The Bible, the only way to heaven

[AllieBaba]

You're mixing real life and Imaginary Land again, Shogun.

Or I could counter with an equally idiotic commentary....how many times has the state required you to submit unwillingly to full immersion baptism?

What a nutwad.

Am I? Praytell. You INSIST that allowing gays to marry "forces homosexuality down your throat" so, by all means, how much gay sex were you forced to have while homos were getting married in Ca? Come on, baba... don't tell me that you were not affected one iota!


Full emersion baptism isn't what was at stake in prop 8. Lord fucking knows your kind wishes the First Amendment were clipped enough to allow exactly that.

What a holy rolling bitch.

I wasn't discussing prop 8 you loon.

 

[AllieBaba]

Actually, there are plenty of logical and factual reasons to insist on the historical accuracy of the Bible.

No, there aren't. Demonstrate logically that the Bible is accurate and that people who choose not to follow it are going to hell.

The rest, it's about faith. You get it or you don't, you believe or you don't.

You've chosen the place your faith in Biblical accounts when they have no redeeming qualities that suggest they're of greater historical accuracy than Homer's Odyssey or The Epic of Gilgamesh. The Bible is a code of morals, not a history book. What you don't seem to understand is that the historical accuracy of Biblical allegories doesn't even matter; it's the moral teachings contained therein that you're supposed to be paying attention to. Believing that floods covered the entire world or that God created the world in seven days and insisting that these views are historically accurate is as silly as believing that Plato's allegory of the cave describes an actual historical event. You presumably were able to understand that "slow and steady wins the race" without taking the story of the tortoise and the hare literally, correct? Why are you and your ilk unable to do the same thing when it comes to the Bible?

Whether you think we should or not, we do and we have the right to do so.

And I'm free to point out the illogic in exercising that right.

http://www.slsoftware.com/study/html_outlines/Accuracy_Of_The_Bible.html#John2:13
"Thousands of cuneiform tablets have been found in different places in the middle east which date to the time covered in Genesis. One large cache of tablets was found at Tel Mardikh in Syria. These tablets are from the Empire of Ebla dating from around 2,000 BC. They confirm many details found in the Biblical stories about the Patriarchs."

"A. Recent excavations in eastern Egypt have found Israelite style houses which were built during the time before the Exodus.

B. An Egyptian monument called the Mereneptah Stela dating from 1210 BC describes an Egyptian invasion of Canaan. Israel is mentioned as being one of the nations defeated. This proves that Israel existed as a nation in Palestine during the period of the judges.

C. Excavation of ancient Philistine temples revealed an amazing detail. The structures were so built that two columns standing close together supported much of the weight of the building. It was determined that pushing them over would cause the whole temple to collapse. How did the writer of Judges 16:23-30 know that?"

A. Fortifications believed to have been built by king Saul have been found at the cite of ancient Gibeah, confirming 1 Samuel 10:26.

B. The water shaft through which David was able to make a surprise attack on Jerusalem, 2 Samuel 5:6-8, has been found.

C. Remains of a palace built during the period of David's reign have been found in the ancient part of Jerusalem. The stone carvings are of definite Phoenician design. This would appear to confirm 2 Samuel 5:9-11.

D. The very existence of David has been verified by a recent find. Part of a monument was found at Tel Dan in 1993 which refers to the "house of David" and "King of Israel".

E. While no extra-Biblical references have been found which mention Solomon, a series of archaeological discoveries point to his existence. 1 Kings 9:15 says that Solomon built fortified walls around Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer. Strong walls and elaborate gates of the same pattern have been found in each of these cities which date to the time of Solomon.

A. The invasion of Shishak recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26 is verified by an Egyptian wall relief found in Karnak, Egypt.

B. Ahab's house of ivory and the pool of Samaria where they washed his chariot have been found , 1 Kings 22:38-39.

C. The Moabite stone is a monument that was carved by Mesha, king of Moab, in 850 BC. It confirms most of the Biblical story recorded in 2 Kings 3:4-27. It specifically refers to David, Omri, and several of the cities listed in the Bible.

D. The Black Obelisk is an Assyrian monument dating to 840 BC. It pictures Jehu, king of Israel, bowing and paying tribute to the king of Assyria. The reign of Jehu is described in 2 Kings 9-10.

