The United States IS a Christian Nation

[Cecilie1200]

Personally, being an agnostic, I would do away with all symbols of religion in government, since the Constitution makes it clear that we have a secular governement.

I don't think Obama will go there. The GOP would love to lable him 'godless' and he is too smart for that.

The Constitution says nothing of the sort. And frankly, Obama has already made it abundantly clear that the only god he worships is his own ambition. So much for him being "too smart".

 

[Richard-H]

Let me straighten this out once and for all:

Now read my lips:



AMERICA IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A CHRISTIAN NATION!

As a matter of fact:

WESTERN CIVILIZATION IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A CHRISTIAN CULTURE!

We are a culture derived from pagans, may of whom have evolved into satanists. (An offshoot of the really bitter anti-Judeo Christian pagans).

Though a tiny minority of our society are REALLY Christians, the vast majority only fake being Christian in order to get over on everyone else in a huge ongoing cultural con game.

Everyone pretends to have Judeo Christian values and have perverted those values in countless ways in order to appear to be Judeo Christian, but THEY AIN"T. IT IS A FRAUD!

The most perverse example (excepting 'ole Adolf, who claimed to be a Christian), is the endless notion of the American Government being a 'Christian Government'. THEOCRATS!

The term 'Christian Government' is a complete OXYMORON. You Cannot be a Christian and believe that government and religion should in any way be combined. It is heresy to a true Christian. (These morons ought to try actually READING THE GOSPELS and finding out what Christianity is about).

To a true Christian governement and religion must be absolutely separate. Any other belief is a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus.

Period. That's all there is to it!

Note: Hitting on hookers though was apparently O.K. by Jesus.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How many of our founding fathers were Deists? Why did they insist on seperation of church and state?

We are a nation of many faiths and many backgrounds.

Get over it.

Obama gets it.

One, and they didn't. "Separation of church and state" is a fiction invented by the left around a phrase in a private letter, not found in any official document.

What our Founding Fathers gave us was religion free from government interference, not government hostile to religion and religious people. It's plain English; it's just too damned bad no one today seems able to read.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How about George Washington?

From his farewell address:
"...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779.

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge

Yep. Those founding fathers had their biases. They also owned slaves and thought it okay to prohibit women from voting. No one is perfect.

Oh, dear God, the old "they owned slaves, so it's okay to ignore the law as written" argument. Sorry, Sparky, but the law is still the law, so just read it and spare us the attempts at lofty condescension, okay? The Founding Fathers were products of their time, just as you are a product of yours, and it's laughable for you to assume that you are morally superior to them simply because you live in a time that tells you slavery is wrong and they didn't. THEY had the wisdom and moral fortitude to buck the conventions of their time and try to create something new and better, something which just happened to open the door for black people to one day take their place as free citizens. Do you really believe that YOU would do as well without a hundred years of history to do your moral thinking for you?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Let me straighten this out once and for all:

Now read my lips:



AMERICA IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A CHRISTIAN NATION!

As a matter of fact:

WESTERN CIVILIZATION IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A CHRISTIAN CULTURE!

We are a culture derived from pagans, may of whom have evolved into satanists. (An offshoot of the really bitter anti-Judeo Christian pagans).

Though a tiny minority of our society are REALLY Christians, the vast majority only fake being Christian in order to get over on everyone else in a huge ongoing cultural con game.

Everyone pretends to have Judeo Christian values and have perverted those values in countless ways in order to appear to be Judeo Christian, but THEY AIN"T. IT IS A FRAUD!

The most perverse example (excepting 'ole Adolf, who claimed to be a Christian), is the endless notion of the American Government being a 'Christian Government'. THEOCRATS!

The term 'Christian Government' is a complete OXYMORON. You Cannot be a Christian and believe that government and religion should in any way be combined. It is heresy to a true Christian. (These morons ought to try actually READING THE GOSPELS and finding out what Christianity is about).

