Making animal rights and biocentrism a major political topic

[Katzndogz]

The nobility of the environmentalist. How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.

 

[syrenn]

My goal is not to force a vegan lifestyle on people or force PETA's philosophy onto people. Would I love it if people could see the cruelty that we inflict on animals and change their way of living, of course, but I am realistic enough to know that not everybody, people like you for example, are capable of a vegan lifestyle or seeing animals as more than just test dummies for products, food for barbecues, and disposable property for entertainment.

With regards to your pet comment I have a dog that lives in my apartment with me that I rescued from abandonment, so from that alone I am not saying that you can't have pets, but it should be for the right reasons. Zoos are a double edged sword as well. They do help breed endangered species which is great but at the same time they keep animals behind cages for human entertainment. I am not saying shut them down, but their practices should be adjusted in my opinion.

I know you want to try and cast me as some sort of eco-terrorist but you are basing that on just a very few comments on mine regarding animals and the environment. You can be for something with a lot of passion and motivation without being a "terrorist". I have never been arrested at any the various environmental protests and rallies that I have attended since high school. The only thing that comes close is that i've been what the police call "detained" before but released a short time later, so I don't go around causing harmful trouble or doing illegal things. I think that sometimes a person needs to challenge barriers and confront with a loud voice and action towards established ways of thinking but you will not see me physically harm anybody.

first off.... you have a goal. That is agenda.

the agenda... your goal...as you clearly stated....is to force people to view and or slaughter animals.... to make them see where there meat comes from. To change them by guilt or disgust.


so ive asked you before...lets try again..

do you or anyone you know use over the counter or prescription drugs?
How about makeup, hair products or deodorants?

Physically forcing someone to watch or view is different from making it difficult for them not to see something. I am not saying we should take a person against their will and force them into a chair and show the footage of cruelty but people should know what happens behind the scenes. Every day people get bombarded with advertisements and marketing strategies. I am wanting that same thing but for a better purpose.

As for your question of course I know people that use those products. Any product that is tested on animals or that come from the use of animals is wrong in my opinion. I don't deny using products at one point in my life that were like that but now I try my best to use products that are not.

you still have agenda... peta agenda. You have a goal. You state your goal.

As to your friends... i hope you are haranguing them as murders and animal abusers for using said products.

When your friends are in pain or dying...i hope it it is you who withholds lifesaving or pain revealing drugs..... show them all the photos and videos you want... and tell then they are bad people when they beg you with pain filled eyes.

next time you see an aids patient... or a kid dying of cancer... tell them how bad they are for using animal tested drugs.... how wrong they are.

when its your turn to be in pain, or sick and dying.... be sure to not to take any drugs to save your life.... im counting on you to stay true to your agenda.



sorry... all peta supporters.... are flat out hypocrites. I can almost guarantee you... you will all take the meds.... you would not deny or withhold drugs from your friends.

 

[AlexWA]

The nobility of the environmentalist. How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.

It already exists. What would you advocate for? Air, water and soil pollution, animal testing, over fishing, puppy mills, factory farms, clear cutting and deforestation, blowing up mountain tops, reducing protected forests and land, continuing finite resources, overpopulation, human supremacy, unsustainability, nuclear waste, war, killing reefs, etc etc?

 

[Colin]

My goal is not to force a vegan lifestyle on people or force PETA's philosophy onto people. Would I love it if people could see the cruelty that we inflict on animals and change their way of living, of course, but I am realistic enough to know that not everybody, people like you for example, are capable of a vegan lifestyle or seeing animals as more than just test dummies for products, food for barbecues, and disposable property for entertainment.

With regards to your pet comment I have a dog that lives in my apartment with me that I rescued from abandonment, so from that alone I am not saying that you can't have pets, but it should be for the right reasons. Zoos are a double edged sword as well. They do help breed endangered species which is great but at the same time they keep animals behind cages for human entertainment. I am not saying shut them down, but their practices should be adjusted in my opinion.

