The Way it Was (Pre-Roe v Wade)

[Newby]

Exactly. Where did I say anything about how you were raised?

Are we going around in circles here? What was 'raised thinking as I do' supposed to mean exactly? Do we need a translator? You're going to deny English? It meant that you had insight or knowledge as to how I was raised, since you would know how I thought based on how I was raised. It's really not that complicated, unless of course you're trying to deny the obvious.

Let me spell it out for you.

I know, having been raised in a hard core christian conservative family the affect that upbringing can have on a person. The guilt that comes with that strict list of rules and sins can be staggering.

I was saying that that guilt comes from believing an act is wrong, as you do about abortion.

So no, I was not saying anything about how you were raised.

Clear enough?

So this is about religion to you then? You don't think anyone brought up in a secular household could think abortion was wrong? I know atheists who agree that murder is wrong. It's about whether or not you think the taking of a human life is murder or not. Some people rationalize that killing a baby in uterus isn't taking or ending a human life. But, that's all it is, rationalization.

And again, I counter that killing your own child is not natural, taking religion out of the equation entirely. It's not natural or instinctual for a mother to kill her child, you aren't 'taught' guilt, people brought up in a secular household are capable of feeling guilt.

 

[Newby]

Exactly. Where did I say anything about how you were raised?

Are we going around in circles here? What was 'raised thinking as I do' supposed to mean exactly? Do we need a translator? You're going to deny English? It meant that you had insight or knowledge as to how I was raised, since you would know how I thought based on how I was raised. It's really not that complicated, unless of course you're trying to deny the obvious.

Let me spell it out for you.

I know, having been raised in a hard core christian conservative family the affect that upbringing can have on a person. The guilt that comes with that strict list of rules and sins can be staggering.

I was saying that that guilt comes from believing an act is wrong, as you do about abortion.

So no, I was not saying anything about how you were raised.

Clear enough?

But you are, you're making assumptions about how I was raised based on the fact that I think abortion is wrong.

So I only believe it's wrong because you think I was brought up in a 'hard core christian conservative' family? I wouldn't think it was wrong were I raised differently?

 

[Katzndogz]

The Way It Was | Mother Jones

This is a very hard article to read, and will be for both sides of the discussion. I'm pro-choice, though that is not a choice I would ever make for myself. The first page is quite graphic, giving specifics of abortion. The rest is graphic as to what happens when it's not a legal option.

It's a long article, but I believe it to be worth the time it takes to read it.

I really wouldn't want to see Roe v Wade repealed.

The lifers wouldn't care about how it was before Roe. They'd like to see more women suffer and die, or live with health problems all their lives from trying to abort a pregnancy. Not appropriate for CDZ> Newby

I'm a woman and pro-life Noomi, so to make the comment that I'd like to see more women suffer and die is pathetic, not to mention totally false. What about the women who live with guilt and mental issues the rest of their lives after they've killed their own baby? Or are they all proud of what they've done?

Actually, women that have guilt and mental issues after an abortion are in a distinct minority. Mostly what they feel is a profound sense of relief. Especially now after decades of mental manipulation telling them, from the time they were girls, that they should be PROUD of what they've done.

Pre Roe there was no such mental aberration as abortion addiction where a woman deliberately gets pregnant in order to have an abortion. There is now.

American 'abortion addict' who had 15 terminations in 17 years publishes her memoir | Mail Online

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

No. You didn't. You addressed me, not the contents of the article.

No... I've grown weary of all this stupid shit about da poor womens and the myriad of issues they have with self control.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I did. If you wanted more than that you shouldn't have posted this in the safe zone.

And why exactly are you personally attacking a poster in the clean debate zone?

 

[Newby]

The lifers wouldn't care about how it was before Roe. They'd like to see more women suffer and die, or live with health problems all their lives from trying to abort a pregnancy. Not appropriate for CDZ> Newby

I'm a woman and pro-life Noomi, so to make the comment that I'd like to see more women suffer and die is pathetic, not to mention totally false. What about the women who live with guilt and mental issues the rest of their lives after they've killed their own baby? Or are they all proud of what they've done?