To a true Christian governement and religion must be absolutely separate. Any other belief is a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus.

Period. That's all there is to it!

Note: Hitting on hookers though was apparently O.K. by Jesus.

Let me straigthen this out once and for all.

Read my lips:

YOUR WORD FOR IT MEANS NOTHING. WHO THE HELL ARE YOU THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO JUST TAKE YOUR WORD FOR ANYTHING? YOU SAYING SO SETTLES NOTHING EXCEPT THAT YOU'RE AN ARROGANT DIPWAD.

Now that that's settled, produce some evidence to back up your shit, or sit down and shut up.

 

[JBeukema]

Anyone read the treaty of tripoli?

 

[Old Rocks]

How many of our founding fathers were Deists? Why did they insist on seperation of church and state?

We are a nation of many faiths and many backgrounds.

Get over it.

Obama gets it.

One, and they didn't. "Separation of church and state" is a fiction invented by the left around a phrase in a private letter, not found in any official document.

What our Founding Fathers gave us was religion free from government interference, not government hostile to religion and religious people. It's plain English; it's just too damned bad no one today seems able to read.

Yep, invented by that damned leftist T. Jefferson.
Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[Old Rocks]

Years ago I had a great interest in the entire subject of the "Faith of the Founding Fathers" and a recent interchange has prompted me to get into the matter again. One of the favorite issues years ago, I found, is still around, though matters have progressed somewhat since I last checked. The issue? An item found in a treaty reached with certain Muslim pirates of the African coast, one part of which, Article 11, states:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/tripoli.html

 

[Old Rocks]

The Christian Nation Myth
Farrell Till
Whenever the Supreme Court makes a decision that in any way restricts the intrusion of religion into the affairs of government, a flood of editorials, articles, and letters protesting the ruling is sure to appear in the newspapers. Many protesters decry these decisions on the grounds that they conflict with the wishes and intents of the "founding fathers."

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

The Christian Nation Myth

 

[mattskramer]

How about George Washington?

From his farewell address:
"...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779.

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge

Yep. Those founding fathers had their biases. They also owned slaves and thought it okay to prohibit women from voting. No one is perfect.

Oh, dear God, the old "they owned slaves, so it's okay to ignore the law as written" argument. Sorry, Sparky, but the law is still the law, so just read it and spare us the attempts at lofty condescension, okay? The Founding Fathers were products of their time, just as you are a product of yours, and it's laughable for you to assume that you are morally superior to them simply because you live in a time that tells you slavery is wrong and they didn't. THEY had the wisdom and moral fortitude to buck the conventions of their time and try to create something new and better, something which just happened to open the door for black people to one day take their place as free citizens. Do you really believe that YOU would do as well without a hundred years of history to do your moral thinking for you?

I was responding to Allie Baba’s implication that our founding fathers were such great and practically perfect people. As I said, they had their biases. Thankfully, that provided us with a flexible living document (The Constitution).

As for the law, The US Constitution – the supreme law of the land – says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Technically, having the phrase “In God we trust” on our currency is not the equivalent of congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion, it does come close. The removal of references to God will not prohibit people from exercising their religious freedom.

 

[JBeukema]

Technically, having the phrase “In God we trust” on our currency is not the equivalent of congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion, it does come close

Yes, it is. Only one class of religions calls their god God- those of the neochristian tradition. Therefore, they are recognizing Christianity as the religon of the government and discriminating agains Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and 'Native American' religion, among others

 

[SouthernPlanter]

The Christian Nation Myth
Farrell Till
Whenever the Supreme Court makes a decision that in any way restricts the intrusion of religion into the affairs of government, a flood of editorials, articles, and letters protesting the ruling is sure to appear in the newspapers. Many protesters decry these decisions on the grounds that they conflict with the wishes and intents of the "founding fathers."

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

First, only 3 of hundreds of US Founding Fathers was a Deist, Thomas Jefferson and a few lesser named persons.

