Making animal rights and biocentrism a major political topic

[Intense]

an extremist to one person is a well intentioned and ethical person to another. If forcing views on someone through media, guilt, or other forms of communication ends some of the obscenely cruel treatment many people and companies direct towards animals then that's a necessary evil in my opinion.

That's just it. It's Your Opinion, which becomes an offense to others, when it is imposed without regard or imposed by decree. You have every right to your perspective on the fair and ethical treatment of Animals. Best to live by example and try to educate. Matters of Conscience belong to Each of Us, Individually, in part that translates to Us Not being able to force feed against Someones will. Government by the consent of the governed does have consequences, both good and bad. Stupidity is on the list.

Ideas, perspectives, political stances, and opinions are imposed on people every single day. Showing people the cruelty behind certain businesses and practices is free speech and in many cases necessary in my opinion.

Within reason. When reason is abandoned, one ends up doing more harm than good to their cause. You don't want to give your cause a black eye, nor your movement a bad reputation. Private Property, Privacy, are Unalienable Rights, when yours is under attack, I'm sure, you realize the injustice of the offending action. Even here, for Example, Graphic Images are Moderated, to Protect, not from reality, but, shock and hurt, among other things. Permanently Scaring the unsuspecting, with shock value, weighing against permanently slamming shut channels of communication as a result, serves what end.

Even now, your message of protecting animals against abuse, even more humane ways of animal slaughter, is side tracked by the discussion of why should you be permitted to say or do anything that you perceive will further a cause.

 

[Intense]

I'm concerned about both

All change starts from within. Volunteering is generally always a good thing. Doing something, helps in more ways than one.

I have and still do volunteer for a number of causes in the Seattle area. My concern for humans though is less due to the fact that in many cases humans have the ability to help themselves and control their own destiny whereas animals and our environment are at many times at our mercy. We experiment on animals, we use them as entertainment, and we enslave them for various uses. We pollute and destroy the Earth due to humans misguided belief that we are the superior species that has dominion over everything. It it those areas of concern in my opinion that need to be changed, not my point of view.

My concern here is your method, not your cause. "Anything goes" just does not fly, further, it sometimes gets people hurt. As for free will and self determination, why is it then that so much is spent on advertising? Why, even, are so many political conversations, reduced to parroting 30 second sound bites, repeatedly. We are so beyond, even being able to use our own words.

 

[AlexWA]

That's just it. It's Your Opinion, which becomes an offense to others, when it is imposed without regard or imposed by decree. You have every right to your perspective on the fair and ethical treatment of Animals. Best to live by example and try to educate. Matters of Conscience belong to Each of Us, Individually, in part that translates to Us Not being able to force feed against Someones will. Government by the consent of the governed does have consequences, both good and bad. Stupidity is on the list.

Ideas, perspectives, political stances, and opinions are imposed on people every single day. Showing people the cruelty behind certain businesses and practices is free speech and in many cases necessary in my opinion.

Within reason. When reason is abandoned, one ends up doing more harm than good to their cause. You don't want to give your cause a black eye, nor your movement a bad reputation. Private Property, Privacy, are Unalienable Rights, when yours is under attack, I'm sure, you realize the injustice of the offending action. Even here, for Example, Graphic Images are Moderated, to Protect, not from reality, but, shock and hurt, among other things. Permanently Scaring the unsuspecting, with shock value, weighing against permanently slamming shut channels of communication as a result, serves what end.

Even now, your message of protecting animals against abuse, even more humane ways of animal slaughter, is side tracked by the discussion of why should you be permitted to say or do anything that you perceive will further a cause.

Most people have no idea where their meats came from and how it was processed. Thanksgiving is coming up for example. Millions of turkeys are being killed right now in preparation for the holiday. People choose not to know because if they know then they will feel guilt. I think sometimes it is necessary for people to be shown something without knowing it is coming so that they are confronted with what happens.

Not all instances are appropriate of course but the majority in my opinion are. If more people knew the cruelty behind the meat processing business and even in the scientific community with regards to research on animals I think they'd probably understand where animal rights activists are coming from. Not everybody of course since some people have no problems with the process and with animal testing.

 

[AlexWA]

All change starts from within. Volunteering is generally always a good thing. Doing something, helps in more ways than one.

I have and still do volunteer for a number of causes in the Seattle area. My concern for humans though is less due to the fact that in many cases humans have the ability to help themselves and control their own destiny whereas animals and our environment are at many times at our mercy. We experiment on animals, we use them as entertainment, and we enslave them for various uses. We pollute and destroy the Earth due to humans misguided belief that we are the superior species that has dominion over everything. It it those areas of concern in my opinion that need to be changed, not my point of view.