Actually, women that have guilt and mental issues after an abortion are in a distinct minority. Mostly what they feel is a profound sense of relief. Especially now after decades of mental manipulation telling them, from the time they were girls, that they should be PROUD of what they've done.

Pre Roe there was no such mental aberration as abortion addiction where a woman deliberately gets pregnant in order to have an abortion. There is now.

American 'abortion addict' who had 15 terminations in 17 years publishes her memoir | Mail Online

I have a hard time believing that. What you're saying is the flip side of the other comment in the thread that women only feel guilt because of their religious upbringing. Killing your own child is not natural, you can't be taught that it's not wrong, instinctually for the majority of women it would go against what their nature would tell them. Perhaps a lot of women rationalize, or lie about how they really feel when they've had an abortion, because it is the continuation of the rationalization that they've worked through to relieve themselves of guilt from what they've done.

 

[Underhill]

Are we going around in circles here? What was 'raised thinking as I do' supposed to mean exactly? Do we need a translator? You're going to deny English? It meant that you had insight or knowledge as to how I was raised, since you would know how I thought based on how I was raised. It's really not that complicated, unless of course you're trying to deny the obvious.

Let me spell it out for you.

I know, having been raised in a hard core christian conservative family the affect that upbringing can have on a person. The guilt that comes with that strict list of rules and sins can be staggering.

I was saying that that guilt comes from believing an act is wrong, as you do about abortion.

So no, I was not saying anything about how you were raised.

Clear enough?

So this is about religion to you then? You don't think anyone brought up in a secular household could think abortion was wrong? I know atheists who agree that murder is wrong. It's about whether or not you think the taking of a human life is murder or not. Some people rationalize that killing a baby in uterus isn't taking or ending a human life. But, that's all it is, rationalization.

And again, I counter that killing your own child is not natural, taking religion out of the equation entirely. It's not natural or instinctual for a mother to kill her child, you aren't 'taught' guilt, people brought up in a secular household are capable of feeling guilt.

Are you reading what I am posting? This has nothing to do with religion. I was simply pointing out my experience with guilt and where I am coming from.

 

[Underhill]

Are we going around in circles here? What was 'raised thinking as I do' supposed to mean exactly? Do we need a translator? You're going to deny English? It meant that you had insight or knowledge as to how I was raised, since you would know how I thought based on how I was raised. It's really not that complicated, unless of course you're trying to deny the obvious.

Let me spell it out for you.

I know, having been raised in a hard core christian conservative family the affect that upbringing can have on a person. The guilt that comes with that strict list of rules and sins can be staggering.

I was saying that that guilt comes from believing an act is wrong, as you do about abortion.

So no, I was not saying anything about how you were raised.

Clear enough?

But you are, you're making assumptions about how I was raised based on the fact that I think abortion is wrong.

So I only believe it's wrong because you think I was brought up in a 'hard core christian conservative' family? I wouldn't think it was wrong were I raised differently?

I said nothing about how you were raised. Not one word.

I said something about people who are raised to believe as you do. That is not the same thing at all.

I am trying very hard to not make assumptions about you.

 

[Underhill]

I'm a woman and pro-life Noomi, so to make the comment that I'd like to see more women suffer and die is pathetic, not to mention totally false. What about the women who live with guilt and mental issues the rest of their lives after they've killed their own baby? Or are they all proud of what they've done?

Actually, women that have guilt and mental issues after an abortion are in a distinct minority. Mostly what they feel is a profound sense of relief. Especially now after decades of mental manipulation telling them, from the time they were girls, that they should be PROUD of what they've done.

Pre Roe there was no such mental aberration as abortion addiction where a woman deliberately gets pregnant in order to have an abortion. There is now.

American 'abortion addict' who had 15 terminations in 17 years publishes her memoir | Mail Online

I have a hard time believing that. What you're saying is the flip side of the other comment in the thread that women only feel guilt because of their religious upbringing. Killing your own child is not natural, you can't be taught that it's not wrong, instinctually for the majority of women it would go against what their nature would tell them. Perhaps a lot of women rationalize, or lie about how they really feel when they've had an abortion, because it is the continuation of the rationalization that they've worked through to relieve themselves of guilt from what they've done.

It sounds like you are making an assumption based upon your personal experience...

 

[Newby]

Let me spell it out for you.

