Mike Huckabee is the next president of the U.S.

[pegwinn]

God exists

The Bible, the Torah, the Quran (Koran?), the Book of Mormon, and Bagda-something or other, are all works of men who received Divine Inspiration. Men are not perfect, thus thier understanding of the inspiration wasn't either.

Additionally, men of that time were as children. How do we explain things to children? In simple terms that an adult would find fallacious. Today, humanity might have risen to the level of preteen or so.

Lack of perfect understanding is why we have so many different religious philosophies and sects.

Evolution? Either it happened as the fossil record shows, and Gods Days are a tad longer than ours....... or an Omnipotent God planted the "evidence" to keep inquisitive kids busy while building on our ability to think. I see Evolution as an explanation of HOW God did what was recorded imperfectly in the various holy books. Kind of like a blueprint to explain the pyramids.

If I live my life as if God exists and If I am wrong, I will never know it.
If I live my life as if God doesn't exist, and I am wrong I will know it, and regret it forever.

Just my two cents.
Don't get me started on Heaven and Hell.

 

[Dr Grump]

God does not exist.

It was an invention made by man to explain the unexplainable. A lot of which, over time, has been explained.

I agree that it makes sense to believe and live your life as if god exists because the pay off is huge if he does.

I'll take my chances debating the point at the Pearly Gates if I'm proved wrong..

 

[pegwinn]

God does not exist. Since neither of us can prove the point, this is a good time to agree to disagree no?
It was an invention made by man to explain the unexplainable. A lot of which, over time, has been explained.

I agree that it makes sense to believe and live your life as if god exists because the pay off is huge if he does.

I'll take my chances debating the point at the Pearly Gates if I'm proved wrong..

Just curious, but how do you combat the depression that I would think would have to come as you age and mortality stares at you longer and longer? It's only human to not like the idea that there will come a point where you will not exist. And, is it just me or would it make sense that of all people the non-believers would hold life to be even more precious since they believe that this is all there is?

 

[Dr Grump]

Just curious, but how do you combat the depression that I would think would have to come as you age and mortality stares at you longer and longer? It's only human to not like the idea that there will come a point where you will not exist. And, is it just me or would it make sense that of all people the non-believers would hold life to be even more precious since they believe that this is all there is?

An interesting and true point. It does get depressing as I get older, but I live with it. I hold life very precious, which is why I believe a person should be able to choose if they go to war or not. To me they only have one life to live and if they believe a war is wrong, then they should be able to opt out..

 

[Lookout]

God does not exist.

It was an invention made by man to explain the unexplainable. A lot of which, over time, has been explained.

I agree that it makes sense to believe and live your life as if god exists because the pay off is huge if he does.

I'll take my chances debating the point at the Pearly Gates if I'm proved wrong..

Only one flaw with that theory. At the pearly gates there will be no debating. If you are proved wrong, you get a one way non stop ticket. This is the only debating platform you will have. The Pearly Gates is not a trial. It is judgement and sentencing. This lifetime you have is the trial and it does not sound like you have a very good attorney to me.

C-mon Dr. Gump...Go ahead and make the stand I used to make. I used to say that if the God depicted in the Holy Bible exists, we need to hunt it down and kill it before it does more dammage. I have repented from that statement and nothing could be further from the truth for me now. But hey, I see it this way. If you don't believe there is a God then why not Blaspheme as hard and heavy as you possibly can? If you do not have the Juevos to cast down the bible and condem it to the trash heap and totally Go after the God depicted in it as a Liar, a murderer, A child killer, a child abuser, and many other things, then you might have that little something inside you that says..."Wow, I need to take another look at this and maybe change my thinking. It sounds like you have some doubt in your statements. If there is no more doubt in your mind that God doesn't exist, then trash it to hell. If you can't do that, you might want to take another look. If you do, do that, be prepared for a wild ride!

 

[Lookout]

I would retort that Leviticus is about as indicative in conveying the will of god as is Moroni is to non-mormons. By Leviticus, Moses is already forming laws that directly reflect the behaviours of man rather than a will of god similar to the entire reason for the ten commandments. From this angle, Moses is nothing more than a jewish Jo Smith. I'm not asking for what MOSES claimes that god thinks.


God did the 7 days. In that time he made man Gen 1. Then he made Adam & eve chapter 2.

If this is the case then why would he SPECIFICALLY make it clear that his work was done in 2:1-4?


The incest would take place if he did not make other people before Adam & Eve. Not from the rib bone.

But, again, remove the Moses filter and show me where GOD conveyed as much without a human mouth familiar with human culture to say as much. Where is the scripture to suggest that Adam and Eve were not the first humans. for that matter, why even say anything about adam and eve if they were not? How would EARLIER humans than adam and eve have circumvented the retribution for Eves sin if they came BEFORE Eden and the temptation? Were those earlier humans not ALREADY having sex by the time Adam and Eve were created? If so, what's the point of the story then?




The tree in the garden of good and evil wasn't an actual apple. It was Satan talking Eve into having sex. The first thing she did after comming(no pun intended) from the tree was have sex with Adam.

can you show me scripure to back that up? I see nothing in Ch 3 that remotely suggests that the fruit from the tree of knowledge was sex.

In fact, sex couldn't have been the temptation since GOD specifically stated for his creation to multiply. I'm thinking that the beasts didn't begin humping AFTER eve ate the proverbial fruit.



3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Seems pretty clear from this angle..


Cain is the seed of satan and Abel is the seed of Adam.

um, I'm afraid i'm going to have to ask for evident scipture.


That is why Cain slew Abel.

1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

It seems to read that Cain was, in fact, the progeny of A&E. From how I read the bible Cain slew able because god rejected his fruit offering while accepting able's offering of meat. I see nothing indicating anything about Cain's paternal satanic father.



The first "Man" God made did not have souls.

um, scripture evidence please. I hope you are not referring to the Nephelim here.




Adam was the first "Man" God gave a soul to. Cain went to Nod and took a wife because there were already people before Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel. The decendants of Cain were and are the Kenites. Cain was the spawn of satan. Eventually Eve has another child by Adam named Seth which begins the lineage to Noah. God found favor and Grace with Noah because he was not a Kenite. He then tried to wipe out all the bad seed with the flood. The reason God was so pissed is because he gave Adam a soul, which in turn gave Eve a soul. Any Children comming from her would have a soul be it from Adam or from Satan. Any children of Cain would be a soul decendant of Satan. THats why God was so pissed and tried to kill all the Kenites with the flood.



What denomination are you again? I respect your opinions but I'm hella curious which denomination takes this angle. Doesn't this perspective assume that pre-eden humanity was already sinful regardless of Eves actions? Don't you think it's awfully FUNNY how MOSES seems to indicate that GOD favors HIS lineage above ALL other human creations? Regardless of all that since I'm sure you will provide the appropriate versus, can you fathom how this MOSES FILTER might just have motive to, um, embellish the tale in his favor, so to speak? In comparison, can you understand how MOSES may not be an accurate mouthpiece of god much like, I daresay, you might think of Jo Smith and his tale of moroni?