My concern here is your method, not your cause. "Anything goes" just does not fly, further, it sometimes gets people hurt. As for free will and self determination, why is it then that so much is spent on advertising? Why, even, are so many political conversations, reduced to parroting 30 second sound bites, repeatedly. We are so beyond, even being able to use our own words.

I am not out to physically hurt anybody. All I am saying is that people should be exposed sometimes to what animal cruelty looks like and how people contribute to that cruelty by being apathetic.

 

[Katzndogz]

I'm concerned about both

All change starts from within. Volunteering is generally always a good thing. Doing something, helps in more ways than one.

I have and still do volunteer for a number of causes in the Seattle area. My concern for humans though is less due to the fact that in many cases humans have the ability to help themselves and control their own destiny whereas animals and our environment are at many times at our mercy. We experiment on animals, we use them as entertainment, and we enslave them for various uses. We pollute and destroy the Earth due to humans misguided belief that we are the superior species that has dominion over everything. It it those areas of concern in my opinion that need to be changed, not my point of view.

Wouldn't the world be just such a better place if everyone just listened to you and did exactly what you say? Aren't people just impeding peace and harmony because they don't?

That's an indication of deep neuroticism. Humans ARE the superior species. It isn't cows, or elk, or tigers or housecats or even dogs. It is human beings. We cannot, however, destroy the Earth. There are limits. The Earth is quite capable of taking care of itself.

 

[AlexWA]

All change starts from within. Volunteering is generally always a good thing. Doing something, helps in more ways than one.

I have and still do volunteer for a number of causes in the Seattle area. My concern for humans though is less due to the fact that in many cases humans have the ability to help themselves and control their own destiny whereas animals and our environment are at many times at our mercy. We experiment on animals, we use them as entertainment, and we enslave them for various uses. We pollute and destroy the Earth due to humans misguided belief that we are the superior species that has dominion over everything. It it those areas of concern in my opinion that need to be changed, not my point of view.

Wouldn't the world be just such a better place if everyone just listened to you and did exactly what you say? Aren't people just impeding peace and harmony because they don't?

That's an indication of deep neuroticism. Humans ARE the superior species. It isn't cows, or elk, or tigers or housecats or even dogs. It is human beings. We cannot, however, destroy the Earth. There are limits. The Earth is quite capable of taking care of itself.

Humans claim to be the superior species but the only species that understands the claim that we make are humans. It is out of arrogance that humans pretend to be superior. All living organisms on this planet have value and contribute to the Earth. Earth itself is one massive living organism that relies on plants, animals, environmental cycles, and so on to survive. Humans are the only species that willingly does things to destroy and damage the Earth. Elf do not build smoke stacks, Bears do not dump car oil into rivers, Hemlock trees do not discard plastic bags into the ocean. The Earth is very powerful and can take care of itself, but only to an extent.

 

[eflatminor]

I myself am a proud vegan and advocate of animal rights and biocentrism...

You're free to eat twigs and bark for all I care. Leave the rest of us alone. I'm going hunting...for real food.

 

[Katzndogz]

It's a question of whether the unbalanced practice of veganism leads to an unbalanced mind and an unstable mental state. Or, whether it is people who are already unbalanced that become vegans. I've known a lot of vegans and pretty much across the board they believe they can personally save the earth. Mostly by telling other people what to do. People who eat balanced diets don't reach this degree of neuroticism. Many times, the offending vegan is very young and have the certainty of their lack of maturity it back up their specious claims. Quick, ask a teenager while they still know everything, is more than a joke. It's a fact of life. The error is in attributing an importance to bizarre ideas that they shouldn't have.

 

[AlexWA]

It's a question of whether the unbalanced practice of veganism leads to an unbalanced mind and an unstable mental state. Or, whether it is people who are already unbalanced that become vegans. I've known a lot of vegans and pretty much across the board they believe they can personally save the earth. Mostly by telling other people what to do. People who eat balanced diets don't reach this degree of neuroticism. Many times, the offending vegan is very young and have the certainty of their lack of maturity it back up their specious claims. Quick, ask a teenager while they still know everything, is more than a joke. It's a fact of life. The error is in attributing an importance to bizarre ideas that they shouldn't have.

Well that was a nice way of indirectly calling me mentally unstable, immature, bizarre, and neurotic. You do not have to eat meat, kill animals, or pollute the Earth in order to be considered stable and mature.