I know, having been raised in a hard core christian conservative family the affect that upbringing can have on a person. The guilt that comes with that strict list of rules and sins can be staggering.

I was saying that that guilt comes from believing an act is wrong, as you do about abortion.

So no, I was not saying anything about how you were raised.

Clear enough?

So this is about religion to you then? You don't think anyone brought up in a secular household could think abortion was wrong? I know atheists who agree that murder is wrong. It's about whether or not you think the taking of a human life is murder or not. Some people rationalize that killing a baby in uterus isn't taking or ending a human life. But, that's all it is, rationalization.

And again, I counter that killing your own child is not natural, taking religion out of the equation entirely. It's not natural or instinctual for a mother to kill her child, you aren't 'taught' guilt, people brought up in a secular household are capable of feeling guilt.

Are you reading what I am posting? This has nothing to do with religion. I was simply pointing out my experience with guilt and where I am coming from.

I think it is perhaps you that is not reading what you're posting. There's no debating with someone who won't own a statement they made when it is in plain sight for everyone to read. You completely ignored the points that I made, I think they were more than answerable if you're being honest in a discussion.

 

[Newby]

Let me spell it out for you.

I know, having been raised in a hard core christian conservative family the affect that upbringing can have on a person. The guilt that comes with that strict list of rules and sins can be staggering.

I was saying that that guilt comes from believing an act is wrong, as you do about abortion.

So no, I was not saying anything about how you were raised.

Clear enough?

But you are, you're making assumptions about how I was raised based on the fact that I think abortion is wrong.

So I only believe it's wrong because you think I was brought up in a 'hard core christian conservative' family? I wouldn't think it was wrong were I raised differently?

I said nothing about how you were raised. Not one word.

I said something about people who are raised to believe as you do. That is not the same thing at all.

I am trying very hard to not make assumptions about you.

I think you're beating a dead horse at this point, but whatever makes you happy dude.

 

[Newby]

Actually, women that have guilt and mental issues after an abortion are in a distinct minority. Mostly what they feel is a profound sense of relief. Especially now after decades of mental manipulation telling them, from the time they were girls, that they should be PROUD of what they've done.

Pre Roe there was no such mental aberration as abortion addiction where a woman deliberately gets pregnant in order to have an abortion. There is now.

American 'abortion addict' who had 15 terminations in 17 years publishes her memoir | Mail Online

I have a hard time believing that. What you're saying is the flip side of the other comment in the thread that women only feel guilt because of their religious upbringing. Killing your own child is not natural, you can't be taught that it's not wrong, instinctually for the majority of women it would go against what their nature would tell them. Perhaps a lot of women rationalize, or lie about how they really feel when they've had an abortion, because it is the continuation of the rationalization that they've worked through to relieve themselves of guilt from what they've done.

It sounds like you are making an assumption based upon your personal experience...

Okay, let's try another form of communication since the one we're using apparently isn't working. You said you're a father. You don't feel any instinct as a father to protect your children? You had to learn that or be taught that, once your children were born? Did you love your children before they were born, i.e. while your wife or partner was pregnant with them? Did your wife love her children while she was carrying them? Would she have been able to kill them in uterus wihout feeling any emotion or guilt? If not, was that because she was taught it was immoral to kill her child when she was growing up, or because as her instincts to love and protect her child as they grew inside her became more prevalent as her pregnancy continued. Why do women cry and mourn when they have miscarriages when they're still early on in a pregnancy? Is it only because they were taught growing up that they should love the child they carry?

 

[Underhill]

So this is about religion to you then? You don't think anyone brought up in a secular household could think abortion was wrong? I know atheists who agree that murder is wrong. It's about whether or not you think the taking of a human life is murder or not. Some people rationalize that killing a baby in uterus isn't taking or ending a human life. But, that's all it is, rationalization.

And again, I counter that killing your own child is not natural, taking religion out of the equation entirely. It's not natural or instinctual for a mother to kill her child, you aren't 'taught' guilt, people brought up in a secular household are capable of feeling guilt.

Are you reading what I am posting? This has nothing to do with religion. I was simply pointing out my experience with guilt and where I am coming from.