E. Isaiah 20:1 says Sargon, king of Assyria, captured Ashdod. Absence of confirming evidence caused skeptics to question the existence of Sargon for many years. But then his palace was discovered in 1843 and a victory stela commemorating his victory over Ashdod was discovered in the ruins of Ashdod itself in 1963.

F. 2 Kings 18:13-19:37 describes the invasion of Judah by Sennacherib, king of Assyria. Many of the details of this story have been remarkably verified by archaeological discoveries. The Assyrian siege of Lachish has been verified by excavations and a large relief found in Sennacherib's palace. The fact that Sennacherib was unable to take Jerusalem is verified by his own account recorded on a monument known as the Taylor Prism which dates to 689 BC. The Bible records that Sennacherib was murdered by his own son, 2 Kings 19:37. This fact was verified when a clay tablet was found in the royal archives of Nineveh giving the same account.

G. Details of the invasion of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar mentioned by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 34:7 have been dramatically verified. Letters written on Ostraca were found in the ruins of Lachish which were written to the commader of Lachish from another outpost in the fight. The letters specifically mention Lachish and Azekah, the last strongholds to fall according to Jeremiah 34:7. One of the letters specifically mentions a prophet, possibly Jeremiah. Babylonian records verify parts of the Biblical account such as the deposing of Jehoiachin, 2 Kings 24:10-17, and the provisions supplied to him according to 2 Kings 25:27-30.

H. A very remarkable find in recent years was the discovery in Palestine of a pair of ancient clay bullae which bear the name of Baruch, son Neriah. Bullae were clay nodules that were used to seal important documents and items. They bear the impression of the seal mark of the owner. Since these particular bullae date to the correct time period, they are believed to be the seal marks of the scribe Baruch, son of Neriah, who recorded the book of Jeremiah, Jeremiah 36:4.

I. Another exciting find was the discovery of some small silver scrolls in 1979. These scrolls were found inside a Jerusalem tomb and are dated to around 600 BC, shortly before the Israelites' exile in Babylon. They contain a prayer from Numbers 6:24-26. Skeptics had long claimed that the early books of the Bible had not been written until the time of the exile or afterward, but this find has proven that at least portions of the Torah existed before the exile.

 

[Kalam]

Actually, there are plenty of logical and factual reasons to insist on the historical accuracy of the Bible.

No, there aren't. Demonstrate logically that the Bible is accurate and that people who choose not to follow it are going to hell.


You've chosen the place your faith in Biblical accounts when they have no redeeming qualities that suggest they're of greater historical accuracy than Homer's Odyssey or The Epic of Gilgamesh. The Bible is a code of morals, not a history book. What you don't seem to understand is that the historical accuracy of Biblical allegories doesn't even matter; it's the moral teachings contained therein that you're supposed to be paying attention to. Believing that floods covered the entire world or that God created the world in seven days and insisting that these views are historically accurate is as silly as believing that Plato's allegory of the cave describes an actual historical event. You presumably were able to understand that "slow and steady wins the race" without taking the story of the tortoise and the hare literally, correct? Why are you and your ilk unable to do the same thing when it comes to the Bible?

Whether you think we should or not, we do and we have the right to do so.

And I'm free to point out the illogic in exercising that right.

Sure. Until you start to discriminate against those who believe.

Never have, don't plan to. Now... about those "logical and factual reasons"...

 

[Agnapostate]

The modern books of the Bible were adopted upon the whims of a certain sect of Christianity that is the ancestor of all modern sects, that was effectively cemented in history by the teachings of Athanasius. There are several books and passages in the Bible that are considered forgeries, and there are also several other books that were allegedly also written by disciples of Jesus, yet not added to the Bible.

 

[Shogun]

You're mixing real life and Imaginary Land again, Shogun.

Or I could counter with an equally idiotic commentary....how many times has the state required you to submit unwillingly to full immersion baptism?

What a nutwad.

Am I? Praytell. You INSIST that allowing gays to marry "forces homosexuality down your throat" so, by all means, how much gay sex were you forced to have while homos were getting married in Ca? Come on, baba... don't tell me that you were not affected one iota!


Full emersion baptism isn't what was at stake in prop 8. Lord fucking knows your kind wishes the First Amendment were clipped enough to allow exactly that.

What a holy rolling bitch.

I wasn't discussing prop 8 you loon.

I am since it is an exact example of the flawed faith of modern pharisee christians. You've made your bed..