I know this is a long read but here is something to masticate.


The Original Sin 1/3
In the garden of Eden, there were many trees, including the tree of Life and the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Fall was not caused by eating natural fruit which was permitted. And nothing is recorded in Genesis 3 about eating an apple, we read only about partaking of fruit from the tree of Knowledge. Therefore, it is important to know who and what the tree of Knowledge was. In Genesis 3:7, we read, "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked: and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." Something terrible had happened after which the man and his wife recognized their nakedness and were ashamed such that they sought to hide it from one another and from the Lord. Notice, they did not bandage their eyes nor cover their mouths, but veiled their reproductive organs.

Genesis 3 portrays the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Every man and woman understands temptation of the senses, so Eve's admission, "the serpent beguiled me, and I did eat" should be understood by every adult person. When a girl or a boy is entrapped and beguiled, we know they didn't eat an ice-cream or a piece of fruit.

The apostle Paul certainly knew what happened in the garden of Eden. Otherwise he could not have admonished the Corinthian church, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his craftiness, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (II Corinthians 11:3). In view of the fall, the apostle writes further, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression" (I Timothy 2:14).

Directly after it happened, the Lord God told Eve, "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children. . ." (Genesis 3:16). This statement tells us what really happened. Eve was not to eat meals in sorrow and pain, as it might be supposed if the transgression had been oral; and no woman conceived through eating fruit. God knew what took place, and where punishment should be pronounced. Therefore as a memorial of the original sin, and under normal circumstances, women give birth in pain and sorrow. They don't suffer toothache at mealtimes. Proverbs 30:18-20, "Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eats, and wipes her mouth, and says, I have done no wickedness."

Just as birth-pains are to remind women of the original sin, so circumcision in the flesh was a token of separation to men under the Old Testament. When God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed, He required circumcision, "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you: every male child among you shall be circumcised" (Genesis 17:10-14). Every soul who refused circumcision was cut off from His people because he did not have the token of the Covenant. And the soul which refuses the Message of God's Prophet today is cut off from among the people because without the Message he can not have the Token, the new birth by the Fullness of the Word and cannot be restored (Matthew 17:11; Acts 3:21-23; I Corinthians 13:10).

The Lord God pronounced judgment upon the serpent for his wickedness and said, "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle and every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life" (Genesis 3:14). Up to that time, the serpent walked upright, else would the statement -- "upon your belly shall you go" would make no sense (Ezekiel 28:13-14).

Most important is the following verse, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." According to the testimony the Lord God gives here, there would be two different seeds. He spoke of the seed of the serpent, and also of its adversary, the seed which would come through the woman. In Scripture, seed speaks of offspring, and there were in Eve's womb two different seeds.

Genesis three records the conversation between the serpent and Eve. It began with the well-known question, "Yea, has God said?" The devil always uses the same approach: planting doubts about God's Word. Thus he misconstrued It, and entangled Eve. "You shall not surely die. . . Your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Eve fell for Satan's lie, being uplifted at the possibility of teaching her husband the secret knowledge of sex -- how they might fulfill His Command to "multiply and fill the earth". But what benefit was the knowledge of good and evil when separated from God? Since that time the eyes of each one of us have been opened to know good and evil and we are thereby accountable to God (Romans 5:12-14).

The human attributes are found in the genes which actually lie in the chromosomes inherited through begetting in the sex act. In this way, Satan was able to inject his nature vicariously through the serpent into the human race. Satan through transgression pulled the first couple into death, and their dominion on this earth was surrendered to death. Therefore the Redeemer had to come into human flesh "That through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver them who, through fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:14-15). Conquering Satan and death, and rising the third day, He victoriously announced, "I have the keys of death and hell" (Revelation 1:18).

God's commandment was, "Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). He instituted marriage and joined the first pair together. The tragedy lies in the breaking of this first marriage, when Eve listened to one she knew to be inspired by Satan, usurping authority over her husband. Every species was to bring forth after his own kind, but in Eve's womb was a creature, cross-bred from Satan through the serpent, and not in the original creation. Whatever does not derive from His thoughts can never submit to the will of God. Eve then gave herself to Adam.

Adam knew Eve was no more a virgin. Though she should have been burnt as says the law (which is forever written in heaven), he loved her and quickly took her to himself. Adam was not deceived. Eve had crossed the Word from eternity into time and was dying but he knew that as a son of God he could no more be lost than God could be lost. He also knew Eve was part of him and if he joined her in death, somehow God must redeem him; thus his death would 'save' Eve. A perfect type of Christ.

Thus, the fall took place: Eve gave herself to the serpent, then had her first relation with Adam. From both unions, which happened in quick succession, children were born: Cain and Abel.

In this day, 'twins' are born of different fathers. The best-known cases happened in Sweden and France. In Stockholm, when Mrs. Bjoerlen gave birth on the same day to a black and a blond, blue-eyed baby, her husband refused to take financial responsibility for the child which clearly was not his. In the trial Mrs. Bjoerlen admitted to having a black lover. On the same day she had known both men. In France, Mrs. Duval also gave birth to a white and a black child, and 26 year old Marseilles prostitute, Yvette Landru, gave birth to one white, one Negro, and one Chinese. Medical records are replete with cases of superfetation in humans, where a woman with multiple ovum is fertilized by sperm of separate insemination. The offspring are not truly twins but step-brothers or step-sisters. True twins result from simultaneous fertilization of one ovum by two sperm.

Whoever reads Genesis 3:15 carefully, will see the Lord God had spoken of the two seeds, or offspring right after the fall. So from the very beginning, there were these two lineages: the ungodly line of Cain and the godly line found in Seth.

Not once is Cain mentioned in the genealogies of Adam in the Old or the New Testament. Not one time is Adam called the father of Cain. This is why Adam pronounced his wife "the mother of all living": never is it suggested that Adam is the father of all living (Genesis 3:20). If Cain actually would have been the first-born son of Adam, he would have had the nature of Adam who was the son of God and a special place in God's record.

As Eve bore her firstborn, she exclaimed, "I have gotten a man from the Lord" (Genesis 4:1 ). This must be understood correctly. Eve was NOT declaring Adam was the father of Cain: under Satan's delusion, she actually thought Cain was Christ, "the beginning of the creation of God." No other act with Adam is recorded between the births of Cain and Abel. We are simply told, ". . . And she again bore his brother, Abel. And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth . . ." Since THREE sons were born from TWO acts by Adam, you know POSITIVELY that ONE of those three WAS NOT the son of Adam.