Second, the Supreme Court stated that the US was a Christian Nation in the early 1900s, so which one is it?

Third, Christians often agree that Christianity requires choice, so it is impossible to require people or to adversely influence them to become Christians, Christianity welcomes persecution.

That is contrarian to other religions such as Islam.

 

[Kalam]

That is contrarian to other religions such as Islam.

Is it?

 

[SouthernPlanter]

That is contrarian to other religions such as Islam.

Is it?

If Islam is as open to persecution....

Then allow Christians to preach the Gospel through-out Arabia, without any interference, in fact, with Government protection.

I dare you to see that happen in a Muslim country.

 

[foggedinn]

The term 'Christian Government' is a complete OXYMORON. You Cannot be a Christian and believe that government and religion should in any way be combined. It is heresy to a true Christian. (These morons ought to try actually READING THE GOSPELS and finding out what Christianity is about).
:

I've read the Gospels. I read that Jesus is the Davidic King (Supreme civil authority) and Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Supreme religious authority)

I see no separation of church and state in the Gospels. In point of fact, in Jesus, I see a unity of church and state.

 

[sailtowaterfall]

If we're a republic, then why the fuck do idiots like Bush Jr. keep calling us a democracy, as well as keep telling others that we export democracy?

Exactly my question too!

I assume exporting democracy is a just another political tool.

 

[JBeukema]

more like syuporting democracy is a means of destroying the republic- and such fools are the tools of our enemies

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yep. Those founding fathers had their biases. They also owned slaves and thought it okay to prohibit women from voting. No one is perfect.

Oh, dear God, the old "they owned slaves, so it's okay to ignore the law as written" argument. Sorry, Sparky, but the law is still the law, so just read it and spare us the attempts at lofty condescension, okay? The Founding Fathers were products of their time, just as you are a product of yours, and it's laughable for you to assume that you are morally superior to them simply because you live in a time that tells you slavery is wrong and they didn't. THEY had the wisdom and moral fortitude to buck the conventions of their time and try to create something new and better, something which just happened to open the door for black people to one day take their place as free citizens. Do you really believe that YOU would do as well without a hundred years of history to do your moral thinking for you?

I was responding to Allie Baba’s implication that our founding fathers were such great and practically perfect people. As I said, they had their biases. Thankfully, that provided us with a flexible living document (The Constitution).

I don't think Allie said anything of the sort. And the Constitution is not "living", nor is it particularly flexible. If you actually follow the law, instead of just twisting the meaning whenever you want, it's damned hard to change.

As for the law, The US Constitution – the supreme law of the land – says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Technically, having the phrase “In God we trust” on our currency is not the equivalent of congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion, it does come close. The removal of references to God will not prohibit people from exercising their religious freedom.

Really? "In God We Trust" comes close to establishing an official religion, does it? Tell me. Specifically which religious denomination does "In God We Trust" establish as the official religion of the United States?

Nothing about the Constitution requires the government to be hostile to religion, or pretend it doesn't exist, or ignore the relentlessly Christian history of our nation. And technically, how is it harming you, anyway? Most people don't even look at the money beyond checking the number.

 

[Care4all]

The term 'Christian Government' is a complete OXYMORON. You Cannot be a Christian and believe that government and religion should in any way be combined. It is heresy to a true Christian. (These morons ought to try actually READING THE GOSPELS and finding out what Christianity is about).
:

I've read the Gospels. I read that Jesus is the Davidic King (Supreme civil authority) and Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Supreme religious authority)

I see no separation of church and state in the Gospels. In point of fact, in Jesus, I see a unity of church and state.

To some:

When Christ said to "give unto Caesar, what is his..." was a "separation" of church and state....

Christ succumbed to the Roman's killing him....was a separation of church and state as well....though His death was for greater purposes....

Care

 

[editec]

I don't give a rat's ass what religion or non religion the floundering fathers were.

We live in a secular society with religious freedom and we're better off as a result of that.