I think it is perhaps you that is not reading what you're posting. There's no debating with someone who won't own a statement they made when it is in plain sight for everyone to read. You completely ignored the points that I made, I think they were more than answerable if you're being honest in a discussion.

You are right. Everyone can read what was said. No question about that.

 

[Katzndogz]

I'm a woman and pro-life Noomi, so to make the comment that I'd like to see more women suffer and die is pathetic, not to mention totally false. What about the women who live with guilt and mental issues the rest of their lives after they've killed their own baby? Or are they all proud of what they've done?

Actually, women that have guilt and mental issues after an abortion are in a distinct minority. Mostly what they feel is a profound sense of relief. Especially now after decades of mental manipulation telling them, from the time they were girls, that they should be PROUD of what they've done.

Pre Roe there was no such mental aberration as abortion addiction where a woman deliberately gets pregnant in order to have an abortion. There is now.

American 'abortion addict' who had 15 terminations in 17 years publishes her memoir | Mail Online

I have a hard time believing that. What you're saying is the flip side of the other comment in the thread that women only feel guilt because of their religious upbringing. Killing your own child is not natural, you can't be taught that it's not wrong, instinctually for the majority of women it would go against what their nature would tell them. Perhaps a lot of women rationalize, or lie about how they really feel when they've had an abortion, because it is the continuation of the rationalization that they've worked through to relieve themselves of guilt from what they've done.

I have worked with a number of women that have had abortions. Most if not all the women that I personally know have had at least one abortion. Religion really has nothing to do with it. That's why bringing religion into the abortion debate is counter productive. Women learn, very early on, that a fetus isn't a baby, it's not human. What it is, is a burden, an intrusion into their lives. So they feel a sense of relief at having it gone. They aren't killing their own child. They can't see it, or hold it, an unborn child occupies the same place as an appendix that's infected. You are relying on an instinct that just isn't there. Or, to be more precise, isn't there anymore. YOU might feel some instinctive imperative to protect the life of your child, but for the vast majority of women, that instinct has been eliminated. That's why abortion has grown from an option for the desperate to a convenience. Some women do feel a sense of guilt, but they are in a distinct minority and usually do come from religious backgrounds.

One of the main reasons why the anti abortion arguments fail to persuade women not to have an abortion is by assuming that women feel a sense of guilt when they obviously don't. Women talk to their friends who never felt a sense of guilt. They were there for women friends or family members who had abortions and never felt guilty but happy that they could continue on with their lives uninterrupted. If you want to stop abortions, the way isn't by telling women they will have an experience that they will never have. It's by imposing that experience on them. Do you understand? They don't naturally feel guilty. They must be made to feel guilty. There must be consequences. There were consequences but they have been eliminated. Bring them back.

 

[Underhill]

I have a hard time believing that. What you're saying is the flip side of the other comment in the thread that women only feel guilt because of their religious upbringing. Killing your own child is not natural, you can't be taught that it's not wrong, instinctually for the majority of women it would go against what their nature would tell them. Perhaps a lot of women rationalize, or lie about how they really feel when they've had an abortion, because it is the continuation of the rationalization that they've worked through to relieve themselves of guilt from what they've done.

It sounds like you are making an assumption based upon your personal experience...

Okay, let's try another form of communication since the one we're using apparently isn't working. You said you're a father. You don't feel any instinct as a father to protect your children? You had to learn that or be taught that, once your children were born? Did you love your children before they were born, i.e. while your wife or partner was pregnant with them? Did your wife love her children while she was carrying them? Would she have been able to kill them in uterus wihout feeling any emotion or guilt? If not, was that because she was taught it was immoral to kill her child when she was growing up, or because as her instincts to love and protect her child as they grew inside her became more prevalent as her pregnancy continued. Why do women cry and mourn when they have miscarriages when they're still early on in a pregnancy? Is it only because they were taught growing up that they should love the child they carry?

Yes. Once my children were born, of course I felt protective. But they were living breathing children.

At 2-6 weeks I don't know that there is anything to feel guilty over.

You may be right that there is some natural feeling in the mother. But I don't see clear evidence of that.

What you are describing may very well be the difference between a mother who wants a baby (consciously or unconsciously) and one who doesn't. If you desired a child, I could see where there could be feelings of attachment. I'm just not sure that exist in a mother who is dreading the notion of being a mother.