The apostle John also knew what happened in the garden of Eden. He writes, ". . . not as Cain, who was of that wicked one" (1 John 3:12). In this statement Adam could never have been meant. Adam was not the evil one, neither the wicked one, whose son Cain was, according to the written Word of God. The same apostle writes of the believers, ". . . because you have overcome the wicked one" (I John 2:13,14). Again Satan is meant in this place as in many other places in the Scripture with this description. In Revelation 20:2, he is called "the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan." In many places Scripture calls the opponent of God "the wicked one." God is altogether good; Satan is just the opposite. In the Lord's prayer we petition, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one" (Matthew 6:13). We now know "the evil one" is the vicarious father of Cain, and origin of all ungodly things.

Cain the first killer and murderer, was full of envy and jealousy; and Satan was a murderer from the beginning -- not in heaven, but on earth (John 8:44). Now it behooves us to consider what prompted such envy and jealousy as would cause Cain to murder Abel. It arose from their worship of God. Cain was rejected with his revelation, because he was carnal. Perhaps he thought it was an apple that caused the fall, and knowing God requires life for life, picked the choicest of his crop, knowing the 'life' would go out of it. But by revelation from God, the Bible says, Abel knew animal had caused the fall, and animal life must be offered.

When the elder saw his 'works' rejected and Abel's sacrifice, for which he had not labored, accepted of God, it seemed so unreasonable. And when God told him he would be accepted if he offered by faith the sacrifice of His vindicated prophet, Cain felt humiliated. Containing his pride, he asked Abel to expound the faith. Fearing for his life, Abel was reluctant to tell Cain. But when he prevailed, Abel expounded the 'original sin.' Cain recognized he never had the birthright, was not Adam's son, and nowhere in the genealogy of God. But if he destroyed Abel, he reasoned the possibility of fabricating primogeniture.

Hence, when God exposed his evil, and Cain could see there was no way he could claim Adam's birthright, (which is ultimately restoration to eternal Life in a restored world), he exclaimed, ". . . from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that finds me shall slay me" (because intermarriage with his line always procreates the unredeemable serpent seed and further pollutes the human race). So to prevent man from taking vengeance on Cain and his kindred, God placed a mark upon him. That mark is worldly wisdom: reasoning against the faith. According to anthropologists and Brother Branham, the serpent seed were responsible for all inventions and the discovery of all technological principles.

It is absolutely impossible for Cain to have come forth from Adam who was created in the image of the holy God from Whom can no evil come. Satan misused the serpent to enter into the human race in this cunning way, and throw it into destruction and death. Thus it was necessary for God to come in human flesh without human male instrumentality to redeem us back from the power of Satan. As soon as all the redeemed receive their full inheritance, they will be placed back into their original ordained position under God to rule over all the earth.

Enoch was the seventh from Adam: Cain was not counted (Jude 14). Abel was killed with no offspring, therefore the record of the genealogy goes through Seth. In this respect, the Word of God is also perfect and enlightening -- Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch -- Cain is not mentioned (Genesis 5:6-18).

The seed of the serpent was just as real as the seed of the woman. If the serpent did not have a seed, then Christ too was a myth. The seed of the serpent was Cain, the promised seed of the woman was Christ. Paul referred to the promised seed, ". . .and to your seed, which is Christ" (Galatians 3:16-19). He is the seed for whom the promise was given. In the Old Testament, we read, "When You shall make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed" (Isaiah 53:10). God's law states that every seed must reproduce after its own kind (Genesis 1:11). So we should recognize not only did the serpent seed produce a physical race of people not on the Book of Life, but it also produces spiritual death in Adam's race, causing names to be removed from the Book of Life.

God hates hybreeding -- His Word is Spirit, and It is Life, but when mixed with human reasoning, It is no longer His Word and becomes death (John 6:63; Revelation 22:18-19). In Luke 8:11 we read, "The seed is the Word of God". Before Eve could receive the physical seed of the serpent, she had to first receive the perverted word or suggestion of Satan into her mind -- spiritual serpent seed -- and reason against the clear instruction of God's seed Word.

In Matthew 13:36-43, the Lord speaks clearly about these two different spiritual seeds, "He that sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one." Our lives manifest our faith or understanding. A life lived by the Word is God expressed -- Christ in you, the hope of glory. A life lived by church creeds is substitution, reasoning against the faith, the mark of Cain and of the beast. And it is death. Those influenced by the wicked one, hardened their hearts, to whom Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there no truth in him." Protesting they were not of Cain's serpent seed line they said, "We be not born of fornication; we have one father, even God." Now Jesus knew these were physically in Adam's righteous line, but they were deceived on the Word and abode not in the Truth, therefore He said, "SPIRITUALLY, you are serpent seed, and will be blotted out from the record of Life". And they were (John 8:37-47; Psalm 69:21-28).

We also must remember that enmity was put between the two seeds, "And I will put enmity between . . . your seed and her seed" (Genesis 3:15). With the aid of the serpent, Satan came into the human race to destroy God's order. And the enmity is still there.

Satan perverted God's holy instruction to "multiply and fill the earth", deceiving Eve, and coming into human flesh and blood to produce death instead of life. "Man that's born of woman is of few days, and full of trouble" (Job 14:1). God required a perfect substitute, so Jesus was born of a virgin, without sex, by faith in the spoken Word Seed of God, to pay sin's penalty. Hence our second birth is not by woman, but by the Man Christ Jesus without sin and without sex, by the spoken seed Word of God.

After Pentecost, Satan returned to pervert the spoken Word seed of God by mixing or hybridizing It with reasoning -- creeds and traditions. So long as the seven-sealed Book was closed, and the mystery sealed to the time of the end, Christ was in the Office of Mediator, interceding in behalf of the ignorance of God's elect concerning the faith (Daniel 12:4,9; Revelation 10:4,7). Once the last saint predestinated to the Laodicean Church Age had been baptized into the Body, Christ answered the call of the elders, fulfilling Revelation 4, 5, and 10:1-7.

Advancing from the sacrifice altar as the bleeding, bloody Lamb, and taking the Book, He became Lion, Judge, and King of Kings. He tore open the Seals, then in Revelation 10:1-6 we see the symbol of Him descending in Word Form to reveal Himself through the ministry of the 'angel' of the Laodicean Church Age, before the seventh Trumpet Angel sounds the end of the Gentile Dispensation (I Thessalonians 4:16; I Corinthians 15:52).

You see the Church Age saints cannot be made perfect without us. As the Holy Spirit was waved before God in the first ripe Sheaf of the Lord Jesus Christ, and accepted, in that God resurrected Him for the justification of the whole harvest (Romans 4:25), that same Spirit in the Fullness of the Word is to be waved again in the end-time Bride and Her acceptance will signal the resurrection of the sleeping saints and build faith for translation grace. The "church" knows nothing and will know nothing of this, for their end is a Lake of Fire (Leviticus 23:16-21; Matthew 3:12; I Thessalonians 5:1-10; Revelation 19:20; 20:10).

