The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Indeependent]

Posters that can't stick to the history up to the creation of the State of Israel will be ejected. This thread was started by moderation to CONFINE the topic in that manner. Anything after 1950 or so will be deleted or warned or the member thread banned.

If you want to discuss OTHER time frames -- create the thread or find one to continue under.

What about things like ethnic cleansing, colonialism, and apartheid that started before 1948 and continue today?

This discussion is about Israel, not the Arab world.

 

[Slyhunter]

And THAT is not the topic of this thread.

Please stay on topic, thank you.

Anything prior to 1950 concerning the creation of Israel is fair game. You aint a fucking moderator stop acting like one.

 

[Indeependent]

Israeli's were given the land a long time before there were Palestinians to contest it.

That just isn't true. At least biblical scripture disagrees with your view----- You are welcome to prove me wrong, that is if you can--

(Gen 41:39 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath showed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:

(Gen 41:40 KJV) Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

(Gen 41:42 KJV) And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

(Gen 41:44 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Gen 41:46 KJV) And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh King of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt.

Joseph who is now the de facto ruler over all of Egypt saves the Israelites who are experiencing a great famine and moves them to Egypt and gives them power over all the agriculture lands. Clearly they were not slaves as some would have believed.

(Gen 42:1 KJV) Now when Jacob saw that there was corn in Egypt, Jacob said unto his sons, why do ye look one upon another?

(Gen 42:2 KJV) And he said, Behold, I have heard that there is corn in Egypt: get you down thither, and buy for us from thence;

(Gen 42:5 KJV) And the sons of Israel came to buy corn among those that came: for the famine was in the land of Canaan.

(Gen 42:25 KJV) Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way:

(Gen 45:20 KJV) Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

See above, they abandon the land of Canaan and move to Egypt

(Gen 45:21 KJV) And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

(Gen 47:1 KJV) Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father [ISRAEL] and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:3 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.

(Gen 47:4 KJV) They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:5 KJV) And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, Thy father [ISRAEL] and thy brethren are come unto thee:

(Gen 47:6 KJV) The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.

(Gen 47:11 KJV) And Joseph placed his father [ISRAEL] and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.

Please, Slayhunter--; prove me wrong

That's a lot of stuff out of context.

 

[Sixties Fan]

And THAT is not the topic of this thread.

Please stay on topic, thank you.

Anything prior to 1950 concerning the creation of Israel is fair game. You aint a fucking moderator stop acting like one.

The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

Let me know when the topic includes anything before the Mandate for Palestine came to be and 1948 or 1950, as you did in your previous post.

You may have missed it, but the moderators asked all of us to keep on the topic and therefore, any one of us reminding those who are not aware of it, or do not care for it, is exactly what I was doing and will continue to do.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Noga Kadman - Erased from Space and Consciousness

 

[Slyhunter]

And THAT is not the topic of this thread.

Please stay on topic, thank you.

Anything prior to 1950 concerning the creation of Israel is fair game. You aint a fucking moderator stop acting like one.

The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

Let me know when the topic includes anything before the Mandate for Palestine came to be and 1948 or 1950, as you did in your previous post.

You may have missed it, but the moderators asked all of us to keep on the topic and therefore, any one of us reminding those who are not aware of it, or do not care for it, is exactly what I was doing and will continue to do.

You remind me of the nerd who thinks he's substituting for the teacher whenever she's not around.

 

[rylah]

Noga Kadman - Erased from Space and Consciousness

That's quiet interesting that in her opening statement she confirms that "Palestinians" in Arab countries are not a distinct different ethnic group. She then goes on using the word "Palestinian" to refer exclusively to Arabs.

What's more interesting is that her mother was a Palestinian Jew for 68 years before the re-establishment of Israel.

 

[watchingfromafar]

Let me know when the topic includes anything before the Mandate

In order to "mandate" the creation of Israel it would require a review of Israel's past history. That "history" is open to debate to justify the mandate.

This makes Israel's "history" reliant.

 

[Shusha]

Let me know when the topic includes anything before the Mandate

In order to "mandate" the creation of Israel it would require a review of Israel's past history. That "history" is open to debate to justify the mandate.

This makes Israel's "history" reliant.

Not true. And, if you were judging all peoples equally, it would be easy enough to see why. Discuss the history of Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon. Then compare with the re-constitution of the nation of Israel.

 

[rylah]

Let me know when the topic includes anything before the Mandate

In order to "mandate" the creation of Israel it would require a review of Israel's past history. That "history" is open to debate to justify the mandate.

This makes Israel's "history" reliant.