 

[AllieBaba]

"Nelson Glueck, the renowned Jewish archeologist, wrote that 'it may be stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.' " (p. 68)
Inspiration: The Bible and Archaeology

 

[AllieBaba]

Shogun, you truly do live in an alternate universe. Once again, you've gone off the deep end, proved nothing and yet strut around declaring yourself the victor. Of what, nobody but you can possibly know.

 

[Agnapostate]

"Nelson Glueck, the renowned Jewish archeologist, wrote that 'it may be stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.' " (p. 68)
Inspiration: The Bible and Archaeology

What about the Census of Quirinius?

 

[AllieBaba]

what about it?

 

[Agnapostate]

Isn't that an instance of Scripture clearly conflicting with the established historical record?

 

[AllieBaba]

Nope.

"Remember, the census in AD 6 is NOT the one of Luke 2.2 (of 8-6 BC.)...but the census of AD 6 DID hit the Jews pretty heavily...at least 600 talents as a nation acc. to Josephus (Antiq. 17.320; Jewish War 2.97--cited in Jeremias' Jerusalem in the Times of Jesus: An investigation into the economic and social conditions during the New Testament period,Fortress: 1969). As a national tax, it DID effect the Jewish folk--loads like this are ALWAYS 'distributed to the people'(!) in addition to the already oppressive tax structure of the Herods...

And Luke does NOT place the 'worldwide census' at the time of the AD 6 tax...but rather puts it some time BEFORE the Syrian-based one in 7-5 BC...

But more accurately, Luke was probably not referring to a taxation census at all--simply a "registration". Registrations were normally associated with (1) taxation (above discussion); (2) military service (Jews were exempt) and (3) special government "ballots". We have conclusive evidence that an empire-wide (in decree, not necessarily execution, of course) registration occurred in the time frame described by Luke! Martin [CKC:89-90] summarizes the literary, archeological, and iconographic evidence for this:

" A sixth reason for placing the nativity of Jesus in 3 or 2 B.C. isthe coincidence of this date with the New Testament account that Jesus was born at the time when a Roman census was being conducted: "There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the IRoman] world should be registered" (Luke 2:1). Historians have not been able to find any empire-wide census or registration in the years 7-5 B.C., but there is a reference to such a registration of all the Roman people not long before 5 February 2 B.C. written by Caesar Augustus himself: "While I was administering my thirteenth consulship [2 B.C.] the senate and the equestrian order and the entire Roman people gave me the title Father of my Country" (Res Gestae 35, italics added). This award was given to Augustus on 5 February 2 B.C., therefore the registration of citizen approval must have taken place in 3 B.C. Orosius, in the fifth century, also said that Roman records of his time revealed that a census was indeed held when Augustus was made "the first of men"--an apt description of his award "Father of the Country"--at a time when all the great nations gave an oath of obedience to Augustus (6:22, 7:2). Orosius dated the census to 3 B.C. And besides that, Josephus substantiates that an oath of obedience to Augustus was required in Judea not long before the death of Herod (Antiquities I7:4I-45). This agrees nicely in a chronological sense with what Luke records. But more than that, an inscription found in Paphlagonia (eastern Turkey), also dated to 3 B.C., mentions an "oath sworn by all the people in the land at the altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts." And dovetailing precisely with this inscription, the early (fifth century) Armenian historian, Moses of Khoren, said the census that brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem was conducted by Roman agents in Armenia where they set up "the image of Augustus Caesar in every temple.''. The similarity of this language is strikingly akin to the wording on the Paphlagonian inscription describing the oath taken in 3 B.C. These indications can allow us to reasonably conclude that the oath (of Josephus, the Paphlagonian inscription, and Orosius) and the census (mentioned by Luke, Orosius, and Moses of Khoren) were one and the same. All of these things happened in 3 B.C."
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quirinius.html

 

[Agnapostate]

"Remember, the census in AD 6 is NOT the one of Luke 2.2 (of 8-6 BC.)...but the census of AD 6 DID hit the Jews pretty heavily...at least 600 talents as a nation acc. to Josephus (Antiq. 17.320; Jewish War 2.97--cited in Jeremias' Jerusalem in the Times of Jesus: An investigation into the economic and social conditions during the New Testament period,Fortress: 1969). As a national tax, it DID effect the Jewish folk--loads like this are ALWAYS 'distributed to the people'(!) in addition to the already oppressive tax structure of the Herods...