Speaking through His prophets, God promised He would RESTORE the faith once delivered unto the apostolic saints (Joel 2:25; Malachi 4:5-6; Matthew 17:11; Acts 3:19-21). This restoration is the Message of the seventh Church Age Messenger, the prophet of Malachi 4:5-6. It is the 'shout' of I Thessalonians 4:16 which both wise and foolish virgin of Matthew 25:6 hear and heed. It is Christ, "that which is perfect" of I Corinthians 13:10, Acts 3:21, and Revelation 10:7 -- the Fullness of the Word spoken by the mouth of all God's holy prophets since the world began. Which separates His tiny little Flock from the great whore of Rome and her Protestant harlot daughters (Genesis 49:10; Amos 3:3; Matthew 13:41; Ephesians 1:10; II Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 18:4).

The 'enmity' God placed between the seed of the righteous first and second Adam, and the unrighteous physical seed of Cain and the bastard-born children of the second Eve, Jesus calls the mother of harlots and abominations on the earth, is still there. Christ's little Flock is marching toward heaven in the rapture, and Satan's mighty world-wide church is marching to Armageddon (Revelation 16:13-16; 17:14).

Revelation 1-3 records the battle set in array on the day of Pentecost between Christ in His people, and antichrist in his people. As these two trees were together in the midst of the Garden, they have grown together within the framework of the Christian church through the Ages. Like Judas and Jesus: brothers in the Word, so close it would almost deceive the very elect IF it were possible. But we are in the harvest time where the seed which was planted is mature and can no longer hide its fruit. The church that has rejected Christ is apostate doesn't know it. It's uniting to REJECT and destroy the manifested Word Bride (Revelation 3:15-20). But after a brief and powerful demonstration of the Spirit -- NOT a public display as it was in Pentecost --- that little hunted and persecuted group will go to be with Jesus.

As Satan incarnate the beast in Eden and led the first Eve to death, when he's cast out of the heavenlys, he evicts his demons from the man of sin and incarnates him; thereafter he's called the beast. Christ's purpose will be fulfilled in His Bride: that Corn of Wheat which fell to the ground and died at Calvary will have reproduced Himself in the many-membered spoken Word seed Bride.

When Jesus was on earth, Satan showed Him all the kingdoms and their glory in this end-time and said, "All these things will I give You, if You will fall down and worship me" (Matthew 4:9). Our Redeemer knew that once He overcame, and shed His blood for the redemption of those ordained for eternal Life, the inheritance forfeited by the first Adam would be His. Already the psalmist had said, "Arise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit all nations" (Psalm 82:8; Revelation 11:15).

Of Christ's elect or Spiritual Seed, the apostle Paul writes, "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ -- if so be that we suffer with Him, we may be also glorified together" (Romans 8:17). This will be fulfilled sooner than most (so-called) Christians dare imagine. We have the privilege to live in a time when all the mysteries contained in the Holy Scriptures have been revealed, including what happened in the garden of Eden. bb930112.htm


Genesis three records the conversation between the serpent and Eve. It began with the well-known question, "Yea, has God said?" The devil always uses the same approach: planting doubts about God's Word. Thus he misconstrued It, and entangled Eve. "You shall not surely die. . . Your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Eve fell for Satan's lie, being uplifted at the possibility of teaching her husband the secret knowledge of sex -- how they might fulfill His Command to "multiply and fill the earth". But what benefit was the knowledge of good and evil when separated from God? Since that time the eyes of each one of us have been opened to know good and evil and we are thereby accountable to God (Romans 5:12-14).

The human attributes are found in the genes which actually lie in the chromosomes inherited through begetting in the sex act. In this way, Satan was able to inject his nature vicariously through the serpent into the human race. Satan through transgression pulled the first couple into death, and their dominion on this earth was surrendered to death. Therefore the Redeemer had to come into human flesh "That through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver them who, through fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:14-15). Conquering Satan and death, and rising the third day, He victoriously announced, "I have the keys of death and hell" (Revelation 1:18).

God's commandment was, "Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). He instituted marriage and joined the first pair together. The tragedy lies in the breaking of this first marriage, when Eve listened to one she knew to be inspired by Satan, usurping authority over her husband. Every species was to bring forth after his own kind, but in Eve's womb was a creature, cross-bred from Satan through the serpent, and not in the original creation. Whatever does not derive from His thoughts can never submit to the will of God. Eve then gave herself to Adam.

Adam knew Eve was no more a virgin. Though she should have been burnt as says the law (which is forever written in heaven), he loved her and quickly took her to himself. Adam was not deceived. Eve had crossed the Word from eternity into time and was dying but he knew that as a son of God he could no more be lost than God could be lost. He also knew Eve was part of him and if he joined her in death, somehow God must redeem him; thus his death would 'save' Eve. A perfect type of Christ.

Thus, the fall took place: Eve gave herself to the serpent, then had her first relation with Adam. From both unions, which happened in quick succession, children were born: Cain and Abel.

In this day, 'twins' are born of different fathers. The best-known cases happened in Sweden and France. In Stockholm, when Mrs. Bjoerlen gave birth on the same day to a black and a blond, blue-eyed baby, her husband refused to take financial responsibility for the child which clearly was not his. In the trial Mrs. Bjoerlen admitted to having a black lover. On the same day she had known both men. In France, Mrs. Duval also gave birth to a white and a black child, and 26 year old Marseilles prostitute, Yvette Landru, gave birth to one white, one Negro, and one Chinese. Medical records are replete with cases of superfetation in humans, where a woman with multiple ovum is fertilized by sperm of separate insemination. The offspring are not truly twins but step-brothers or step-sisters. True twins result from simultaneous fertilization of one ovum by two sperm.

Whoever reads Genesis 3:15 carefully, will see the Lord God had spoken of the two seeds, or offspring right after the fall. So from the very beginning, there were these two lineages: the ungodly line of Cain and the godly line found in Seth.

Not once is Cain mentioned in the genealogies of Adam in the Old or the New Testament. Not one time is Adam called the father of Cain. This is why Adam pronounced his wife "the mother of all living": never is it suggested that Adam is the father of all living (Genesis 3:20). If Cain actually would have been the first-born son of Adam, he would have had the nature of Adam who was the son of God and a special place in God's record.

As Eve bore her firstborn, she exclaimed, "I have gotten a man from the Lord" (Genesis 4:1 ). This must be understood correctly. Eve was NOT declaring Adam was the father of Cain: under Satan's delusion, she actually thought Cain was Christ, "the beginning of the creation of God." No other act with Adam is recorded between the births of Cain and Abel. We are simply told, ". . . And she again bore his brother, Abel. And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth . . ." Since THREE sons were born from TWO acts by Adam, you know POSITIVELY that ONE of those three WAS NOT the son of Adam.

The apostle John also knew what happened in the garden of Eden. He writes, ". . . not as Cain, who was of that wicked one" (1 John 3:12). In this statement Adam could never have been meant. Adam was not the evil one, neither the wicked one, whose son Cain was, according to the written Word of God. The same apostle writes of the believers, ". . . because you have overcome the wicked one" (I John 2:13,14). Again Satan is meant in this place as in many other places in the Scripture with this description. In Revelation 20:2, he is called "the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan." In many places Scripture calls the opponent of God "the wicked one." God is altogether good; Satan is just the opposite. In the Lord's prayer we petition, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one" (Matthew 6:13). We now know "the evil one" is the vicarious father of Cain, and origin of all ungodly things.