 

[Newby]

Actually, women that have guilt and mental issues after an abortion are in a distinct minority. Mostly what they feel is a profound sense of relief. Especially now after decades of mental manipulation telling them, from the time they were girls, that they should be PROUD of what they've done.

Pre Roe there was no such mental aberration as abortion addiction where a woman deliberately gets pregnant in order to have an abortion. There is now.

American 'abortion addict' who had 15 terminations in 17 years publishes her memoir | Mail Online

I have a hard time believing that. What you're saying is the flip side of the other comment in the thread that women only feel guilt because of their religious upbringing. Killing your own child is not natural, you can't be taught that it's not wrong, instinctually for the majority of women it would go against what their nature would tell them. Perhaps a lot of women rationalize, or lie about how they really feel when they've had an abortion, because it is the continuation of the rationalization that they've worked through to relieve themselves of guilt from what they've done.

I have worked with a number of women that have had abortions. Most if not all the women that I personally know have had at least one abortion. Religion really has nothing to do with it. That's why bringing religion into the abortion debate is counter productive. Women learn, very early on, that a fetus isn't a baby, it's not human. What it is, is a burden, an intrusion into their lives. So they feel a sense of relief at having it gone. They aren't killing their own child. They can't see it, or hold it, an unborn child occupies the same place as an appendix that's infected. You are relying on an instinct that just isn't there. Or, to be more precise, isn't there anymore. YOU might feel some instinctive imperative to protect the life of your child, but for the vast majority of women, that instinct has been eliminated. That's why abortion has grown from an option for the desperate to a convenience. Some women do feel a sense of guilt, but they are in a distinct minority and usually do come from religious backgrounds.

One of the main reasons why the anti abortion arguments fail to persuade women not to have an abortion is by assuming that women feel a sense of guilt when they obviously don't. Women talk to their friends who never felt a sense of guilt. They were there for women friends or family members who had abortions and never felt guilty but happy that they could continue on with their lives uninterrupted. If you want to stop abortions, the way isn't by telling women they will have an experience that they will never have. It's by imposing that experience on them. Do you understand? They don't naturally feel guilty. They must be made to feel guilty. There must be consequences. There were consequences but they have been eliminated. Bring them back.

Then mankind is doomed. If women can be programmed to not feel guilt over killing their own unborn child, then mankind can be programmed to do anything, and there's no such thing as a conscience or an internal moral compass.

 

[Katzndogz]

Now you know why it is so very important to the pro abortionists to keep women from seeing ultrasounds of an unborn baby. Once they see it, it is very real to them. It is MUCH harder to persuade women to have an abortion once they actually see the child.

I have friends, not young, she's in her 30s and he's in his 50s. They planned on getting married and having children, or at least that's what he said. Except that he didn't want children. He felt he was too old. In order to "persuade" him, she got pregnant. She got a 4d ultrasound. If you have never seen a 4d ultrasound you owe it to yourself to google it and look at those pictures. That is a BABY, it is nothing else. It is not a glob of cells, it is a BABY. Now, my friend shows off those ultrasound pictures and says "this is my son". It is a real child. It isn't a glob of cells, it's his son and looks rather like him even at this early stage. Of course they are now married and anxiously looking forward to having a son, and more to follow.

Now you know why these ultrasounds are so dangerous to the liberal mantra and why they fight so hard against them.

To answer your question, there is no such thing as an internal moral compass. Leave human beings alone and they don't have the consciousness of the average housecat. They become savage. The internal moral compass comes from religion, or the secondary effects of religion. People who aren't religious and may not believe in God at all, absorb that moral compass from those around them who are. It's herd mentality.

If you pay attention to what's going on around you, it doesn't take much to realize that we are becoming a more savage and sadistic society. Each succeeding generation is a little bit more sadistic than the last. We don't have the moral compass of a primitive people who worship trees and have a shaman as leader. This is what the absence of religion means. It means no moral compass. We aren't born with it. The moral compass is imposed on us normally by parents and then it is reinforced by the larger community. Now we have no parents to impose a moral compass. Unless you are have some age on you, your mother has likely had an abortion or two herself. With each generation more and more people become consciousless. They do what feels good to them and damn everyone else.