 

[Katzndogz]

It's a question of whether the unbalanced practice of veganism leads to an unbalanced mind and an unstable mental state. Or, whether it is people who are already unbalanced that become vegans. I've known a lot of vegans and pretty much across the board they believe they can personally save the earth. Mostly by telling other people what to do. People who eat balanced diets don't reach this degree of neuroticism. Many times, the offending vegan is very young and have the certainty of their lack of maturity it back up their specious claims. Quick, ask a teenager while they still know everything, is more than a joke. It's a fact of life. The error is in attributing an importance to bizarre ideas that they shouldn't have.

Well that was a nice way of indirectly calling me mentally unstable, immature, bizarre, and neurotic. You do not have to eat meat, kill animals, or pollute the Earth in order to be considered stable and mature.

You do to have to consider these important political topics. The error is in attaching an importance to bizarre ideas that they should not have.

 

[AlexWA]

It's a question of whether the unbalanced practice of veganism leads to an unbalanced mind and an unstable mental state. Or, whether it is people who are already unbalanced that become vegans. I've known a lot of vegans and pretty much across the board they believe they can personally save the earth. Mostly by telling other people what to do. People who eat balanced diets don't reach this degree of neuroticism. Many times, the offending vegan is very young and have the certainty of their lack of maturity it back up their specious claims. Quick, ask a teenager while they still know everything, is more than a joke. It's a fact of life. The error is in attributing an importance to bizarre ideas that they shouldn't have.

Well that was a nice way of indirectly calling me mentally unstable, immature, bizarre, and neurotic. You do not have to eat meat, kill animals, or pollute the Earth in order to be considered stable and mature.

You do to have to consider these important political topics. The error is in attaching an importance to bizarre ideas that they should not have.

So i should only attach importance to political issues that are traditional issues or that what you and people like you deem to be important??? My beliefs and what I deem to be important are not bizarre to a whole lot of people.

 

[Ernie S.]

Why would one want to.

The same reason people want gun control laws, abortion laws, seat belt laws, healthcare, fishing laws, power usage rules, social programs, and other issues addressed and talked about...they care about the issue and see the importance of it. For example I would consider animal rights to be more important than spending billions of dollars on a new attack helicopter.

food won't protect us from bad guys.
Yes food. Does broccoli have rights? Or only food you consider soft and cuddly?

 

[Katzndogz]

Well that was a nice way of indirectly calling me mentally unstable, immature, bizarre, and neurotic. You do not have to eat meat, kill animals, or pollute the Earth in order to be considered stable and mature.

You do to have to consider these important political topics. The error is in attaching an importance to bizarre ideas that they should not have.

So i should only attach importance to political issues that are traditional issues or that what you and people like you deem to be important??? My beliefs and what I deem to be important are not bizarre to a whole lot of people.

They are important TO YOU and to the small group you belong to. You have attached an importance to animal rights and earth rights that is far beyond that of everyone else. It is the same kind of bizarre thinking that attaches importance to an on-line game or the activities of extra terrestials. These are matters of great importance to the individuals, although not widely held. Looking for the approval of others to what is your personally held opinion is what is immature, bizarre and unstable and yes, neurotic also.

 

[Katzndogz]

You make choices in your own life that you perceive benefits you. It becomes both bizarre and unbalanced when you tell others to do the same thing as you are doing and even worse should you seek to pass laws advancing your personal decisions as the decisions that should be made for others.

 

[GoshDarnItToHec]

Are you a libertarian?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

My point of view ... grew up on a family farm, got a blue ribbon at the county fair for my calf, have participated in the slaughter of family owned animals and have toured two slaughterhouses, including the "kill floor", am very physically active, have more energy than I did in my 20s, feel great every single day, come from a family whose every member, except me, has heart disease, obesity, diabetes. I have two siblings left, both of whom have had heart attacks and are now diabetic and very obese. Two old sibs have died of heart attacks as did both my mother and father. And, I've been vegetarian/vegan for more than 30 years. I don't consider myself vegan because I do occasionally eat dairy away from home. (Yes, I know its bad for me but, sometimes, it can't be helped.)

There are three reasons why people stop eating meat:
1. Health: as in my case, with such a strong history of meat-eating-related illness, it would be stupid for me to eat animals.
2. Environment: The growing, transporting and slaughter causes more harm to our planet than any other activity.
3. Ethical - because, no matter how cruel you think it might be, you cannot imagine the reality of our "food animal" industry.