I know you want to try and cast me as some sort of eco-terrorist but you are basing that on just a very few comments on mine regarding animals and the environment. You can be for something with a lot of passion and motivation without being a "terrorist". I have never been arrested at any the various environmental protests and rallies that I have attended since high school. The only thing that comes close is that i've been what the police call "detained" before but released a short time later, so I don't go around causing harmful trouble or doing illegal things. I think that sometimes a person needs to challenge barriers and confront with a loud voice and action towards established ways of thinking but you will not see me physically harm anybody.

first off.... you have a goal. That is agenda.

the agenda... your goal...as you clearly stated....is to force people to view and or slaughter animals.... to make them see where there meat comes from. To change them by guilt or disgust.


so ive asked you before...lets try again..

do you or anyone you know use over the counter or prescription drugs?
How about makeup, hair products or deodorants?

Physically forcing someone to watch or view is different from making it difficult for them not to see something. I am not saying we should take a person against their will and force them into a chair and show the footage of cruelty but people should know what happens behind the scenes. Every day people get bombarded with advertisements and marketing strategies. I am wanting that same thing but for a better purpose.

As for your question of course I know people that use those products. Any product that is tested on animals or that come from the use of animals is wrong in my opinion. I don't deny using products at one point in my life that were like that but now I try my best to use products that are not.

So if you were seriously ill, you would refuse life saving drugs if they were tested on animals?

 

[jillian]

Let’s think about what the world would be like based on the goals of people like AlexWA. For a start there would be no farming of cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens or any other livestock. There would be no meat, eggs or milk, no cheeses, yoghurts or creams in our grocery stores. Apart from losing a major part of our food supply, farmers around the world would lose their livelihoods. The jobless totals would increase significantly.
Fishing and hunting would become criminal acts and materials such as leather and fur would be banned. Welcome to a world of plastic shoes! All zoos would be shut down with the result that the conservation and preservation work done by many zoos in maintaining species that only exist in captivity would end. And, if you factor in the goals of PETA, we would have no pets!
Now where’s my eggs and bacon!

you also forgot the fact that absent hunting, herds wouldn't be culled and deer would die of starvation rather than feeding people.

we are part of a food chain. i'm ok with it.

a fish is not a rat is not a dog is not a boy

 

[Montrovant]

Humans are animals and a pretty large minority apparently lack the intelligence to see that they are destroying the planet.

And yet still have more intelligence than any other species.....

Again, until you can show me that your dog understands the effect it's actions may have on the environment, or that a cow understands it is destined to be my dinner, the idea that other animals are on equal footing with humans when it comes to reasoning and intelligence is absurd. Mistaking compassion for animal life with equality in intelligence is, in itself, a stupid thing.

Somethings intelligence or ability to reason does not determine its value or right to life. All life on this planet has something to contribute to the super-organism that is called Earth. To say that just because the human species is able to do certain things that another species can't do therefore the human species is now superior and has dominion over the other species is not only arrogant but incredibly vicious. Intelligence the way we see it is a human invention. Basically an animal's intelligence is determined based on a comparison to what we deem intelligent, that being a comparison to human intelligence, and from that determination we impose value and worth onto those animals. We are basically an animal acting as a speciest dictator to the natural world just because we can add 2+2 and get 4.

I didn't say that intelligence determines right to life (although I think, in the end, it kind of does, but that's a personal opinion). If I recall, you are the one who brought up intelligence comparisons, saying something about how humans are only smart in certain ways and animals in others, in what seemed an attempt to assign value to animal life based on intelligence.

The human race IS superior in a number of ways. That's just the way it is. In other ways we are inferior. Some of the ways we are superior, however, have led to our being the very top of the food chain.

I'm curious as to what you do think determines an organism's right to life. You seem to have rejected any comparisons between the animals you seek to protect and any plants or bacteria or viruses....other than relative intelligence, what are the factors that increase the right to live in some of these things?

I am most certainly a speciesist in the sense that I consider human life more valuable than any other. That doesn't mean, or even imply, a need to be cruel or abusive to any animals. I've got no problem with fighting for better conditions for food animals; have at it. We are not at a point where the world living on a vegan diet (which is entirely based on intelligence, and anti-plant speciesism, but I digress ) is reasonable. There are still too many people around the globe starving; I certainly wouldn't consider telling them they can't eat meat if they are lucky enough to get it!