What's up to debate, 3500 continuous years of Jewish presence in their land,
or the fact that Arabs themselves call this land the "Jewish desert"?

 

[watchingfromafar]

Then compare with the re-constitution of the nation of Israel.

There was never-ever a nation of Israel prior to 1947ad. so please face reality, you cannot re-constitute something that never existed before. Where ever you were born is your homeland not the land of ooz which only exists in children's imaginations.

in short, grow up

 

[watchingfromafar]

What's up to debate, 3500 continuous years of Jewish presence in their land,

They never had a homeland. This is a fact so stop lying to yourself.

I have my proof--- rylah, where is yours?
​

Is the land of “Israel” their true ancient homeland?

Promised Land
“Moses went up Mount Nebo to the top of Pisgah, looked over the promised land of Israel spread out before him, and died, at the age of one hundred and twenty, according to Talmudic legend on 7 Adar, his 120th birthday exactly.

Moab is the historical name for a mountainous strip of land in modern-day Jordan running along the eastern shore of the Dead Sea. In ancient times, it was home to the kingdom of the Moabites, a people often in conflict with their Israelite neighbors to the west.

The Moabites were a historical people, whose existence is attested to by numerous archeological findings, most notably the Mesha Stele, which describes the Moabite victory over an unnamed son of King Omri of Israel. Their capital was Dibon, located next to the modern Jordanian town of Dhiban.”
Moab - New World Encyclopedia

From there they moved to Egypt

(Gen 42:25 KJV) Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way:

(Gen 45:20 KJV) Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

(Gen 45:21 KJV) And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

(Gen 47:1 KJV) Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father [ISRAEL] and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:3 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.

Again I ask--I have my proof--- rylah, where is yours?​

 

[Slyhunter]

Then compare with the re-constitution of the nation of Israel.

There was never-ever a nation of Israel prior to 1947ad. so please face reality, you cannot re-constitute something that never existed before. Where ever you were born is your homeland not the land of ooz which only exists in children's imaginations.

in short, grow up

Was too. You are ignoring the Israelites.

 

[Shusha]

Then compare with the re-constitution of the nation of Israel.

There was never-ever a nation of Israel prior to 1947ad. so please face reality, you cannot re-constitute something that never existed before. Where ever you were born is your homeland not the land of ooz which only exists in children's imaginations.

in short, grow up

You missed my point. There was never a nation of Iraq. Or Syria. Or Jordan. Or Lebanon. If these nations can exist, nothing prohibits Israel from existing, except antisemitism like yours which applies different rules to people if they are culturally Jewish.

That said, there is AMPLE historical evidence of a nation and continued presence a specific and culturally distinct Jewish people going back, unbroken, for 3500 years. So the term, "re-constituted" is accurate. There is a clear and undeniable historical connection of the Jewish people to that specific territory. And no amount of "growing up" is going to destroy that historical evidence.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ watchingfromafar, et al,

We should stop this foolishness.

Again I ask--I have my proof--- rylah, where is yours?​

(COMMENT)

The discussion revolves around three pivotal points:

✪ The UN did not create the State of Israel. The UN recommended a process called the "Steps Preparatory to Independence.

• The Jewish Agency opted in.

• The Arab Higher Committee opted out.​

✪ The State of Israel was created when the "National Council for the Jewish State:"

• Applied to the United Nations Palestine Commission (UNPC), the successor government following the termination of the British Mandate, for the recognition of the Israeli Provisional Government.

• This action was done in accordance with the recommendations made by the UN Special Committee for Palestine that were approved by the General Assembly.​

✪ The Mandate for Palestine only tasked the Mandatory Government of Palestine to set the conditions for the:

• Provisions designed to apply the policy defined by the "Balfour Declaration."

• Intention to encourage the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

• For reconstituting their national home the Mandatory Government would encorage Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and, in co-operation with the Jewish agency, AND encourage close settlement by Jews on the land.​

For the contemporary period (the State of Israel that was created in 1948) nothing else really matters. No ancient claim or ancient history makes any difference other than the knowledge that in 1920, the Allied Powers made a historical connection, between the Jews and the region in question, which influenced their decision (to what degree is unknown other than it was significant enough to mention).

Whatever there was about the decision-making process to criticise today, the decision was made nearly a century ago. And since that time, the Arab Palestinians have argued the point with the League of Nations, the Allied Powers (individually and collectively), the various commissions, and the Jewish Agency and later the Israeli Government. Both through talks and combat, the Hostile Arab community have lost politically and militarily; with adverse consequences for Arab Palestinians to face.