And Luke does NOT place the 'worldwide census' at the time of the AD 6 tax...but rather puts it some time BEFORE the Syrian-based one in 7-5 BC...

I've seen this piece before, and it grows no less inaccurate over time. Publius Sulpicius Quirinius governed Syria during A.D. 6-9. If you contend that the census occurred in 8-6 B.C., then Luke's claim that "Quirinius was governing Syria" is clearly inaccurate. Egyptian records also indicate that the previous census was ordered in 8 B.C., whereas the earliest possible date for Christ's birth is considered to be 6 B.C.

Moreover...

" A sixth reason for placing the nativity of Jesus in 3 or 2 B.C. isthe coincidence of this date with the New Testament account that Jesus was born at the time when a Roman census was being conducted:

This is similarly inaccurate; placing Christ's DOB after 4 B.C. creates other chronological problems and conflicts.

I also find it rather amusing that some adapt the alleged political stability of the region in order to selectively support their own claims. Gamaliel reported in Acts 5:37 that the Census of Quirinius caused a violent revolt (you might remember King David's sinful military census, which they might have had in mind), but these other registrations are apparently immediately administered?

 

[Kalam]

"Thousands of cuneiform tablets have been found in different places in the middle east which date to the time covered in Genesis. One large cache of tablets was found at Tel Mardikh in Syria. These tablets are from the Empire of Ebla dating from around 2,000 BC. They confirm many details found in the Biblical stories about the Patriarchs."

"A. Recent excavations in eastern Egypt have found Israelite style houses which were built during the time before the Exodus.

B. An Egyptian monument called the Mereneptah Stela dating from 1210 BC describes an Egyptian invasion of Canaan. Israel is mentioned as being one of the nations defeated. This proves that Israel existed as a nation in Palestine during the period of the judges.

C. Excavation of ancient Philistine temples revealed an amazing detail. The structures were so built that two columns standing close together supported much of the weight of the building. It was determined that pushing them over would cause the whole temple to collapse. How did the writer of Judges 16:23-30 know that?"

A. Fortifications believed to have been built by king Saul have been found at the cite of ancient Gibeah, confirming 1 Samuel 10:26.

B. The water shaft through which David was able to make a surprise attack on Jerusalem, 2 Samuel 5:6-8, has been found.

C. Remains of a palace built during the period of David's reign have been found in the ancient part of Jerusalem. The stone carvings are of definite Phoenician design. This would appear to confirm 2 Samuel 5:9-11.

D. The very existence of David has been verified by a recent find. Part of a monument was found at Tel Dan in 1993 which refers to the "house of David" and "King of Israel".

E. While no extra-Biblical references have been found which mention Solomon, a series of archaeological discoveries point to his existence. 1 Kings 9:15 says that Solomon built fortified walls around Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer. Strong walls and elaborate gates of the same pattern have been found in each of these cities which date to the time of Solomon.

A. The invasion of Shishak recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26 is verified by an Egyptian wall relief found in Karnak, Egypt.

B. Ahab's house of ivory and the pool of Samaria where they washed his chariot have been found , 1 Kings 22:38-39.

C. The Moabite stone is a monument that was carved by Mesha, king of Moab, in 850 BC. It confirms most of the Biblical story recorded in 2 Kings 3:4-27. It specifically refers to David, Omri, and several of the cities listed in the Bible.

D. The Black Obelisk is an Assyrian monument dating to 840 BC. It pictures Jehu, king of Israel, bowing and paying tribute to the king of Assyria. The reign of Jehu is described in 2 Kings 9-10.

E. Isaiah 20:1 says Sargon, king of Assyria, captured Ashdod. Absence of confirming evidence caused skeptics to question the existence of Sargon for many years. But then his palace was discovered in 1843 and a victory stela commemorating his victory over Ashdod was discovered in the ruins of Ashdod itself in 1963.

F. 2 Kings 18:13-19:37 describes the invasion of Judah by Sennacherib, king of Assyria. Many of the details of this story have been remarkably verified by archaeological discoveries. The Assyrian siege of Lachish has been verified by excavations and a large relief found in Sennacherib's palace. The fact that Sennacherib was unable to take Jerusalem is verified by his own account recorded on a monument known as the Taylor Prism which dates to 689 BC. The Bible records that Sennacherib was murdered by his own son, 2 Kings 19:37. This fact was verified when a clay tablet was found in the royal archives of Nineveh giving the same account.