Cain the first killer and murderer, was full of envy and jealousy; and Satan was a murderer from the beginning -- not in heaven, but on earth (John 8:44). Now it behooves us to consider what prompted such envy and jealousy as would cause Cain to murder Abel. It arose from their worship of God. Cain was rejected with his revelation, because he was carnal. Perhaps he thought it was an apple that caused the fall, and knowing God requires life for life, picked the choicest of his crop, knowing the 'life' would go out of it. But by revelation from God, the Bible says, Abel knew animal had caused the fall, and animal life must be offered.

When the elder saw his 'works' rejected and Abel's sacrifice, for which he had not labored, accepted of God, it seemed so unreasonable. And when God told him he would be accepted if he offered by faith the sacrifice of His vindicated prophet, Cain felt humiliated. Containing his pride, he asked Abel to expound the faith. Fearing for his life, Abel was reluctant to tell Cain. But when he prevailed, Abel expounded the 'original sin.' Cain recognized he never had the birthright, was not Adam's son, and nowhere in the genealogy of God. But if he destroyed Abel, he reasoned the possibility of fabricating primogeniture.

Hence, when God exposed his evil, and Cain could see there was no way he could claim Adam's birthright, (which is ultimately restoration to eternal Life in a restored world), he exclaimed, ". . . from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that finds me shall slay me" (because intermarriage with his line always procreates the unredeemable serpent seed and further pollutes the human race). So to prevent man from taking vengeance on Cain and his kindred, God placed a mark upon him. That mark is worldly wisdom: reasoning against the faith. According to anthropologists and Brother Branham, the serpent seed were responsible for all inventions and the discovery of all technological principles.

It is absolutely impossible for Cain to have come forth from Adam who was created in the image of the holy God from Whom can no evil come. Satan misused the serpent to enter into the human race in this cunning way, and throw it into destruction and death. Thus it was necessary for God to come in human flesh without human male instrumentality to redeem us back from the power of Satan. As soon as all the redeemed receive their full inheritance, they will be placed back into their original ordained position under God to rule over all the earth.

Enoch was the seventh from Adam: Cain was not counted (Jude 14). Abel was killed with no offspring, therefore the record of the genealogy goes through Seth. In this respect, the Word of God is also perfect and enlightening -- Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch -- Cain is not mentioned (Genesis 5:6-18).

The seed of the serpent was just as real as the seed of the woman. If the serpent did not have a seed, then Christ too was a myth. The seed of the serpent was Cain, the promised seed of the woman was Christ. Paul referred to the promised seed, ". . .and to your seed, which is Christ" (Galatians 3:16-19). He is the seed for whom the promise was given. In the Old Testament, we read, "When You shall make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed" (Isaiah 53:10). God's law states that every seed must reproduce after its own kind (Genesis 1:11). So we should recognize not only did the serpent seed produce a physical race of people not on the Book of Life, but it also produces spiritual death in Adam's race, causing names to be removed from the Book of Life.

God hates hybreeding -- His Word is Spirit, and It is Life, but when mixed with human reasoning, It is no longer His Word and becomes death (John 6:63; Revelation 22:18-19). In Luke 8:11 we read, "The seed is the Word of God". Before Eve could receive the physical seed of the serpent, she had to first receive the perverted word or suggestion of Satan into her mind -- spiritual serpent seed -- and reason against the clear instruction of God's seed Word.

In Matthew 13:36-43, the Lord speaks clearly about these two different spiritual seeds, "He that sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom, but the tares are the children of the wicked one." Our lives manifest our faith or understanding. A life lived by the Word is God expressed -- Christ in you, the hope of glory. A life lived by church creeds is substitution, reasoning against the faith, the mark of Cain and of the beast. And it is death. Those influenced by the wicked one, hardened their hearts, to whom Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there no truth in him." Protesting they were not of Cain's serpent seed line they said, "We be not born of fornication; we have one father, even God." Now Jesus knew these were physically in Adam's righteous line, but they were deceived on the Word and abode not in the Truth, therefore He said, "SPIRITUALLY, you are serpent seed, and will be blotted out from the record of Life". And they were (John 8:37-47; Psalm 69:21-28).

We also must remember that enmity was put between the two seeds, "And I will put enmity between . . . your seed and her seed" (Genesis 3:15). With the aid of the serpent, Satan came into the human race to destroy God's order. And the enmity is still there.

Satan perverted God's holy instruction to "multiply and fill the earth", deceiving Eve, and coming into human flesh and blood to produce death instead of life. "Man that's born of woman is of few days, and full of trouble" (Job 14:1). God required a perfect substitute, so Jesus was born of a virgin, without sex, by faith in the spoken Word Seed of God, to pay sin's penalty. Hence our second birth is not by woman, but by the Man Christ Jesus without sin and without sex, by the spoken seed Word of God.

After Pentecost, Satan returned to pervert the spoken Word seed of God by mixing or hybridizing It with reasoning -- creeds and traditions. So long as the seven-sealed Book was closed, and the mystery sealed to the time of the end, Christ was in the Office of Mediator, interceding in behalf of the ignorance of God's elect concerning the faith (Daniel 12:4,9; Revelation 10:4,7). Once the last saint predestinated to the Laodicean Church Age had been baptized into the Body, Christ answered the call of the elders, fulfilling Revelation 4, 5, and 10:1-7.

Advancing from the sacrifice altar as the bleeding, bloody Lamb, and taking the Book, He became Lion, Judge, and King of Kings. He tore open the Seals, then in Revelation 10:1-6 we see the symbol of Him descending in Word Form to reveal Himself through the ministry of the 'angel' of the Laodicean Church Age, before the seventh Trumpet Angel sounds the end of the Gentile Dispensation (I Thessalonians 4:16; I Corinthians 15:52).

You see the Church Age saints cannot be made perfect without us. As the Holy Spirit was waved before God in the first ripe Sheaf of the Lord Jesus Christ, and accepted, in that God resurrected Him for the justification of the whole harvest (Romans 4:25), that same Spirit in the Fullness of the Word is to be waved again in the end-time Bride and Her acceptance will signal the resurrection of the sleeping saints and build faith for translation grace. The "church" knows nothing and will know nothing of this, for their end is a Lake of Fire (Leviticus 23:16-21; Matthew 3:12; I Thessalonians 5:1-10; Revelation 19:20; 20:10).

