going to have sex, use birth control. It's readily available and free if you can't afford it, there's no excuse for 1.2 million abortions a year, other than lazy and irresponsible people. Which goes back to consequences, people will be lazy and irresponsible when there are no negative consequences for doing so.

 

[Underhill]

The Way It Was | Mother Jones

This is a very hard article to read, and will be for both sides of the discussion. I'm pro-choice, though that is not a choice I would ever make for myself. The first page is quite graphic, giving specifics of abortion. The rest is graphic as to what happens when it's not a legal option.

It's a long article, but I believe it to be worth the time it takes to read it.

I really wouldn't want to see Roe v Wade repealed.

The lifers wouldn't care about how it was before Roe. They'd like to see more women suffer and die, or live with health problems all their lives from trying to abort a pregnancy. Not appropriate for CDZ> Newby

I'm a woman and pro-life Noomi, so to make the comment that I'd like to see more women suffer and die is pathetic, not to mention totally false. What about the women who live with guilt and mental issues the rest of their lives after they've killed their own baby? Or are they all proud of what they've done?

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

Personally, I doubt I would feel guilty if it were an early pregnancy. I don't buy the argument that it is murder from day one. I'm not sure where the line is. I don't know that there is one as it's a gradual change from a collection of cells into what we consider human.

And that is what I would like to see. If someone has sex and they aren't sure. If there is any chance, we should be encouraging them to take the day after pill. Then you would see abortion rates plummet.

 

[Newby]

The lifers wouldn't care about how it was before Roe. They'd like to see more women suffer and die, or live with health problems all their lives from trying to abort a pregnancy. Not appropriate for CDZ> Newby

I'm a woman and pro-life Noomi, so to make the comment that I'd like to see more women suffer and die is pathetic, not to mention totally false. What about the women who live with guilt and mental issues the rest of their lives after they've killed their own baby? Or are they all proud of what they've done?

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

Personally, I doubt I would feel guilty if it were an early pregnancy. I don't buy the argument that it is murder from day one. I'm not sure where the line is. I don't know that there is one as it's a gradual change from a collection of cells into what we consider human.

And that is what I would like to see. If someone has sex and they aren't sure. If there is any chance, we should be encouraging them to take the day after pill. Then you would see abortion rates plummet.

How have I been raised that caused me to 'think as I do'?
Have you ever carried a child?

 

[Underhill]

We are already doing that and have been doing it for years, yet abortions go up every year. Plain and simple, it's used for birth control, which is unacceptable. When there are no consequences to deter behavior, the behavior will continue, not only continue but expand and flourish. The further this country moves to the left, the more consequences are taken away. It's not a good thing, and we will pay for it down the road.

Sorry but no. Consequences don't seem to matter a whole lot as the behavior has always existed. Not to mention the largest reason we don't consider teens adults is a lack of judgement. As a father of three teens I can tell you it pisses me off almost daily, but it's a fact.

So the evidence, the physiology and the psychology says consequences simply won't matter to most youth.

As for education, yes we have been working on that since the 80's. But birth control and the day after pill are not universally available.

And anyone who tells you that the day after pill is abortion needs to educate themselves. It simply isn't the same thing.

I honestly think anyone who truly believes abortion is murder should be advocating for giving the day after pill out like candy. Oh I know, they use the same argument you do. But the idea holds no water. On the one hand, you believe abortion is murder. On the other you are not willing to stop the murder because someone may have premarital sex.
Think about that. If I have the choice between a murder, and a teen, or even a bunch of teens having premarital sex, sex wins every time. Hands down.

Consequences don't matter because there aren't any, and because as a society we've managed to make them less and less as years have gone by so people can live irresponsibly without paying too much of a price. We strive to take away the reason for acting responsibly, hence less and less will act responsibly. Even that is a 'consequence', so try as you might, there will aways be consequences to what you do or don't do.

Where did you get the idea, bolded above, that I believe that? How could you possiblty know what I believe? Because I am pro-life then it's only because I'm against pre-marital sex? That's a rather naive assumption to make on your part. I have nothing against pre-marital sex, I could care less what people do from a sexual context. What I am against is not being responsible for yourself or your own actions, if you're going to have sex, use birth control. It's readily available and free if you can't afford it, there's no excuse for 1.2 million abortions a year, other than lazy and irresponsible people. Which goes back to consequences, people will be lazy and irresponsible when there are no negative consequences for doing so.