G. Details of the invasion of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar mentioned by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 34:7 have been dramatically verified. Letters written on Ostraca were found in the ruins of Lachish which were written to the commader of Lachish from another outpost in the fight. The letters specifically mention Lachish and Azekah, the last strongholds to fall according to Jeremiah 34:7. One of the letters specifically mentions a prophet, possibly Jeremiah. Babylonian records verify parts of the Biblical account such as the deposing of Jehoiachin, 2 Kings 24:10-17, and the provisions supplied to him according to 2 Kings 25:27-30.

H. A very remarkable find in recent years was the discovery in Palestine of a pair of ancient clay bullae which bear the name of Baruch, son Neriah. Bullae were clay nodules that were used to seal important documents and items. They bear the impression of the seal mark of the owner. Since these particular bullae date to the correct time period, they are believed to be the seal marks of the scribe Baruch, son of Neriah, who recorded the book of Jeremiah, Jeremiah 36:4.

I. Another exciting find was the discovery of some small silver scrolls in 1979. These scrolls were found inside a Jerusalem tomb and are dated to around 600 BC, shortly before the Israelites' exile in Babylon. They contain a prayer from Numbers 6:24-26. Skeptics had long claimed that the early books of the Bible had not been written until the time of the exile or afterward, but this find has proven that at least portions of the Torah existed before the exile.

Heinrich Schliemann discovered the archaeological site of Troy in the 19th century. He also discovered the ruins of ancient Mycenae in Greece. Moreover, the landscape and other geographical features surrounding both areas seem to fit the descriptions offered in Homer's Iliad. Records were discovered indicating the existence of a Mycenaean man by the name of "Achilles," and Hittite documents from the period suggest that a city located in the same area as Troy was, in fact, under siege.

Knowing all of this, do you believe that the Greeks waged war against the Trojans over Helen and that the Greek pantheon actively participated in this war and manipulated humans on both sides? After all, certain parts of the Iliad have been shown to be consistent with archaeological evidence. Clearly, this makes it logical to believe in Zeus, Hera, etc.

 

[edthecynic]

Nope.

"Remember, the census in AD 6 is NOT the one of Luke 2.2 (of 8-6 BC.)...but the census of AD 6 DID hit the Jews pretty heavily...at least 600 talents as a nation acc. to Josephus (Antiq. 17.320; Jewish War 2.97--cited in Jeremias' Jerusalem in the Times of Jesus: An investigation into the economic and social conditions during the New Testament period,Fortress: 1969). As a national tax, it DID effect the Jewish folk--loads like this are ALWAYS 'distributed to the people'(!) in addition to the already oppressive tax structure of the Herods...

And Luke does NOT place the 'worldwide census' at the time of the AD 6 tax...but rather puts it some time BEFORE the Syrian-based one in 7-5 BC...

But more accurately, Luke was probably not referring to a taxation census at all--simply a "registration". Registrations were normally associated with (1) taxation (above discussion); (2) military service (Jews were exempt) and (3) special government "ballots". We have conclusive evidence that an empire-wide (in decree, not necessarily execution, of course) registration occurred in the time frame described by Luke! Martin [CKC:89-90] summarizes the literary, archeological, and iconographic evidence for this:

" A sixth reason for placing the nativity of Jesus in 3 or 2 B.C. isthe coincidence of this date with the New Testament account that Jesus was born at the time when a Roman census was being conducted: "There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the IRoman] world should be registered" (Luke 2:1). Historians have not been able to find any empire-wide census or registration in the years 7-5 B.C., but there is a reference to such a registration of all the Roman people not long before 5 February 2 B.C. written by Caesar Augustus himself: "While I was administering my thirteenth consulship [2 B.C.] the senate and the equestrian order and the entire Roman people gave me the title Father of my Country" (Res Gestae 35, italics added). This award was given to Augustus on 5 February 2 B.C., therefore the registration of citizen approval must have taken place in 3 B.C. Orosius, in the fifth century, also said that Roman records of his time revealed that a census was indeed held when Augustus was made "the first of men"--an apt description of his award "Father of the Country"--at a time when all the great nations gave an oath of obedience to Augustus (6:22, 7:2). Orosius dated the census to 3 B.C. And besides that, Josephus substantiates that an oath of obedience to Augustus was required in Judea not long before the death of Herod (Antiquities I7:4I-45). This agrees nicely in a chronological sense with what Luke records. But more than that, an inscription found in Paphlagonia (eastern Turkey), also dated to 3 B.C., mentions an "oath sworn by all the people in the land at the altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts." And dovetailing precisely with this inscription, the early (fifth century) Armenian historian, Moses of Khoren, said the census that brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem was conducted by Roman agents in Armenia where they set up "the image of Augustus Caesar in every temple.''. The similarity of this language is strikingly akin to the wording on the Paphlagonian inscription describing the oath taken in 3 B.C. These indications can allow us to reasonably conclude that the oath (of Josephus, the Paphlagonian inscription, and Orosius) and the census (mentioned by Luke, Orosius, and Moses of Khoren) were one and the same. All of these things happened in 3 B.C."
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quirinius.html