Speaking through His prophets, God promised He would RESTORE the faith once delivered unto the apostolic saints (Joel 2:25; Malachi 4:5-6; Matthew 17:11; Acts 3:19-21). This restoration is the Message of the seventh Church Age Messenger, the prophet of Malachi 4:5-6. It is the 'shout' of I Thessalonians 4:16 which both wise and foolish virgin of Matthew 25:6 hear and heed. It is Christ, "that which is perfect" of I Corinthians 13:10, Acts 3:21, and Revelation 10:7 -- the Fullness of the Word spoken by the mouth of all God's holy prophets since the world began. Which separates His tiny little Flock from the great whore of Rome and her Protestant harlot daughters (Genesis 49:10; Amos 3:3; Matthew 13:41; Ephesians 1:10; II Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 18:4).

The 'enmity' God placed between the seed of the righteous first and second Adam, and the unrighteous physical seed of Cain and the bastard-born children of the second Eve, Jesus calls the mother of harlots and abominations on the earth, is still there. Christ's little Flock is marching toward heaven in the rapture, and Satan's mighty world-wide church is marching to Armageddon (Revelation 16:13-16; 17:14).

Revelation 1-3 records the battle set in array on the day of Pentecost between Christ in His people, and antichrist in his people. As these two trees were together in the midst of the Garden, they have grown together within the framework of the Christian church through the Ages. Like Judas and Jesus: brothers in the Word, so close it would almost deceive the very elect IF it were possible. But we are in the harvest time where the seed which was planted is mature and can no longer hide its fruit. The church that has rejected Christ is apostate doesn't know it. It's uniting to REJECT and destroy the manifested Word Bride (Revelation 3:15-20). But after a brief and powerful demonstration of the Spirit -- NOT a public display as it was in Pentecost --- that little hunted and persecuted group will go to be with Jesus.

As Satan incarnate the beast in Eden and led the first Eve to death, when he's cast out of the heavenlys, he evicts his demons from the man of sin and incarnates him; thereafter he's called the beast. Christ's purpose will be fulfilled in His Bride: that Corn of Wheat which fell to the ground and died at Calvary will have reproduced Himself in the many-membered spoken Word seed Bride.

When Jesus was on earth, Satan showed Him all the kingdoms and their glory in this end-time and said, "All these things will I give You, if You will fall down and worship me" (Matthew 4:9). Our Redeemer knew that once He overcame, and shed His blood for the redemption of those ordained for eternal Life, the inheritance forfeited by the first Adam would be His. Already the psalmist had said, "Arise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit all nations" (Psalm 82:8; Revelation 11:15).

Of Christ's elect or Spiritual Seed, the apostle Paul writes, "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ -- if so be that we suffer with Him, we may be also glorified together" (Romans 8:17). This will be fulfilled sooner than most (so-called) Christians dare imagine. We have the privilege to live in a time when all the mysteries contained in the Holy Scriptures have been revealed, including what happened in the garden of Eden. bb930112.htm

 

[Shogun]

Shogun...You are going to have to give me some time with all that please. I will get back to you on all this though as soon as I figure out how to capture seperate quotes from a quote on this board and I have to do some research. I would like to take this space and appologize to anyone I have said hurtful things to on this board. There is a reason for it, not an excuse, a reason...First of all it is just my nature. I would have made a great fireman. I see fire and I run into it not from it. Second, I have been recently hurt at work and it has left me permanently crippled. I won't ever walk right again unless God does an intervention. The Doctors have done all they can. I am not looking for sympathy...just a little space when it comes to my spelling.

I appreciate this post. I am also capable of short fuse reflexive retorts which hinder worthwhile discussion and am glad that this conversation has been above all that. I hope the best for your recovery, dude.

 

[Shogun]

One of the tenets of the CHristian faith is witnessing; i.e., we are told to share our faith with others.

It's unfortunate that there are those who see this as us trying to impose our religion on others. Imposing our religion on others would be forcing others to abide by it, and of course, that's completely un-Christian, as Christianity is all about choosing to believe.

The trend now is that anybody who makes a statement of Christian faith in mixed company is trying, just by stating their beliefs, to force that belief on others. Of course this only pertains to CHRISTIANS who state their beliefs. When Muslims or Atheists proclaim their beliefs, why they're just asserting their right to do so, and anybody who has a problem with that is a bigot, a hate monger, or something else equally awful.

Stating your belief in Jesus Christ as savior, your faith in God's plan, and your belief that only the saved will access heaven is not attempting to impose your belief on others. It's simply a statement of your own belief.

Believe it or not, the rest of us are not your fish to catch. No amount of muslim bashing will erase circumstances like this:

Pagan group gets the boot in Hannibal
http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Feb/20050203News007.asp

Your prothletising achilles tendon is severed by the tenacity of your own collective intolerance. I'll treat you like you treat jahovas witness and mormons who do the exact same thing for the exact same reasons with the exact same results when trying to be fishers of men in your particular dogma pond. By all means, believe what you want... but lets stop pretending that big evil secular america is picking on christians who only want to tell people, and nothing more, about their messiah.

 

[midcan5]

"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." Russell

 

[Shogun]

Hey Shogun...Can we reverse rolls. I am much better at this from your perspective. Seeing your side is like looking in a mirror for me frome about 2 years ago. For now you have completly stopped me in my tracks. It feels like my head just exploded. I know that it is not your belief but can we agree that the book says God made man in Gen 1? then rested on the seventh. I know, and all work was done. If that were the case though there would be no more book. That would be the end of story. The bible goes on to show God working and fine tuning if you will throughout the Bible. Why would God mention he made man in 1 and leave out that Adam was that man. Where would Cain's wife come from? Why would there be a place called Nod that had people in it for him to take a wife? Would you believe that Adam and Eve had so many children that they populated a small town and that Cain's wife was actually his sister? It is hard to argue this, especially with an atheist. Especially on line on a message board.

first bold
I agree that, according to the first chapters of Genesis, god made man on the fifth day and rested. We are discussing if ch 2 indicates a prior creation event. While I have no dog in this race it seems to me that ch 2 is something of a clarification of ch 1 specifically telling the tale of human creation that was glossed over in ch 1. I'll freely admit, I could be totally wrong.


second bold
Sure, the rest of the bible tells of how god has interacted with man... but, regarding CREATION he rested and was done. God didn't create anything other land, animals, humans etc after Genesis. The rest of the OT is jewish mythology and history. The NT is the testement of jebus as a messiah, not as a creating god. I would reply that, in regards to the creation mythology, my point stands.

third bold
I'm not following. Why would he mention creating man and fail to mention adam was man? Does not compute. Why would he even mention adam if there was a prior creation?

fourth bold
That's a good mystery. My answer is this: Because the jewish creation mythology is as incorrect as every other origin myth that has more to do with the culture in which they were created than any truth regarding a god. It could very well simply be an allagory for the point in humanity when we stopped being mere animals and became an evolved beast of reason. Thus, the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the unferral attitude towards nudity. Suffice it to say, atheists wonder why there is any confusion at all about origin if an alpha and omega god could swoop in and speak to a modern day moses. This is one of the reason why dogma doesn't float with me. Trust me, if god were anything like power-giving gods in fantasy books there would be no atheists and no questions regarding the origin of man.


fifth bold
Given the pattern of religious tradition and the tendency to breed like rabbits? It doesn't really seem outlandish that adam and eve humped like mynx post-eden. Since there is a total void of GODly input on sexual mores between creation and moses it doesn't really shock me that there is no mention of gods opinion on incest. Again, who says god was incapable of providing varient genes to eve in the first place? Since neither were the product of sexual reproduction why do they have to be related in the first place? God didn't say, "Adam, go fuck your sister". God created a MATE for adam, not family.