First, I wasn't talking to you. Second, I am speaking in generalities.

The vast majority of pro-lifers fit into that description I gave. I've been arguing these points on forums for close to a decade and you are the first to call me on this.

If it doesn't fit you, then great!

As for your comments on consequences, they are wrong. Of course there are consequences. Nobody I know wants to get an abortion. And pregnancy is still a massive problem. So the notion that just having legal abortion out there as an option takes away all consequences is nonsense.

The problem is teens (and yes, some adults) do not use good judgement. Never have. This is why we limit their freedom in so many ways. Why they don't vote. Why they don't drive.

Sure there are a tiny minority of nuts out there having 15 abortions, but they are nothing even remotely in the ballpark of normal and probably have some serious mental or drug abuse issues.

 

[Underhill]

I'm a woman and pro-life Noomi, so to make the comment that I'd like to see more women suffer and die is pathetic, not to mention totally false. What about the women who live with guilt and mental issues the rest of their lives after they've killed their own baby? Or are they all proud of what they've done?

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

Personally, I doubt I would feel guilty if it were an early pregnancy. I don't buy the argument that it is murder from day one. I'm not sure where the line is. I don't know that there is one as it's a gradual change from a collection of cells into what we consider human.

And that is what I would like to see. If someone has sex and they aren't sure. If there is any chance, we should be encouraging them to take the day after pill. Then you would see abortion rates plummet.

How have I been raised that caused me to 'think as I do'?
Have you ever carried a child?

I don't know how you were raised. But a 15 year old, told her whole life that abortion is murder, is of course going to have guilt issues.

 

[Newby]

Sorry but no. Consequences don't seem to matter a whole lot as the behavior has always existed. Not to mention the largest reason we don't consider teens adults is a lack of judgement. As a father of three teens I can tell you it pisses me off almost daily, but it's a fact.

So the evidence, the physiology and the psychology says consequences simply won't matter to most youth.

As for education, yes we have been working on that since the 80's. But birth control and the day after pill are not universally available.

And anyone who tells you that the day after pill is abortion needs to educate themselves. It simply isn't the same thing.

I honestly think anyone who truly believes abortion is murder should be advocating for giving the day after pill out like candy. Oh I know, they use the same argument you do. But the idea holds no water. On the one hand, you believe abortion is murder. On the other you are not willing to stop the murder because someone may have premarital sex.
Think about that. If I have the choice between a murder, and a teen, or even a bunch of teens having premarital sex, sex wins every time. Hands down.

Consequences don't matter because there aren't any, and because as a society we've managed to make them less and less as years have gone by so people can live irresponsibly without paying too much of a price. We strive to take away the reason for acting responsibly, hence less and less will act responsibly. Even that is a 'consequence', so try as you might, there will aways be consequences to what you do or don't do.

Where did you get the idea, bolded above, that I believe that? How could you possiblty know what I believe? Because I am pro-life then it's only because I'm against pre-marital sex? That's a rather naive assumption to make on your part. I have nothing against pre-marital sex, I could care less what people do from a sexual context. What I am against is not being responsible for yourself or your own actions, if you're going to have sex, use birth control. It's readily available and free if you can't afford it, there's no excuse for 1.2 million abortions a year, other than lazy and irresponsible people. Which goes back to consequences, people will be lazy and irresponsible when there are no negative consequences for doing so.

First, I wasn't talking to you. Second, I am speaking in generalities.

The vast majority of pro-lifers fit into that description I gave. I've been arguing these points on forums for close to a decade and you are the first to call me on this.

If it doesn't fit you, then great!

As for your comments on consequences, they are wrong. Of course there are consequences. Nobody I know wants to get an abortion. And pregnancy is still a massive problem. So the notion that just having legal abortion out there as an option takes away all consequences is nonsense.

The problem is teens (and yes, some adults) do not use good judgement. Never have. This is why we limit their freedom in so many ways. Why they don't vote. Why they don't drive.

Sure there are a tiny minority of nuts out there having 15 abortions, but they are nothing even remotely in the ballpark of normal and probably have some serious mental or drug abuse issues.

You really believe, in this day and age, that pro-life people are against abortion because they are against pre-marital sex? Seriously?

 

[Newby]

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

Personally, I doubt I would feel guilty if it were an early pregnancy. I don't buy the argument that it is murder from day one. I'm not sure where the line is. I don't know that there is one as it's a gradual change from a collection of cells into what we consider human.

