The Confederacy and States' Rights

Discussion in 'Education' started by Kevin_Kennedy, Aug 14, 2009.

  1. Kevin_Kennedy
    Offline

    Kevin_Kennedy Defend Liberty

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    17,590
    Thanks Received:
    1,581
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Location:
    Ohio
    Ratings:
    +2,027
    This thread is in response to an off-topic discussion in a thread on Israel's right to exist.

    I see no reason why the industrial revolution would have eroded states' rights, so I'll need you to clarify that position. As to the south not being able to survive independently, they certainly thought they were able to. They also did it successfully for the duration of the Civil War. Regardless of whether they could or not, it was their decision to make and Lincoln had no right to use force to make that decision for them.
     
  2. Old Rocks
    Offline

    Old Rocks Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    46,471
    Thanks Received:
    5,416
    Trophy Points:
    1,840
    Location:
    Portland, Ore.
    Ratings:
    +10,315
    Well, my great grandfather fought on the side that won, and decided the legality of that issue. The Civil War is over and done with. We decided that the United States was what the name said. Time to move on to today's issues, like a health care system that gives us what we pay for. Issues like energy independence. Issues like dealing with the warming world. Issues of asymetric warfare as practiced by various religious or ideological groups.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  3. Centrism'sVoice
    Offline

    Centrism'sVoice Seceded from USMB

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    813
    Thanks Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +58
    Interstate commerce was exploding, and a number of people had a major stake in keeping its rules uniform. Just look at the railroads.
    Not very well: the lack of manufacturing infrastructure doomed them from the beginning.
    Very few governments would allow a portion of their country to secede peacefully, unless the central government were so weak that it simply couldn't stop it. I don't see how you determine that the use of force was governed by any kind of "rights" issue: you'll need to elaborate on that.
     
  4. Kevin_Kennedy
    Offline

    Kevin_Kennedy Defend Liberty

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    17,590
    Thanks Received:
    1,581
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Location:
    Ohio
    Ratings:
    +2,027
    The war didn't decide the legality of anything concerning states' rights. Notice the Constitution was never amended to change states' rights or make secession illegal. One can discuss history and current events. If you see no reason to discuss the issue then there was no reason to respond.
     
  5. Kevin_Kennedy
    Offline

    Kevin_Kennedy Defend Liberty

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    17,590
    Thanks Received:
    1,581
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Location:
    Ohio
    Ratings:
    +2,027
    Interstate commerce wouldn't have been effected by states' rights as the Constitution gives the authority to regulate interstate commerce to the federal government. Had there been any discrepancies the federal government would have sought to change them.

    Yet they were advancing towards more manufacturing. Prominent Confederates Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee both expected that slavery would soon fall under it's own weight by simply not being economical, which is the same way it was ended in many of the northern states.

    However, the United States never was one central nation with one part simply wanting to break away. The United States was comprised of individual sovereign states that came together and formed a federal government to act as their agent, not a national government to act as their oppressor. Secession is a legitimate right of the states. The Constitution doesn't forbid them to secede from the Union, therefore they have the right to do so. Also, upon ratification Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island all reserved the right to leave the Union if they felt it became tyrannical.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  6. Old Rocks
    Offline

    Old Rocks Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    46,471
    Thanks Received:
    5,416
    Trophy Points:
    1,840
    Location:
    Portland, Ore.
    Ratings:
    +10,315
    LOL. Well, we are the United States of America. However much you might not like that, that is how it is. I have worn the uniform of this nation, I do not intend to see it descend into a set of Balkan states. I am sure that there are many that I normally cross swords with in the liberal versus conservative political debate that see the issue exactly the same as I do.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  7. Kevin_Kennedy
    Offline

    Kevin_Kennedy Defend Liberty

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    17,590
    Thanks Received:
    1,581
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Location:
    Ohio
    Ratings:
    +2,027
    Yes, we are the U.S.A., and the right to self-government is probably the most American of principles. Lincoln destroyed that principle.
     
  8. Sunni Man
    Offline

    Sunni Man Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    40,001
    Thanks Received:
    5,328
    Trophy Points:
    1,860
    Location:
    Patriotic American Muslim
    Ratings:
    +12,444
    "The War of Northern Aggression", also known in the northern states, as the Civil War.

    Was an illegal war and violated the Constitution.
     
  9. Kevin_Kennedy
    Offline

    Kevin_Kennedy Defend Liberty

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    17,590
    Thanks Received:
    1,581
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Location:
    Ohio
    Ratings:
    +2,027
    Not the only thing Lincoln did to violate the Constitution. Such as shutting down opposition newspapers in the north and deporting a U.S. Congressman from Ohio to the Confederacy for some comments he made in opposition to the administration.
     
  10. Centrism'sVoice
    Offline

    Centrism'sVoice Seceded from USMB

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    813
    Thanks Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +58
    I'm going to assume for argument's sake that all the above is accurate (although I have strong doubts). I'm sure that many people in the north, including Lincoln, were genuinely worried that allowing a peaceful secession would leave the remainder of the US vulnerable to foreign aggression. Certainly would have been my top concern if I were in the White House at that time. And of course, balkanization is never good for business.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1

Share This Page