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Herod

The death of Herod is important in its relation to the birth of Christ. The eclipse mentioned by Josephus (Ant., XVII, vi, 4), who also gives the length of Herod's reign -- thirty-seven years from the time he was appointed by the Romans, 40 B.C.; or thirty-four from the death of Antigonus, 37 B.C. (Ant., XVII, viii, 1)-- fixes the death of Herod in the spring of 750 A. U. C., or 4 B.C. Christ was born before Herod's death (Matthew 2:1), but how long before is uncertain: the possible dates lie between 746 and 750 A. U. C. (see a summary of opinions and reasons in Gigot, "Outlines of N. T. Hist.", 42, 43).

.

 

[AllieBaba]

This is quibbling, and will be resolved.

But as I said before, you can't convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.

 

[AllieBaba]

"Thousands of cuneiform tablets have been found in different places in the middle east which date to the time covered in Genesis. One large cache of tablets was found at Tel Mardikh in Syria. These tablets are from the Empire of Ebla dating from around 2,000 BC. They confirm many details found in the Biblical stories about the Patriarchs."

"A. Recent excavations in eastern Egypt have found Israelite style houses which were built during the time before the Exodus.

B. An Egyptian monument called the Mereneptah Stela dating from 1210 BC describes an Egyptian invasion of Canaan. Israel is mentioned as being one of the nations defeated. This proves that Israel existed as a nation in Palestine during the period of the judges.

C. Excavation of ancient Philistine temples revealed an amazing detail. The structures were so built that two columns standing close together supported much of the weight of the building. It was determined that pushing them over would cause the whole temple to collapse. How did the writer of Judges 16:23-30 know that?"

A. Fortifications believed to have been built by king Saul have been found at the cite of ancient Gibeah, confirming 1 Samuel 10:26.

B. The water shaft through which David was able to make a surprise attack on Jerusalem, 2 Samuel 5:6-8, has been found.

C. Remains of a palace built during the period of David's reign have been found in the ancient part of Jerusalem. The stone carvings are of definite Phoenician design. This would appear to confirm 2 Samuel 5:9-11.

D. The very existence of David has been verified by a recent find. Part of a monument was found at Tel Dan in 1993 which refers to the "house of David" and "King of Israel".

E. While no extra-Biblical references have been found which mention Solomon, a series of archaeological discoveries point to his existence. 1 Kings 9:15 says that Solomon built fortified walls around Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer. Strong walls and elaborate gates of the same pattern have been found in each of these cities which date to the time of Solomon.

A. The invasion of Shishak recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26 is verified by an Egyptian wall relief found in Karnak, Egypt.

B. Ahab's house of ivory and the pool of Samaria where they washed his chariot have been found , 1 Kings 22:38-39.

C. The Moabite stone is a monument that was carved by Mesha, king of Moab, in 850 BC. It confirms most of the Biblical story recorded in 2 Kings 3:4-27. It specifically refers to David, Omri, and several of the cities listed in the Bible.

D. The Black Obelisk is an Assyrian monument dating to 840 BC. It pictures Jehu, king of Israel, bowing and paying tribute to the king of Assyria. The reign of Jehu is described in 2 Kings 9-10.

E. Isaiah 20:1 says Sargon, king of Assyria, captured Ashdod. Absence of confirming evidence caused skeptics to question the existence of Sargon for many years. But then his palace was discovered in 1843 and a victory stela commemorating his victory over Ashdod was discovered in the ruins of Ashdod itself in 1963.