And that is what I would like to see. If someone has sex and they aren't sure. If there is any chance, we should be encouraging them to take the day after pill. Then you would see abortion rates plummet.

How have I been raised that caused me to 'think as I do'?
Have you ever carried a child?

I don't know how you were raised. But a 15 year old, told her whole life that abortion is murder, is of course going to have guilt issues.

Exactly.

 

[Underhill]

Consequences don't matter because there aren't any, and because as a society we've managed to make them less and less as years have gone by so people can live irresponsibly without paying too much of a price. We strive to take away the reason for acting responsibly, hence less and less will act responsibly. Even that is a 'consequence', so try as you might, there will aways be consequences to what you do or don't do.

Where did you get the idea, bolded above, that I believe that? How could you possiblty know what I believe? Because I am pro-life then it's only because I'm against pre-marital sex? That's a rather naive assumption to make on your part. I have nothing against pre-marital sex, I could care less what people do from a sexual context. What I am against is not being responsible for yourself or your own actions, if you're going to have sex, use birth control. It's readily available and free if you can't afford it, there's no excuse for 1.2 million abortions a year, other than lazy and irresponsible people. Which goes back to consequences, people will be lazy and irresponsible when there are no negative consequences for doing so.

First, I wasn't talking to you. Second, I am speaking in generalities.

The vast majority of pro-lifers fit into that description I gave. I've been arguing these points on forums for close to a decade and you are the first to call me on this.

If it doesn't fit you, then great!

As for your comments on consequences, they are wrong. Of course there are consequences. Nobody I know wants to get an abortion. And pregnancy is still a massive problem. So the notion that just having legal abortion out there as an option takes away all consequences is nonsense.

The problem is teens (and yes, some adults) do not use good judgement. Never have. This is why we limit their freedom in so many ways. Why they don't vote. Why they don't drive.

Sure there are a tiny minority of nuts out there having 15 abortions, but they are nothing even remotely in the ballpark of normal and probably have some serious mental or drug abuse issues.

You really believe, in this day and age, that pro-life people are against abortion because they are against pre-marital sex? Seriously?

No, that isn't what I said.

I said, many (most in my experience) pro lifers are against contraceptives in schools and the day after pill which makes no sense.

 

[Underhill]

How have I been raised that caused me to 'think as I do'?
Have you ever carried a child?

I don't know how you were raised. But a 15 year old, told her whole life that abortion is murder, is of course going to have guilt issues.

Exactly.

Umm, I never claimed I did.

 

[Newby]

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

Personally, I doubt I would feel guilty if it were an early pregnancy. I don't buy the argument that it is murder from day one. I'm not sure where the line is. I don't know that there is one as it's a gradual change from a collection of cells into what we consider human.

And that is what I would like to see. If someone has sex and they aren't sure. If there is any chance, we should be encouraging them to take the day after pill. Then you would see abortion rates plummet.

How have I been raised that caused me to 'think as I do'?
Have you ever carried a child?

I don't know how you were raised. But a 15 year old, told her whole life that abortion is murder, is of course going to have guilt issues.

I'm guessing you could take any pregnant female and regardless of how she was raised, she would know that killing her own child is wrong. It's not natural. I think it's the other way around, people like you are trying to convince girls and women that it's natural to want to kill your own child, that there's nothing wrong with it, when instinctually they know that it's not right.

Have you ever carried a child? You didn't answer.

 

[Newby]

First, I wasn't talking to you. Second, I am speaking in generalities.

The vast majority of pro-lifers fit into that description I gave. I've been arguing these points on forums for close to a decade and you are the first to call me on this.

If it doesn't fit you, then great!

As for your comments on consequences, they are wrong. Of course there are consequences. Nobody I know wants to get an abortion. And pregnancy is still a massive problem. So the notion that just having legal abortion out there as an option takes away all consequences is nonsense.

The problem is teens (and yes, some adults) do not use good judgement. Never have. This is why we limit their freedom in so many ways. Why they don't vote. Why they don't drive.
Sure there are a tiny minority of nuts out there having 15 abortions, but they are nothing even remotely in the ballpark of normal and probably have some serious mental or drug abuse issues.

You really believe, in this day and age, that pro-life people are against abortion because they are against pre-marital sex? Seriously?

No, that isn't what I said.

I said, many (most in my experience) pro lifers are against contraceptives in schools and the day after pill which makes no sense.