Let me toss this idea your way:

What if ch1 is the point where god created humans and ch 2 is his clarification of creating the FIRST humans, adam and eve, on the fifth day... BUT, there is no mention in either chapter that A&E were the ONLY humans he created on the fifth day; just the first. Perhaps Nod was another mormon-like testement of gods hand in creation that was also produced on the fifth day. Why, then, would the humans from Nod, whose history we have no mention outside of relating to A&E, fall victim to the sins of Eve? Did god care for one creation more than another? Perhaps, certainly, according to legend, a certain angel and 1/3 of his buddies felt that way. Does this give us insight to the nature of GOD or to the nature of humans creating a god myth infused with ethnocentric themes that are similarly evidence throughout the OT?

 

[Shogun]

If this is the case then why would he SPECIFICALLY make it clear that his work was done in 2:1-4?

God never stops working throughout the bible. It was refering to the main project being completed.

But, again, remove the Moses filter and show me where GOD conveyed as much without a human mouth familiar with human culture to say as much. Where is the scripture to suggest that Adam and Eve were not the first humans. for that matter, why even say anything about adam and eve if they were not? How would EARLIER humans than adam and eve have circumvented the retribution for Eves sin if they came BEFORE Eden and the temptation? Were those earlier humans not ALREADY having sex by the time Adam and Eve were created? If so, what's the point of the story then?

I do not have anything at this point for conveying it without a human mouth. Nor a human hand...any of it. God did not write the Bible with a bic pen and a giant hand. It was conveyed to humans by God who then wrote it down. Thus allowing for some human or Satanic influence and some of the translation being lost.

Where in the scripture to suggest that Adam and Eve were not the first humans. for that matter, why even say anything about adam and eve if they were not?

No one is saying they were not. I am saying that they came after a period of time that "Man" was already created. No doubt Adam and Eve were Gods "special two". The reason they were special is they were given souls as aposed to the humans that were already created without """GODS BLESSING""" of a soul.

How would EARLIER humans than adam and eve have circumvented the retribution for Eves sin if they came BEFORE Eden and the temptation?

They wouldn't have to. They were a seperate work in progress. The entire Bible is a work in progress.

Were those earlier humans not ALREADY having sex by the time Adam and Eve were created? If so, what's the point of the story then?

I don't know, I wasn't there. I would imagine so. Otherwise how would they multiply. This is quite simple. God made a work in progress...MAN...Then made a man with his breath to be his chosen special one Adam. The point of the story is God did not want soulless puppets. He wanted them to follow the rules because they loved him and respected him, thats why he gave them free will.

1
Indeed, that main project being creation. i don't dispute that the rest of the bible is rife with the hand of god but, as previously mentioned, god never CREATED anything after the seventh day.

2.
Which is one of the many reasons I am an atheist. Indeed, if the bible was penned by god there would be something worth lookinginto rather than the opinions of random people who think they have been touched by the divine just like the greeks, the romans, the egyptians, and every other charlatans on the roster. You bring up an interesting point too: If human nature is influenced by a righteous god AND evil sin then how is a human interpretation of gods will (the bible) NOT infusing, in some way, with both while being sold as the unblemished path to god? god would have been more convincing if he didn't need a human mouthpiece. Indeed, from this angle it's hard to give credence to ethnocentric jews talking about their chosen status like moses or pharoes who believe themselves to be gods in the flesh based on social status. Lot's of people CLAIM to speak for a god but, so far, the evidence is not at all impressive.

3.
Again, please show me scripture that suggests that A&E were the first humans to have been given a soul. I know that Angels are mentioned to not have a soul, thus the morningstar rebellion, but I know of no other scripture that conveys as much outside of the mention of the nephelim.... Which were the product of angels fucking humans and not a creation of god.


4.
I'm not sure many christians would admit that the bible is a work in progress if their primary message is that the bible is the only path to salvation. Also, would still like to see scripture that suggests anything about a seperate, earlier creation of humans outside of infering as much in order to circumvent the taboo of incest. I'll give you the mention of Nod but this, to me, seems to unravel the entire myth rather than reinforce it.


5.
I'm not sure if god made man to be a work in progress. If so, why would he get all retributive about the mistake of eve's sin? How is his path righteous if it's still under construction? How could SEX be the fruit of the tree on knowledge when god told the animals AND A&E to be fruitful and multiply? Adam and Eve didn't have free will BEFORE eating of the fruit. they only achieved free will as a CONSEQUENCE of sinning. I still am not sure where you are reading that A&E were the first humans to be given a soul. Please show me where this is at in the bible.

 

[Lookout]

1
Indeed, that main project being creation. i don't dispute that the rest of the bible is rife with the hand of god but, as previously mentioned, god never CREATED anything after the seventh day.

2.
Which is one of the many reasons I am an atheist. Indeed, if the bible was penned by god there would be something worth lookinginto rather than the opinions of random people who think they have been touched by the divine just like the greeks, the romans, the egyptians, and every other charlatans on the roster. You bring up an interesting point too: If human nature is influenced by a righteous god AND evil sin then how is a human interpretation of gods will (the bible) NOT infusing, in some way, with both while being sold as the unblemished path to god? god would have been more convincing if he didn't need a human mouthpiece. Indeed, from this angle it's hard to give credence to ethnocentric jews talking about their chosen status like moses or pharoes who believe themselves to be gods in the flesh based on social status. Lot's of people CLAIM to speak for a god but, so far, the evidence is not at all impressive.

3.
Again, please show me scripture that suggests that A&E were the first humans to have been given a soul. I know that Angels are mentioned to not have a soul, thus the morningstar rebellion, but I know of no other scripture that conveys as much outside of the mention of the nephelim.... Which were the product of angels fucking humans and not a creation of god.


4.
I'm not sure many christians would admit that the bible is a work in progress if their primary message is that the bible is the only path to salvation. Also, would still like to see scripture that suggests anything about a seperate, earlier creation of humans outside of infering as much in order to circumvent the taboo of incest. I'll give you the mention of Nod but this, to me, seems to unravel the entire myth rather than reinforce it.


5.
I'm not sure if god made man to be a work in progress. If so, why would he get all retributive about the mistake of eve's sin? How is his path righteous if it's still under construction? How could SEX be the fruit of the tree on knowledge when god told the animals AND A&E to be fruitful and multiply? Adam and Eve didn't have free will BEFORE eating of the fruit. they only achieved free will as a CONSEQUENCE of sinning. I still am not sure where you are reading that A&E were the first humans to be given a soul. Please show me where this is at in the bible.