F. 2 Kings 18:13-19:37 describes the invasion of Judah by Sennacherib, king of Assyria. Many of the details of this story have been remarkably verified by archaeological discoveries. The Assyrian siege of Lachish has been verified by excavations and a large relief found in Sennacherib's palace. The fact that Sennacherib was unable to take Jerusalem is verified by his own account recorded on a monument known as the Taylor Prism which dates to 689 BC. The Bible records that Sennacherib was murdered by his own son, 2 Kings 19:37. This fact was verified when a clay tablet was found in the royal archives of Nineveh giving the same account.

G. Details of the invasion of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar mentioned by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 34:7 have been dramatically verified. Letters written on Ostraca were found in the ruins of Lachish which were written to the commader of Lachish from another outpost in the fight. The letters specifically mention Lachish and Azekah, the last strongholds to fall according to Jeremiah 34:7. One of the letters specifically mentions a prophet, possibly Jeremiah. Babylonian records verify parts of the Biblical account such as the deposing of Jehoiachin, 2 Kings 24:10-17, and the provisions supplied to him according to 2 Kings 25:27-30.

H. A very remarkable find in recent years was the discovery in Palestine of a pair of ancient clay bullae which bear the name of Baruch, son Neriah. Bullae were clay nodules that were used to seal important documents and items. They bear the impression of the seal mark of the owner. Since these particular bullae date to the correct time period, they are believed to be the seal marks of the scribe Baruch, son of Neriah, who recorded the book of Jeremiah, Jeremiah 36:4.

I. Another exciting find was the discovery of some small silver scrolls in 1979. These scrolls were found inside a Jerusalem tomb and are dated to around 600 BC, shortly before the Israelites' exile in Babylon. They contain a prayer from Numbers 6:24-26. Skeptics had long claimed that the early books of the Bible had not been written until the time of the exile or afterward, but this find has proven that at least portions of the Torah existed before the exile.

Heinrich Schliemann discovered the archaeological site of Troy in the 19th century. He also discovered the ruins of ancient Mycenae in Greece. Moreover, the landscape and other geographical features surrounding both areas seem to fit the descriptions offered in Homer's Iliad. Records were discovered indicating the existence of a Mycenaean man by the name of "Achilles," and Hittite documents from the period suggest that a city located in the same area as Troy was, in fact, under siege.

Knowing all of this, do you believe that the Greeks waged war against the Trojans over Helen and that the Greek pantheon actively participated in this war and manipulated humans on both sides? After all, certain parts of the Iliad have been shown to be consistent with archaeological evidence. Clearly, this makes it logical to believe in Zeus, Hera, etc.

The Iliad doesn't claim to be written by God nor does it establish itself as a holy text.

It's just a story. Maybe parts of it are true, maybe not. But it never professes to be anything else.

 

[AllieBaba]

P.S.: Do you know how tired the comparison to the Iliad is?

 

[Kalam]

Even comedians seem to be more on top of this issue than Bible literalists. Please... join us in the 21st century.

Penn & Teller - The Bible is bullshit - Inaccuracies, inconsistencies and impossibili...

 

[Kalam]

"Thousands of cuneiform tablets have been found in different places in the middle east which date to the time covered in Genesis. One large cache of tablets was found at Tel Mardikh in Syria. These tablets are from the Empire of Ebla dating from around 2,000 BC. They confirm many details found in the Biblical stories about the Patriarchs."

"A. Recent excavations in eastern Egypt have found Israelite style houses which were built during the time before the Exodus.

B. An Egyptian monument called the Mereneptah Stela dating from 1210 BC describes an Egyptian invasion of Canaan. Israel is mentioned as being one of the nations defeated. This proves that Israel existed as a nation in Palestine during the period of the judges.

C. Excavation of ancient Philistine temples revealed an amazing detail. The structures were so built that two columns standing close together supported much of the weight of the building. It was determined that pushing them over would cause the whole temple to collapse. How did the writer of Judges 16:23-30 know that?"

A. Fortifications believed to have been built by king Saul have been found at the cite of ancient Gibeah, confirming 1 Samuel 10:26.

B. The water shaft through which David was able to make a surprise attack on Jerusalem, 2 Samuel 5:6-8, has been found.

C. Remains of a palace built during the period of David's reign have been found in the ancient part of Jerusalem. The stone carvings are of definite Phoenician design. This would appear to confirm 2 Samuel 5:9-11.