 

[Luddly Neddite]

There is a difference between making bad decisions and lack of intelligence. Do you believe that animals, faced with the possibility that they were destroying the planet, would either understand what that meant or care? Or do most animals simply live with no real understanding of the world?

This is not to say animals should be looked at as unworthy of protection, rather it is just to argue against the idea that humanity is not more intelligent than most or all animal species.

Humans are animals and a pretty large minority apparently lack the intelligence to see that they are destroying the planet.

seriously?

you know, i love my rabbit. he's a great pal... affectionate, sweet, loving.

but he isn't the equal of my son.

And yet still have more intelligence than any other species.....

Again, until you can show me that your dog understands the effect it's actions may have on the environment, or that a cow understands it is destined to be my dinner, the idea that other animals are on equal footing with humans when it comes to reasoning and intelligence is absurd. Mistaking compassion for animal life with equality in intelligence is, in itself, a stupid thing.

Where in this thread, or in any other, have I even HINTED that non-human animals are the intellectual equal of human animals?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The nobility of the environmentalist. How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.

We already do.

They're called Republicans.

 

[Montrovant]

Humans are animals and a pretty large minority apparently lack the intelligence to see that they are destroying the planet.

seriously?

you know, i love my rabbit. he's a great pal... affectionate, sweet, loving.

but he isn't the equal of my son.

And yet still have more intelligence than any other species.....

Again, until you can show me that your dog understands the effect it's actions may have on the environment, or that a cow understands it is destined to be my dinner, the idea that other animals are on equal footing with humans when it comes to reasoning and intelligence is absurd. Mistaking compassion for animal life with equality in intelligence is, in itself, a stupid thing.

Where in this thread, or in any other, have I even HINTED that non-human animals are the intellectual equal of human animals?

AlexWA did, and as you were joining in a discussion involving that very topic, based on the content of your post, it seemed to imply an agreement. Sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented your position.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Let’s think about what the world would be like based on the goals of people like AlexWA. For a start there would be no farming of cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens or any other livestock. There would be no meat, eggs or milk, no cheeses, yoghurts or creams in our grocery stores. Apart from losing a major part of our food supply, farmers around the world would lose their livelihoods. The jobless totals would increase significantly.
Fishing and hunting would become criminal acts and materials such as leather and fur would be banned. Welcome to a world of plastic shoes! All zoos would be shut down with the result that the conservation and preservation work done by many zoos in maintaining species that only exist in captivity would end. And, if you factor in the goals of PETA, we would have no pets!
Now where’s my eggs and bacon!

you also forgot the fact that absent hunting, herds wouldn't be culled and deer would die of starvation rather than feeding people.

we are part of a food chain. i'm ok with it.

a fish is not a rat is not a dog is not a boy

Actually, deer are the biggest failure in a long line of wildlife "management" failures. Because of over hunting, they were near extinction. Then the hunters decided to manage them so they would always have them to shoot at. They starve because of something called "salad bowl management". They've managed them so badly, they're now considered vermin and are the cause of hundreds of car accidents every year.

Also, white tail deer account for a very small percentage of animals "hunted". By far and away, most are birds. Strictly speaking, hunting is not culling because hunters try to kill the very best, biggest, strongest individuals, thus weakening the herd.

According to the NRA, less than 6% of Americans hunt. That does not mean that 94% area against hunting however. Some people are in favor of it but don't participate. And, some are ambivalent.

The phrase "a fish is not a rat is not a dog is not a boy" was taken out of context and originally did not include "fish". It was first said by a scientist when he was describing the nervous system of all mammals and that they feel pain just as we do. To that extent, it is absolutely accurate. In turn, he was referring to a statement made by Jeremy Bentham that we should not consider whether or not they can think but rather, that they can feel.

Ever since the scientific phrase was repeated by Ingrid Newkirk, it has been used to mean anything but the way it was originally used.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

What is the most effective way of making animal rights a real political and ethical focus in this country? In addition, what is the most effective way to influence the masses towards a biocentric focus towards life instead of the superiority of the human species?