5. Gen ch 2 v 7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That "MAN" is Adam. God had already made man prior in ch 1. This is not a recap, this is the special man Adam who was put in the Garden to keep it.

As for the rest...How about a truce? I'm exhausted! Want to just agree to disagree? Its been most interesting and I have enjoyed the debate but I am never going to change your mind so any further introspection will probably be unfruitful.

 

[Shogun]

5. Gen ch 2 v 7: And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That "MAN" is Adam. God had already made man prior in ch 1. This is not a recap, this is the special man Adam who was put in the Garden to keep it.

As for the rest...How about a truce? I'm exhausted! Want to just agree to disagree? Its been most interesting and I have enjoyed the debate but I am never going to change your mind so any further introspection will probably be unfruitful.

But that interpretation lies at the very heart of weather or not Ch1 and ch2 were talking about seperate human creations. did you mean god had already made man prior to chapter 2? Nothing was created prior to ch 1.


Oh hey, I'm not trying to pin you down here, dude. What you believe about creation is your own perogative. I'm not trying to change your mind and, you are right, it's going to take a lot to change my mind. I was just enjoying a little apologetic debate. I used to do this DAILY at my first college which was a private souther baptist organization. Whats funny, is that I was the long haired heavy metal dude that could go the distance debating with bible majors. I am probably the only dude to have rocked out to some cannibal corpse on that campus. hehehehe, needless to say, I transfered.


Anyway, it's been fun. We;ll probably ram heads in the next thread that pops up about dogma.

 

[Lookout]

But that interpretation lies at the very heart of weather or not Ch1 and ch2 were talking about seperate human creations. did you mean god had already made man prior to chapter 2? Nothing was created prior to ch 1.


Oh hey, I'm not trying to pin you down here, dude. What you believe about creation is your own perogative. I'm not trying to change your mind and, you are right, it's going to take a lot to change my mind. I was just enjoying a little apologetic debate. I used to do this DAILY at my first college which was a private souther baptist organization. Whats funny, is that I was the long haired heavy metal dude that could go the distance debating with bible majors. I am probably the only dude to have rocked out to some cannibal corpse on that campus. hehehehe, needless to say, I transfered.


Anyway, it's been fun. We;ll probably ram heads in the next thread that pops up about dogma.

That works! and...you have one up on me, the only college I went to was the College of hard knocks that was all the way up on top of damn fools hill. LOL

 

[Shogun]

Cain was not Adams child. It is easier to get it if you want to get it. To come at it from the point of view that you don't want to get it, you don't want to believe...You won't.

The bible says that Cain and Abel were the sons of Adam and Eve. Please show me different.

Gen 4
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, 4 and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


I dont mean to stir this up again but.. Im just curious what scriputre suggests that cain is the spawn of satan.

 

[Shogun]

Just curious, but how do you combat the depression that I would think would have to come as you age and mortality stares at you longer and longer? It's only human to not like the idea that there will come a point where you will not exist. And, is it just me or would it make sense that of all people the non-believers would hold life to be even more precious since they believe that this is all there is?

I don't find it depressing at all to face the same mortality that everyone else comes to know. There is no proof of any afterlife. There is no evidence for a soul. These are man made constructs used much in the same way greeks used their myths to explain that which we don't understand. Where do you get that atheists don't hold life as precious? Use as many historic examples as you need to because i've got a few of my own.


I'm betting that life is like the flame of a candle: It burns while we are alive and is nothing when dead. There is no evidence that a soul is anything more than jargon used to describe out human observations and behaviour. There is no measurable energy to it. There is no notable change in the physical body after death which might suggest that a soul is tangible outside of our imaginations. Belief doesn't prove anything; Evidence does. We are reactive creatures based on physical stimuli and we can observe our personalities responding to such. What does the soul respond to?

 

[Dr Grump]

Only one flaw with that theory. At the pearly gates there will be no debating. If you are proved wrong, you get a one way non stop ticket. This is the only debating platform you will have. The Pearly Gates is not a trial. It is judgement and sentencing. This lifetime you have is the trial and it does not sound like you have a very good attorney to me

You would not be so arrogant as to speak for god now would you? Before you say "it is written in the book" I'll let you know that I have never trusted the interpretations of religous text by man. If the likes of Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson - who both have a complete belief in God and Jesus Christ being the son of god - are capable of passing through the Pearly Gates, maybe heaven isnt a place I want to be.

But hey, I see it this way. If you don't believe there is a God then why not Blaspheme as hard and heavy as you possibly can? If you do not have the Juevos to cast down the bible and condem it to the trash heap and totally Go after the God depicted in it as a Liar, a murderer, A child killer, a child abuser, and many other things, then you might have that little something inside you that says..

Even though I'm a non believer, I have never quite thought of a God in those terms. The fact you have, explains a lot. My main issues with a god are 1) where did he or she come from; 2) why does he or she covet to be worshipped so - huge ego, no?? PLsu a couple of dozen other things too

 

[Shogun]

hehehe...

the entire OT is a bastion of shit that is rife with horrible actions that we'd be busy condemning if it were any other ethnicity's history. I mean, where else can we cry about abortion while supporting a god who killed an entire generation of egyptian first born for the sake of the chosen? where else will you find a heroic figure getting away with sicing she bears on KIDS who made fun of his bald head? Conquering lands? Hey, in Canaan it's ALL good.

 

[Lookout]

The bible says that Cain and Abel were the sons of Adam and Eve. Please show me different.

Gen 4
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, 4 and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


I dont mean to stir this up again but.. Im just curious what scriputre suggests that cain is the spawn of satan.

It is so hard to not get sucked back into this. Did you read the really long post tittled "Original sin 1/3" on this page? post # 166 That explains it all. If it doesn't then I don't believe there is anything else to prove it. If someone doesn't want to believe something no amount of bantering or sledgehammering will get them to believe it. I could point at a car and tell you it is a car and if you choose to believe it is a pencil, then it will always be a pencil to you.

 

[Shogun]

I thumbed through it... But it seems like a lot breading and not a lot of beef, you know? I'm looking for specific SCRIPTURE ot some dude's interpretation of the bible. Hell, there are enough of those already and they remind me of opinions and asshole more than profound insight. I'm asking you because this is YOUR belief not that essay. Can YOU show me biblical scripture that supports your view of the christian dogma? I'm not trying to be stubborn, I'm looking for the evidence.



This reminds me.. Shortly after Waco I found the Branch Davidian webpage and had them send me a copy of their teachings. They sent a spiral bound copy of an essay that both reminds me of the above and ron hubbard-type fiction. They also had a way of twisting the bible around their perspective... regardless of what the bible actually says. Now, again, I have no reason to pull you any which way here; comparative religions is something of a hobby and nothing else. I'm just looking to see if the evidence for your particular choice of dogma is any more solid than theirs and others. 'Cause, to be honest, i'm not sure that yours is a common belief for the reason for confusion in Genesis. This is why I asked what denomination you are part of.