D. The very existence of David has been verified by a recent find. Part of a monument was found at Tel Dan in 1993 which refers to the "house of David" and "King of Israel".

E. While no extra-Biblical references have been found which mention Solomon, a series of archaeological discoveries point to his existence. 1 Kings 9:15 says that Solomon built fortified walls around Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer. Strong walls and elaborate gates of the same pattern have been found in each of these cities which date to the time of Solomon.

A. The invasion of Shishak recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26 is verified by an Egyptian wall relief found in Karnak, Egypt.

B. Ahab's house of ivory and the pool of Samaria where they washed his chariot have been found , 1 Kings 22:38-39.

C. The Moabite stone is a monument that was carved by Mesha, king of Moab, in 850 BC. It confirms most of the Biblical story recorded in 2 Kings 3:4-27. It specifically refers to David, Omri, and several of the cities listed in the Bible.

D. The Black Obelisk is an Assyrian monument dating to 840 BC. It pictures Jehu, king of Israel, bowing and paying tribute to the king of Assyria. The reign of Jehu is described in 2 Kings 9-10.

E. Isaiah 20:1 says Sargon, king of Assyria, captured Ashdod. Absence of confirming evidence caused skeptics to question the existence of Sargon for many years. But then his palace was discovered in 1843 and a victory stela commemorating his victory over Ashdod was discovered in the ruins of Ashdod itself in 1963.

F. 2 Kings 18:13-19:37 describes the invasion of Judah by Sennacherib, king of Assyria. Many of the details of this story have been remarkably verified by archaeological discoveries. The Assyrian siege of Lachish has been verified by excavations and a large relief found in Sennacherib's palace. The fact that Sennacherib was unable to take Jerusalem is verified by his own account recorded on a monument known as the Taylor Prism which dates to 689 BC. The Bible records that Sennacherib was murdered by his own son, 2 Kings 19:37. This fact was verified when a clay tablet was found in the royal archives of Nineveh giving the same account.

G. Details of the invasion of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar mentioned by Jeremiah in Jeremiah 34:7 have been dramatically verified. Letters written on Ostraca were found in the ruins of Lachish which were written to the commader of Lachish from another outpost in the fight. The letters specifically mention Lachish and Azekah, the last strongholds to fall according to Jeremiah 34:7. One of the letters specifically mentions a prophet, possibly Jeremiah. Babylonian records verify parts of the Biblical account such as the deposing of Jehoiachin, 2 Kings 24:10-17, and the provisions supplied to him according to 2 Kings 25:27-30.

H. A very remarkable find in recent years was the discovery in Palestine of a pair of ancient clay bullae which bear the name of Baruch, son Neriah. Bullae were clay nodules that were used to seal important documents and items. They bear the impression of the seal mark of the owner. Since these particular bullae date to the correct time period, they are believed to be the seal marks of the scribe Baruch, son of Neriah, who recorded the book of Jeremiah, Jeremiah 36:4.

I. Another exciting find was the discovery of some small silver scrolls in 1979. These scrolls were found inside a Jerusalem tomb and are dated to around 600 BC, shortly before the Israelites' exile in Babylon. They contain a prayer from Numbers 6:24-26. Skeptics had long claimed that the early books of the Bible had not been written until the time of the exile or afterward, but this find has proven that at least portions of the Torah existed before the exile.

Heinrich Schliemann discovered the archaeological site of Troy in the 19th century. He also discovered the ruins of ancient Mycenae in Greece. Moreover, the landscape and other geographical features surrounding both areas seem to fit the descriptions offered in Homer's Iliad. Records were discovered indicating the existence of a Mycenaean man by the name of "Achilles," and Hittite documents from the period suggest that a city located in the same area as Troy was, in fact, under siege.

Knowing all of this, do you believe that the Greeks waged war against the Trojans over Helen and that the Greek pantheon actively participated in this war and manipulated humans on both sides? After all, certain parts of the Iliad have been shown to be consistent with archaeological evidence. Clearly, this makes it logical to believe in Zeus, Hera, etc.

The Iliad doesn't claim to be written by God nor does it establish itself as a holy text.

It's just a story. Maybe parts of it are true, maybe not. But it never professes to be anything else.

Is it true?

 

[AllieBaba]

Who cares?