No matter how you slice it, the ground truth and reality seen today in the region, and the reorientation of the territorial demarcations, are a direct result of the Hostile Arab Palestinian attempting to take territorial control over which they have never had sovereignty at any time from the end of the Ottoman Empire (1918) to the Armistice Arangements (1949).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

nothing prohibits Israel from existing, except antisemitism like yours which applies different rules to people if they are culturally Jewish.

Israel exists today. I believe that because you can find a nation called "Israel" on a map. But you cannot find a map showing an ancient "Israel"; period.

And calling me an antisemitic proves you have no proof to provide so you result to calling me names instead.

That is, my friend a third graders response on an adult's forum.

Look, I even went to the trouble to find you a forum that fits your needs.
Virtual Teen Forums

Only because I consider you a friend who needs to find a place where you belong

You don't even have to thank me

MAP of ancient ISrael

Ancient Israel


No, we do not have to thank you at all. Not now, not ever.

A Jew hater like you who decides to deny the existence of Ancient Israel and its history = A Jew Hater denialist


And again NO Thanks, Thank you but.....NO

 

[Shusha]

nothing prohibits Israel from existing, except antisemitism like yours which applies different rules to people if they are culturally Jewish.

Israel exists today. I believe that because you can find a nation called "Israel" on a map. But you cannot find a map showing an ancient "Israel"; period.

And calling me an antisemitic proves you have no proof to provide so you result to calling me names instead.

That is, my friend a third graders response on an adult's forum.

Look, I even went to the trouble to find you a forum that fits your needs.
Virtual Teen Forums

Only because I consider you a friend who needs to find a place where you belong

You don't even have to thank me

On the contrary, the "proof" of adulting would be to discuss the content of posts within the constructs of the thread guidelines and topic.

This topic is the creation of the modern State of Israel and the legal documents and instruments which led to that outcome. if your only point is to claim that Israel did not exist at anytime in history prior to that moment -- you are on the wrong thread, not I.

I think, rather, and please correct me if I am mistaken, that you are trying to claim that SINCE Israel did not exist prior to its re-formation in 1948 THEREFORE it has no right to exist. This is problematic BECAUSE it applies rules to Israel which you do not apply to dozens of other States which also did not exist prior to their modern formation. I have yet to discover an individual who applied different rules to Israel and the Jewish people who was NOT antisemitic and whose reasons for the different applications are not fundamentally rooted in antisemitism. And I can not even conceive of an argument where a defined group has different rules applied to it which would not be, at its core, discriminatory against that group.

 

[watchingfromafar]

A Jew hater like you

bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla,bla, bla, bla,

who decides to deny the existence of Ancient Israel and its history = A Jew Hater denialist

I looked at your map----- Syria, Damasce, The Tribs of Dan Devider and images of buildings denoting towns of the time; but no “Israel”, no “Zion” or anything else that denoted a Jewish land.

Sorry put I looked at the map. There was nothing there to support your view.

Note: If you load the map and want to magnify it to look closer, just hold down your [Ctrl] key while rolling your mouse up or down

 

[Shusha]

Having said that, I still reserve the right to judge them on their behavior once they became a country in the modern sense.

Since the beginning of their new-found state they have-----

[1] assassinated foreign leaders

[2] used bombs to blow up busses and people in crowds

[3] murdered man women and children i.e. entire Palestinian villages and then bulldozed the villages to the ground and then built illegal settlements on top of them

[4] IDF snipers shooting Palestinian children while sitting at their UN sponsored classroom desks or walking down the street

In my view that above actions and many others should disqualify them of statehood.

We welcome reasoned discussion on any or all of the above topics. This is not the appropriate thread. I would suggest you find a thread (or start one) and ask some specific questions about specific events.

I do find your comments about disqualifiactions from statehood to be interesting, though I think its rather more a removal of statehood, than a disqualification or prevent of forming statehood at this point, with respect to Israel. Current international legal standards do not have a "removal of statehood" option based on moral principles or guidelines. There is no process by which this can occur. The assumption of an absolute right to self-determination, sovereignty and territorial integrity is the norm. I wonder what such a thing would look like? I wonder how one would achieve this "removal of statehood"? To whom should it apply?

 

[watchingfromafar]

I think, rather, and please correct me if I am mistaken, that you are trying to claim that SINCE Israel did not exist prior to its re-formation in 1948 THEREFORE it has no right to exist.

I can understand that you see it that was. In some regards I was wrong about the recognition of “Israel” in the 1940’s. The past is irrelevant to this discussion, Israel does exist and rightfully so.

As to the things the Israeli’s have done since then is not an issue that belongs in this thread.

Having said that I leave you to your discussion.