The Left Really Just Hates freedom

[JakeStarkey]

Or better yet, Iraqi women.

Republicans have been "spreading freedom" for 8 years. How well did that work out?

I'm not sure how you're getting that it's somehow modern day Republicans fault that the way Islam is practiced in the Middle East is their fault. It's been repressive toward women since it began.

Read #115 above. Why? Because neocon and corporatist Republicans claim Iraqi civil rights for women as one of the great gains from the war. By aching butt, that. Let folks go study the current status of Iraqi women today, and they will find out the claim by neocon losers is a loser.

 

[Amanda]

Or better yet, Iraqi women.

Republicans have been "spreading freedom" for 8 years. How well did that work out?

I'm not sure how you're getting that it's somehow modern day Republicans fault that the way Islam is practiced in the Middle East is their fault. It's been repressive toward women since it began.

Read #115 above. Why? Because neocon and corporatist Republicans claim Iraqi civil rights for women as one of the great gains from the war. By aching butt, that. Let folks go study the current status of Iraqi women today, and they will find out the claim by neocon losers is a loser.

Are you deflecting because you can't answer my question or just don't want to admit the truth?

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, Amanda, you are ignoring that war Republicans claim 'womens rights' as a gain of the war, when it fact their rights are far more limited now.

 

[bucs90]

Or better yet, Iraqi women.

Republicans have been "spreading freedom" for 8 years. How well did that work out?

I'm not sure how you're getting that it's somehow modern day Republicans fault that the way Islam is practiced in the Middle East is their fault. It's been repressive toward women since it began.

Read #115 above. Why? Because neocon and corporatist Republicans claim Iraqi civil rights for women as one of the great gains from the war. By aching butt, that. Let folks go study the current status of Iraqi women today, and they will find out the claim by neocon losers is a loser.

Yes, because I'm sure the Iraqi women preferred by tortured, kidnapped and used as sex slaves under the Hussein regime, right? Yes, the Iraqi women are still poor. They are still struggling. But they are alive and more free.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am Christian first, always, and last, but I am not a bozo enough to suggest that patriarchy is not a historical, sociological, and cultural phenomena of the three western religions that flow from Father Abraham. Women, like all humans, want all their human civil rights, including the right to express their own sense of being a woman without a man beating her with a cane (or worse) for not meeting his criteria of womanhood. Under the false guise of constitutional Iraqi human rights, women there are being relegated steadily to a second-class status.

 

[Amanda]

No, Amanda, you are ignoring that war Republicans claim 'womens rights' as a gain of the war, when it fact their rights are far more limited now.

Republicans could claim black is white or day is night. What Republicans claim doesn't have anything to do with the reality of women under Islam in the Middle East. It seems to me that you're using their plight for perceived political gain. But it's plain for all to see that Republicans in America didn't start Islam hundreds of years ago, and they don't enforce the draconian rules that women there live under now.

 

[georgephillip]

"In the spring of 2003, Fatin was a student of architecture at Baghdad University. Her days were filled with classes and hanging out in her favorite of Baghdad's many cafes, where she and her friends studied, shared music, and spun big plans for successful careers, happy marriages, and eventually, kids.

"Today (March 2009) Fatin says that those feel like someone else's dreams.

"Soon after the US invasion, Fatin began seeing groups of bearded young Iraqi men patrolling the streets of Baghdad. They were looking for women like her, who wore modern clothes or were heading to professional jobs.

"The men screamed terrible insults at the women and sometimes beat them.

"By fall, ordinary aspects of Fatin's life had become punishable by death. The 'misery gangs' as Fatin calls them, were routinely killing women for wearing pants, appearing in public without a headscarf, or shaking hands and socializing with men."

 

[Amanda]

"The men screamed terrible insults at the women and sometimes beat them.

"By fall, ordinary aspects of Fatin's life had become punishable by death. The 'misery gangs' as Fatin calls them, were routinely killing women for wearing pants, appearing in public without a headscarf, or shaking hands and socializing with men."

Are you asserting that the men in question were American Republicans? Or could it be that they were just garden variety Islamic Fundamentalists doing what they've been doing to women since long before this country existed?

You're as bad as Jake for using these women's plight to serve a political agenda. Seriously, what are you doing to make it better besides blaming the US? We didn't invent Islam and we don't hold guns to anyone's head to make them behave the way they do. If you want to blame someone for the situation these women find themselves in why not look to the men that are actually hurting them?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Amanda, slow down, take a deep breath. Let's put things in perspective. You left out above that "I am Christian first, always, and last," and have been a Republican voter locally and state almost always, and nationally more than half the time, during the last forty years.