None of this is new or unknown. One would have to live under a rock or in a cave not to know that eating meat is not a good thing and that it has been found to be a causative factor in many diseases. Its like smoking - there are lots of reasons NOT to do it but not one reason to do it.

Yes, I know that some would argue this but, again, just like smoking, there are many who just don't want to know or change their own lives. That, of course, is an individual choice.

If you don't want to go veg, consider cutting back. If you have kids, you know that children as young as two years old have been found to have elevated cholesterol due to the high fat American diet. Why not have one day a week where you serve only healthy food? Or, cut the portion size.

There are any number of websites showing the facts of meat eating. If you want to know, start with Earth Save, the site of John Robbins of Baskin-Robbins. In his book, Diet For A New America, he writes of telling his father and uncle that he could not live with making money off of a product that tortures animals, harms the planet and poisons children. He was, of course, disowned -- until his uncle died of heart disease and he and his father finally 'made up'. The book was nominated for a Pulitzer the year it was written. He has since written several other books - all are well worth reading.

If you don't know or don't believe the incredible degree of cruelty involved in our food animal industry, check out meetyourmeat.com. Someone above mentioned Thanksgiving turkeys. The turkeys we eat can't even reproduce themselves. They are all produced by artificial insemination.

Someone else mentioned a family owned dairy farm. Fact is, family farms are an endangered species. Most animal AND vegetable raising is now done by huge corporations and on an assembly line basis. Most of the workers are illegals (not usually from Mexico but some are). They are treated as bad as the animals and they have no legal recourse. IOW, we are running a third world right here in the US. Back when Americans were hired by slaughterhouses, the turnover was 300%. Now, the huge mega-corp's are making a bigger profit, charging the consumer more and taking work away from Americans. if you eat meat, you are supporting that.

And, someone mentioned hunting ... I live in an area where there is a lot of hunting and I grew up with hunting. One one hand, I have no use for the reality of hunting and I've seen enough of it to last me my whole life. OTOH, I almost admire anyone who is willing to do their own dirty work. BUT - killing and cleaning a deer is a little girl's tea party compared to an assembly line slaughterhouse.

Slaughterhouse meat is diseased and filthy. Look up "fecal soup" or as the workers call it, "shit soup" and think about that when someone says they have a stomachache after stuffing themselves with dead turkey on Thursday. Thanks to the R, there are very few inspectors. Years ago, I remember that they had, on average, 3 seconds to inspect a carcass and they did not inspect every single one. That means you're eating all sorts of things that you would not eat if you knew about it. And, if the R get their way, there will be even less accountability from the big corporate farms.

Don't make the mistake of thinking there is nothing "good" to eat if you don't eat chunks of charred bodies.

Consider this: a meat based diet gives you 4 choices ... dead cow, dead pig, dead bird and dead fish. Take that limitation off your plate and you suddenly find you have literally thousands of choices. And, its very easy and much cheaper to eat a gourmet vegetarian diet than to eat what is considered a normal American fat-based diet.

If you don't want to know any of this, then don't. You have that choice.

You could not pay me to eat a piece of dead animal.

 

[Katzndogz]

Are you a libertarian?

No.

 

[Katzndogz]

I respect someone making the decision in their own lives as to whether or not to eat meat. Making that decision for me is where I draw the line. It's like the people who think the way to nirvana is to live gluten free. It's okay to make that decision for yourself, not good to want to pass laws banning bread.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

About animal "rights".

They don't have any.

Humans have "rights" because they fight for them. No one gives rights to humans. They only take away rights because that's the nature of "rights". (Pisses me off to see people saying that "god" gives us rights. That demeans the incredible sacrifice our soldiers, present and past, have made for the rights we argue about every day.)

That doesn't mean we should torture other living creatures for fun, profit or food. We are human beings and we SHOULD be better than that.

If consumers, as a block, said they would not buy what is produced by animal growers, transporters and slaughterhouses, the industry would change over night.

If we're going to eat dead animals, surely there is no reason why we can't demand that it be produced humanely and safely and that the end product is safe to feed our children.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Many people are ignorant about the reasons to avoid gluten. Most who don't eat gluten are allergic to it.

"Nirvana" is baking one's own bread instead of gagging down the garbage sold by such places as WalMart.

BTW, the lovely brown color of factory-produced baked goods is the result of a substance made from the urine of dead animals. If bread says it has 'added fiber', it used be that sawdust was added. I believe that may be against "regulations" now but maybe not. I don't eat that crap so I haven't kept up with the regulations.