Mankind can, absolutely, be programmed to do anything. We are nothing more than Pavolvian dogs after all. Don't we already believe that we can control the weather by the cars we drive and how we heat our homes?

 

[regent]

Roe v. Wade had may have had an effect on the number of unemployed. Before Roe guys with coat-hangers performed the task, now people go to medical doctors and have all kinds of safeguards, and the coat hanger guys are left jobless.

 

[MHunterB]

Actually, women that have guilt and mental issues after an abortion are in a distinct minority. Mostly what they feel is a profound sense of relief. Especially now after decades of mental manipulation telling them, from the time they were girls, that they should be PROUD of what they've done.

Pre Roe there was no such mental aberration as abortion addiction where a woman deliberately gets pregnant in order to have an abortion. There is now.

American 'abortion addict' who had 15 terminations in 17 years publishes her memoir | Mail Online

I have a hard time believing that. What you're saying is the flip side of the other comment in the thread that women only feel guilt because of their religious upbringing. Killing your own child is not natural, you can't be taught that it's not wrong, instinctually for the majority of women it would go against what their nature would tell them. Perhaps a lot of women rationalize, or lie about how they really feel when they've had an abortion, because it is the continuation of the rationalization that they've worked through to relieve themselves of guilt from what they've done.

I have worked with a number of women that have had abortions. Most if not all the women that I personally know have had at least one abortion. Religion really has nothing to do with it. That's why bringing religion into the abortion debate is counter productive. Women learn, very early on, that a fetus isn't a baby, it's not human. What it is, is a burden, an intrusion into their lives. So they feel a sense of relief at having it gone. They aren't killing their own child. They can't see it, or hold it, an unborn child occupies the same place as an appendix that's infected. You are relying on an instinct that just isn't there. Or, to be more precise, isn't there anymore. YOU might feel some instinctive imperative to protect the life of your child, but for the vast majority of women, that instinct has been eliminated. That's why abortion has grown from an option for the desperate to a convenience. Some women do feel a sense of guilt, but they are in a distinct minority and usually do come from religious backgrounds.

One of the main reasons why the anti abortion arguments fail to persuade women not to have an abortion is by assuming that women feel a sense of guilt when they obviously don't. Women talk to their friends who never felt a sense of guilt. They were there for women friends or family members who had abortions and never felt guilty but happy that they could continue on with their lives uninterrupted. If you want to stop abortions, the way isn't by telling women they will have an experience that they will never have. It's by imposing that experience on them. Do you understand? They don't naturally feel guilty. They must be made to feel guilty. There must be consequences. There were consequences but they have been eliminated. Bring them back.

What 'consequences' do you envision, exactly? And how do you propose to do so?

 

[Foxfyre]

After reaching 25 percent from a high of over 1.6 million in 1990, the number of abortions performed annually in the U.S. has leeled off at about 1.2 million a year.

Using AGI figures through 2008, estimating 1,212,400 abortions for 2009 through 2011, and factoring in the possible 3 percent undercount GI estimates for its own figures, the total number of abortions performed in the U.S. since 1973 equals 54,559,615.

Christian Life Resources

That would be more than 54 million people who were never allowed to live. The vast majority of those would never have been conceived in a pre Roe v Wade culture.

The only way that statistic can exist is that women are told over and over again that it is NOT a baby they are killing but is rather a clump of cells, a zygote, not a person. Getting rid of it is of no more consequence and no more a moral issue than removing anything else on your body that you don't want there. So more and more women don't experience remorse or guilt when they use abortion as a means of birth control. They have been conditioned to believe it is not a life that is involved.

I personally am not that opposed to Roe v Wade. But I believe we should all demand that it be implemented as SCOTUS intended. In the first trimester, it is a matter between the woman and her doctor and everybody else respects that privacy. In the second trimester, it would require a panel or determination that it is advisable to end the pregnancy and that would require a better reason than the woman didn't want to be pregnant or didn't want the baby. In the third trimester, a court order could be required and only the life of the mother would be justification for ending a viable pregnancy and a healthy infant.

And we should work much harder in re-estabishing a reference and respect for life, most especially for the more innocent and helpless among us. That is the way it was pre Roe v Wade.