The point is that agenda-drive Republicans neocons have an agenda. not us, who are claiming the women of Iraq are far more free now than under Saddam. However, now they are being subjugated to religious and cultural oppression by men who are determined to extinguish women's rights.

Those are the facts, Amanda, not agenda, and you will find nothing to contradict them.

 

[Bern80]

Really? What freedoms have you lost due to positions from the "progressive left"?

The freedom to not by health insurance and be penalized for it for starters.....

Other freedoms the left has or is trying to take:

Freedom to eat salt, eat trans fats, drink soda, smoke a cigarette in a bar, wear a seat belt, wear a motorcycle helmet, use profanity.

The list goes on and on of everyday personal liberties the left has taken or is working on taking away.

Mostly agree, the whole smoking ban thing though is actually about taking away people's freedom to allow what ever they like on their own property.

 

[Amanda]

Amanda, slow down, take a deep breath. Let's put things in perspective. You left out above that "I am Christian first, always, and last," and have been a Republican voter locally and state almost always, and nationally more than half the time, during the last forty years.

Let me start by saying that I appreciate you treating me like a real person, that goes a long way with me. I sent a friend request just based on that.

The point is that agenda-drive Republicans neocons have an agenda. not us, who are claiming the women of Iraq are far more free now than under Saddam. However, now they are being subjugated to religious and cultural oppression by men who are determined to extinguish women's rights.

I would agree that things aren't as good now for women in Iraq as they were under Saddam. I'm hesitant to make that comment because as we both know people on this board will take that kind of statement and run with it to all sorts of illogical assumptions. The fact is under Saddam Iraq was a quasi-secular state. Women had many more freedoms than other Islamic countries. And yes, things are not as good now for women, BUT they have the potential to be better than they ever were under Saddam, BUT whether or not this happens isn't solely up to Republicans in America. The people oppressing women in Iraq aren't Republicans in America. And if the sort of policies we're trying to put in place succeed they will lead to more freedoms for both men and women in Iraq.

The subject of Iraq is certainly a a very complex 1 and I can't begin to put down all my thoughts (no 1 would read them even if I did... lol). I have family there now and from what I know of the situation and what he tells me I don't believe there is a happy outcome, and this makes me sad. What I'm objecting to is the plight of the women of Iraq being placed at the feet of Americans. We aren't enforcing the dogma of Fundamentalist Islam. If some blowhard politicians are talking out of their asses I'm not surprised, but that doesn't change the fact that Americans aren't the 1's to blame for the situation Iraqi women find themselves in.

Those are the facts, Amanda, not agenda, and you will find nothing to contradict them.

I'm a political pragmatist, or so I've been told by people that are a lot smarter than me. When I look at a situation I'm not looking for someone to blame, but a way to solve the problem. I don't endear myself to the other conservative posters here with some of my views. And when I look at the plight of Iraqi women I see the problem as being that of how Fundamentalist Islam views women, not what the US has done to try to make Iraq a better place. I would bet that we have more in common than not on this subject, we just see a different villain as being responsible.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Amanda, what a great post!

May your family in Iraq be safe.

I agree fully with "We aren't enforcing the dogma of Fundamentalist Islam" in Iraq. However, we were in a position to empower when forcefully and we did not. I don't know where the Sunni stand is on this, but I know that the Shi'a will second-class women in a heartbeat if not stopped.

Now we do not have the power to enforce those rights, the Iraqi government won't enforce those rights and punish those who do take them from women, yet a neocon agenda to give credit to the Republicans for a cultural disaster in the making as we write, simply infuriates me.

 

[Amanda]

Amanda, what a great post!

May your family in Iraq be safe.

I agree fully with "We aren't enforcing the dogma of Fundamentalist Islam" in Iraq. However, we were in a position to empower when forcefully and we did not. I don't know where the Sunni stand is on this, but I know that the Shi'a will second-class women in a heartbeat if not stopped.

Now we do not have the power to enforce those rights, the Iraqi government won't enforce those rights and punish those who do take them from women, yet a neocon agenda to give credit to the Republicans for a cultural disaster in the making as we write, simply infuriates me.

Thanks, Jake. Conversations like this are why I joined this stinking hellhole to begin with.

Personally, I look back to how Iraq was divided following WW1 and I'm appalled. It seems it was set up to be unstable. The various sects of Islam will likely never agree, and war between them seems inevitable. I don't know what can be done to change that.

I don't think getting involved there was wise, and I suspect the motives probably had to do with profits from oil, but that aside I think it is possible that we can bring a better life to those people, I just don't know that they want what we're offering. And that is the real problem. Now we are involved and there doesn't seem to be a viable exit strategy. I don't think Bush had any answers and I don't think Obama does either.