Should people be shown the images of slaughterhouses and processing plants around the country in order to truly know how they got their pork chop? Should people be forced to help kill and gut their cow before they sit down for their steak at a restaurant? Should people be allowed to use animals as entertainment even when that animal has no concept of what it is that is it being exploited for? Should people be allowed to abuse or neglect an animal? Should people experience the same anguish that animals feel when experimented on in order for them to have empathy for that life?

This is not an attempt to change minds. I am genuinely curious what everybody simply thinks on the matter. I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism, but i am just wondering what your thoughts are.

You can already decide to go to a BETTER regulator and buy only Kosher or Halal meat products.

We don't have much leverage on the crack whore mom who's abusing her kids. Not likely we're gonna get a political solution better than demanding slightly more humane treatment.

Go see what 4H and Future Farmers are doing. You might be surprised how much that helps..

Almost all animals slaughtered in the US are killed using so-called Kosher methods. Instead of being clean and humane as was originally intended, its incredibly cruel because captive bolt/hoist and shackle is cheap.

 

[Katzndogz]

The nobility of the environmentalist. How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.

It already exists. What would you advocate for? Air, water and soil pollution, animal testing, over fishing, puppy mills, factory farms, clear cutting and deforestation, blowing up mountain tops, reducing protected forests and land, continuing finite resources, overpopulation, human supremacy, unsustainability, nuclear waste, war, killing reefs, etc etc?

I bought a Keurig coffee maker just so I could throw away the plastic cups. Plastic grocery bags are illegal, so I bought my own small trash bags and use them as single use bags. I don't recycle, repurpose or reuse. I drive a big SUV. It's a personal rebellion. I advocate for the exploitation of natural resources.

 

[Newby]

Humans are animals and a pretty large minority apparently lack the intelligence to see that they are destroying the planet.

And yet still have more intelligence than any other species.....

Again, until you can show me that your dog understands the effect it's actions may have on the environment, or that a cow understands it is destined to be my dinner, the idea that other animals are on equal footing with humans when it comes to reasoning and intelligence is absurd. Mistaking compassion for animal life with equality in intelligence is, in itself, a stupid thing.

Somethings intelligence or ability to reason does not determine its value or right to life. All life on this planet has something to contribute to the super-organism that is called Earth. To say that just because the human species is able to do certain things that another species can't do therefore the human species is now superior and has dominion over the other species is not only arrogant but incredibly vicious. Intelligence the way we see it is a human invention. Basically an animal's intelligence is determined based on a comparison to what we deem intelligent, that being a comparison to human intelligence, and from that determination we impose value and worth onto those animals. We are basically an animal acting as a speciest dictator to the natural world just because we can add 2+2 and get 4.

So, you're against legalized abortion I take it?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The nobility of the environmentalist. How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.

It already exists. What would you advocate for? Air, water and soil pollution, animal testing, over fishing, puppy mills, factory farms, clear cutting and deforestation, blowing up mountain tops, reducing protected forests and land, continuing finite resources, overpopulation, human supremacy, unsustainability, nuclear waste, war, killing reefs, etc etc?

I bought a Keurig coffee maker just so I could throw away the plastic cups. Plastic grocery bags are illegal, so I bought my own small trash bags and use them as single use bags. I don't recycle, repurpose or reuse. I drive a big SUV. It's a personal rebellion. I advocate for the exploitation of natural resources.

Being vegetarian negates the negative impact of ALL of those lifestyle choices.

Not to mention that you could finally lose all that weight, feel better, have more energy and be healthier while you lived a longer life.

The word "vegetarian" comes from the Greek word, vegetare, meaning "to enliven" which comes from the Latin word vegetus, meaning " fresh, sound, or lively".

On the negative side, George Bernard Shaw complained that being vegetarian means outliving your friends.

Leo Tolstoy like to entertain. He once had a woman tell him that she did not want to attend his dinner party unless he would serve her meat. When she arrived, she found a chicken tied to the leg of her chair. Tolstoy told her she would have kill, butcher and prepare the chicken herself as he could not and would not.

Olympian vegetarians | Life and style | guardian.co.uk

Lst of vegan / vegetarian athletes

Kathy Freston: Healthy Living, Conscious Eating

Have you considered taking up cigarettes?