So we 'limit their freedom' because they don't have good judgment, we don't let them vote or drive, but yet you feel they can make decisions with regards to contraception and abortion without any parental input at all. Who needs a parent, right? Let the government remove the parent from the equation so their young daughter, who can't make mature decisions, can have sex at will without their knowledge, and then if she gets pregnant, she can go kill the child without her parent's knowledge. What kind of message does that send to our children?

 

[Newby]

I don't know how you were raised. But a 15 year old, told her whole life that abortion is murder, is of course going to have guilt issues.

Exactly.

Umm, I never claimed I did.

Umm, yes you did.

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

 

[Underhill]

How have I been raised that caused me to 'think as I do'?
Have you ever carried a child?

I don't know how you were raised. But a 15 year old, told her whole life that abortion is murder, is of course going to have guilt issues.

I'm guessing you could take any pregnant female and regardless of how she was raised, she would know that killing her own child is wrong. It's not natural. I think it's the other way around, people like you are trying to convince girls and women that it's naturual to want to kill your own child, that there's nothing wrong with it, when instinctually they know that it's not right.

Have you ever carried a child? You didn't answer.

No. Of course not.

And I have never tried to convince a woman anything about her choices. It's none of my business. My wife and I have 3 kids. And if one of my daughters came home pregnant the choice is hers and hers alone.

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that how you felt when you were pregnant does not give you all knowing insight into how all women feel.

 

[Underhill]

Exactly.

Umm, I never claimed I did.

Umm, yes you did.

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

Exactly. Where did I say anything about how you were raised?

 

[Newby]

I don't know how you were raised. But a 15 year old, told her whole life that abortion is murder, is of course going to have guilt issues.

I'm guessing you could take any pregnant female and regardless of how she was raised, she would know that killing her own child is wrong. It's not natural. I think it's the other way around, people like you are trying to convince girls and women that it's naturual to want to kill your own child, that there's nothing wrong with it, when instinctually they know that it's not right.

Have you ever carried a child? You didn't answer.

No. Of course not.

And I have never tried to convince a woman anything about her choices. It's none of my business. My wife and I have 3 kids. And if one of my daughters came home pregnant the choice is hers and hers alone.

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that how you felt when you were pregnant does not give you all knowing insight into how all women feel.

Coming from a guy, that's pretty amusing.

 

[Newby]

Umm, I never claimed I did.

Umm, yes you did.

It all depends on circumstance and upbringing. If they have been raised thinking as you do then yes, there are guilt issues.

Exactly. Where did I say anything about how you were raised?

Are we going around in circles here? What was 'raised thinking as I do' supposed to mean exactly? Do we need a translator? You're going to deny English? It meant that you had insight or knowledge as to how I was raised, since you would know how I thought based on how I was raised. It's really not that complicated, unless of course you're trying to deny the obvious.

 

[Underhill]

I'm guessing you could take any pregnant female and regardless of how she was raised, she would know that killing her own child is wrong. It's not natural. I think it's the other way around, people like you are trying to convince girls and women that it's naturual to want to kill your own child, that there's nothing wrong with it, when instinctually they know that it's not right.

Have you ever carried a child? You didn't answer.

No. Of course not.

And I have never tried to convince a woman anything about her choices. It's none of my business. My wife and I have 3 kids. And if one of my daughters came home pregnant the choice is hers and hers alone.

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that how you felt when you were pregnant does not give you all knowing insight into how all women feel.

Coming from a guy, that's pretty amusing.

All I am saying is that your belief that abortion is wrong obviously would make you feel guilty. And many women clearly do not think abortion is wrong.

Guilty - Culpable of or responsible for a specified wrongdoing.

If you don't see the act as wrong, why on earth would you feel guilty?

 

[Underhill]

Umm, yes you did.

Exactly. Where did I say anything about how you were raised?

Are we going around in circles here? What was 'raised thinking as I do' supposed to mean exactly? Do we need a translator? You're going to deny English? It meant that you had insight or knowledge as to how I was raised, since you would know how I thought based on how I was raised. It's really not that complicated, unless of course you're trying to deny the obvious.

Let me spell it out for you.

I know, having been raised in a hard core christian conservative family the affect that upbringing can have on a person. The guilt that comes with that strict list of rules and sins can be staggering.

I was saying that that guilt comes from believing an act is wrong, as you do about abortion.

So no, I was not saying anything about how you were raised.

Clear enough?

 

[Underhill]

I would love to continue the conversation and will later if you like, but I really need to get some work done this morning....