I understand your frustration but I just don't think we can place it all at the feet of the US, or Republicans specifically. In order for there to be peace in Iraq, or anywhere really, the people of the region have to be content. I don't believe it is within our power to give them that. We can try to set the stage but they have to want it. At this time it doesn't seem like they do.

As for my family... I don't worry too much for my brother over there, but the Iraqi's that come into contact with him have my prayers.

 

[Flopper]

The more I think about it the more I realize that the progressive left hates freedom more than anything. I can't think of anything they have ever done that promotes freedom in any way but I can point out what they do for power and power over others. Most conservatives are pretty content with leading their lives the way they want to without being bothered by the forced collective thinking of the left. Its sad that a country born with a new idea in this world is slowly reverting back to the old world way of thinking.

You said "I can't think of anything they have ever done that promotes freedom..." Well I can think of a few. Chronologically, there was social security act which gave the elderly and disabled the right to live. Then there was the integration of the military that laid the foundation for the civil rights act. Of course there was the civil rights act which was backed heavily by Democrats except the soon to be Republican legislators in the South. And then there was the Equal Rights Amendment. Although it was never ratified it has provided the foundation for much legislation preventing discrimination by sex. There have been a host of other initiatives to prevent age discrimination, gay rights, etc...

Of course whenever the government bestows a right on one group, it takes a right away from another. For example the civil rights act made it illegal under federal law to lynch a person of color because of their race. Sex discrimination laws took away employers right to pay women lower salaries simply because they were women.

Oh so very wrong!

For one, social security is a disaster that is about to go bankrupt. It's our national tumor that has yet to be discovered. It did not give anyone any more freedom. It TOOK freedom from many by forcefully taking money out of their pockets. Now, I for one am OK with that ideal, as I don't mind a small tax to help the elderly, but do not mistake that for giving MORE freedom to MORE people.

You touch on the idea that giving to one means taking from another. While you mention the Equal Rights amendment, you should also note that Affirmative Action does the same thing, except it MANDATES the discrimination in employment based on race and gender. It mandates that a certain number of white males be discriminated against through preferential hiring of any available who are not white and/or male.

You said “ I can't think of anything they have ever done that promotes freedom in any way”… Are you saying the civil rights act has not provide more freedom for people of color or the sexual discrimination laws has not provide women with the freedom to advance themselves in the work place? During the Great Depression, the elder were hit harder than most. For most workers, the only retirement savings they had were in the banks and many lost it all. There were no IRA, or 401K plans and damn few pension plans. Social Security did give many thousands of elderly the opportunity to live and I think that is the most important freedom we have. Granted Social Security has grown into something quite different.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Amanda, what a great post!

May your family in Iraq be safe.

I agree fully with "We aren't enforcing the dogma of Fundamentalist Islam" in Iraq. However, we were in a position to empower when forcefully and we did not. I don't know where the Sunni stand is on this, but I know that the Shi'a will second-class women in a heartbeat if not stopped.

Now we do not have the power to enforce those rights, the Iraqi government won't enforce those rights and punish those who do take them from women, yet a neocon agenda to give credit to the Republicans for a cultural disaster in the making as we write, simply infuriates me.

Thanks, Jake. Conversations like this are why I joined this stinking hellhole to begin with.

Personally, I look back to how Iraq was divided following WW1 and I'm appalled. It seems it was set up to be unstable. The various sects of Islam will likely never agree, and war between them seems inevitable. I don't know what can be done to change that.

I don't think getting involved there was wise, and I suspect the motives probably had to do with profits from oil, but that aside I think it is possible that we can bring a better life to those people, I just don't know that they want what we're offering. And that is the real problem. Now we are involved and there doesn't seem to be a viable exit strategy. I don't think Bush had any answers and I don't think Obama does either.

I understand your frustration but I just don't think we can place it all at the feet of the US, or Republicans specifically. In order for there to be peace in Iraq, or anywhere really, the people of the region have to be content. I don't believe it is within our power to give them that. We can try to set the stage but they have to want it. At this time it doesn't seem like they do.

As for my family... I don't worry too much for my brother over there, but the Iraqi's that come into contact with him have my prayers.

Location of oil and access to the ocean determined the creation of Iraq. Artificially created from the Ottoman Empire, Iraq included groups not based on self determination but location of oil and access to the ocean. The Kurds, the Shi'ite majority, and the Sunni have quarreled and warred every since WWI.

We can place the issue of womens rights clearly at the feet of those who wish to make hay with the topic. When the neocons claim credit for a situation that does not exist, then we can say, "No, fellow, tell the truth".