 

[9thIDdoc]

"Making animal rights and biocentrism a major political topic. "

A silly subject that only trivialises People's rights. I am the top of the food chain and that's the way I like it.

 

[nodoginnafight]

The best way to encourage people to change their dietary habits is to make better food cheaper, quicker, and taste better.

People don't buy all those McDonalds hamburgers because they are concerned about a healthy, balanced diet. They do it because it's cheap and convenient and it tastes good to them (because that is what their taste buds have grown accustomed to).

If you could get fruits, leafy green vegetables, etc ... at the drive through and if they were cheap enough ... people would start eating more of it.

Eating well is more expensive and time consuming - THAT is why so few people do it.

 

[9thIDdoc]

The word "vegetarian" comes from the Greek word, vegetare, meaning "to enliven" which comes from the Latin word vegetus, meaning " fresh, sound, or lively".

Really? I have heard that "vegetarian" comes from a Native American word meaning "lousey hunter".

 

[PaulS1950]

Humans are omnivorous. We get certain proteins from meat and meat products that are difficult to get in enough quality and quantity in a purely vegan diet. Most vegetarians (in my experience) eat some meat - fish, eggs, cheese or other "animal" sourced foods. If you were a pure vegan you would have to eat ten times as much (by weight) as the rest of us. It takes that much more food to get the nutrition that you get in an omnivorous diet. Wolves, another omnivorous mammal, have to eat a certian amount of rodents in order to be capable of reproduction. We get enzymes, minerals, vitamins, carbs, fat, protein and fiber from meat products. We also get clothes, and other accessories from the animal world. Most of it is raised to provide meat, leather, gelatin and horn but some of us still hunt in places not called "supermarkets". I am all for being mindful of where your food comes from and respecting its participation in making your life what it is but keep in mind that animals, wild or raised rarely die of old age, peacefully in their sleep. The week and the old are culled by other animals and the injured are are fair game for everything from rodents to bears. Those beasts that are raised for food are just that... food. when it is time to havest there is no quiet way to die unless you want barbituants and poisons in your meal. A bolt gun to the back of the head is about as instantaneous as it gets and is a lot better than the old sledge hammer days.
I respectfully thank the animals, vegatables and the minerals that provide me with life through their sacrifice as I prepare each meal and before we eat. I don't see many vegans doing that - it must be OK to kill a vegatable or rip off its leaves without a thought for what it is providing you and at what cost.
Don't tell me you are a vegatarian if you eat fish or milk products - you are only lying to yourself because I know better.

 

[asterism]

The nobility of the environmentalist. How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.

It already exists. What would you advocate for? Air, water and soil pollution, animal testing, over fishing, puppy mills, factory farms, clear cutting and deforestation, blowing up mountain tops, reducing protected forests and land, continuing finite resources, overpopulation, human supremacy, unsustainability, nuclear waste, war, killing reefs, etc etc?

Why do you use a porn model's picture as your avatar?

4 results - TinEye

NewbieNudes.com, The World's Best Amateur Nude Community - Profiles - Viewing Profile of Member: GirlNamedSam  

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The nobility of the environmentalist. How can you argue with that?

What we need is an anti environmental movement.

It already exists. What would you advocate for? Air, water and soil pollution, animal testing, over fishing, puppy mills, factory farms, clear cutting and deforestation, blowing up mountain tops, reducing protected forests and land, continuing finite resources, overpopulation, human supremacy, unsustainability, nuclear waste, war, killing reefs, etc etc?

Why do you use a porn model's picture as your avatar?

4 results - TinEye

NewbieNudes.com, The World's Best Amateur Nude Community - Profiles - Viewing Profile of Member: GirlNamedSam**

OMG, you mean that's not really syrenn??

LOL, gotta love the holler-than-thou rw's.
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Watching a documentary earlier about how we're trashing the whole damn planet just so we can eat dead animals, I couldn't help but notice that the rw's support the very people who benefit the most from our addiction to charred flesh.

Is there anyone who doesn't know that most antibiotics and most "food" plants go to feed livestock?