Good fortune to your brother.

 

[Flopper]

The left is the force that has moved this country forward at every step in history.

You are both wrong. It's not the right or left. It's the center that keeps these forces from destroying our country. Centralist are able to evaluate ideas from right and the left and make decisions with a more open mind without being blinded by political dogma and propaganda. Unfortunately, they seem to be shrinking in number. They are either going right or left or just tuned out.

There is no such thing as left, right, or center because if someone has an opinion then who declares that their opinion is either left or right or even center? Someone who believes in seccession, for example, may not fit anywhere on that scale but someone puts them on the right or the left. The question is why and who declares what is left or right. Can't someone just have an opinion without being lumped into a bunch of other people because that is what you are doing with left or right. Someone who believes in seccession gets thrown in with people who believes in abortion well what if we created a tough anti-abortion bill and the people in california decide to leave. Where would that put seccessionist then?

Do you see the point I am trying to make in that the scale really doesn't exist at all.

Yes, I agree left, right, and center are all a mater of opinion and are relative. I find myself in agreement with the left on social issues such as abortion and gay rights. On the healthcare bill, I don't like the way the bill was handled and it needs some serious changes, but I am glad it passed. I don't know what is in the Immigration Reform bill but I am pretty sure I will side with right on this. Unlike the left, I favor a strong military, but believe Iraq was mistake but we should be in Afghanistan. On taxes, I go with left and I am not near as pessimistic as the right is on our ability to handle the debt. So when I attend a Democratic or a Republican function, I don't fit in. I guess that makes me a centralist.

 

[Madeline]

Why does Freedom feel so good? Because it's natural and right. So come on Socialists/Progressives,let the people eat their salt.

The Nanny Laws:

Thy shall not buy a car that has no seatbelts

Thy shall not drive faster than 55 miles per hour

Thy shall not repaint a house with lead paint unless thou payeth a local lead-abatement specialist $500 or to wave his magic wand

Thou shall fear Radon, and no home with Radon Gas shall be sold to anyone. Abate or perish.

Thou shall not spank thy child, ever.

Etc.

No political party is 100% Officious Intermeddler Free. The Dems have hands no dirtier than the Republicans do. Officious Intermeddling is a favorite fucking hobby of most Congressmen, and has been since at least after WW II. If we weren't such fucking sheeple we would not allow them to pass laws to tell us how to wipe our own asses, but also, we are lining up to be sheared every damned time.

As an example, I give you My All Time Most Despised And Stupid Nanny Law:

The Smoking Ban

It has killed 30 - 50% of the restaurant and bar businesses in my neighborhood. Exactly where are the young people who relied on those waiting and bartending jobs supposed to find work now?

Taco Bell sure ain't hiring.

Say it with me, LibocalypseNow:

BBBBbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

[Qball]

I give liberals a hard time, but to be honest, I don't really mind people having liberal ideas. It's just that it seems like there's a heaping dose of hippy-dippy, do-your-own-thing narcissism that comes along with modern-day liberals that's off-putting.

 

[Madeline]

I give liberals a hard time, but to be honest, I don't really mind people having liberal ideas. It's just that it seems like there's a heaping dose of hippy-dippy, do-your-own-thing narcissism that comes along with modern-day liberals that's off-putting.

There's far too much sociopathic narcissism around these day, I agree. All the political parties's afficiandos seem to be afflicted by it. Apparently now, it is perfectly acceptable to fling any vitriol that meanders through one's repitliian brain without a moments's thought to whether you are addressing a child, a woman or an elderly person. Once upon a time, people had more fucking manners.

I kinda miss those days.

But then I am a retro chick...I even own some white gloves.

*Winks*

 

[code1211]

I give liberals a hard time, but to be honest, I don't really mind people having liberal ideas. It's just that it seems like there's a heaping dose of hippy-dippy, do-your-own-thing narcissism that comes along with modern-day liberals that's off-putting.

I don't have a problem with either extreme doing what they want to do as long as I'm not required to join their activities, pay for their activities, cheer lead for their activities or stop my activities as a result.

Some people feel that their freedom is abridged if they can't force me to do as they do.

I have a license plate on my car with the words "In God We Trust". I asked for it specifically because some self serving jack ass brought suit to assure that this plate would not be freely available with that set of words on it.

I didn't care if my plates had the words or not, but I just hope that the jack ass will be stuck in traffic behind me and get pissed off.

Get over it people. If what I do does not hurt you, then you are not hurt because I do it. If what you do makes you feel good, then go ahead and do it, but don't seek my support or approval. Just stay out my business and leave me the hell alone.