Keep Finland and Sweden Out of Nato.

[toomuchtime_]

So far Turkey is keeping Sweden and Finland out of NATO, and so far he is suceeding.

Ergodan is accusing both countries of supporting terrorism.


"When Erdogan talks of “terrorists” in this context, he means the Kurdish Workers’ Party, or the PKK – a Kurdish Marxist separatist movement that has been fighting Turkish forces on-and-off since the 1980s. It operates mostly in southeastern Turkey and parts of northern Iraq.

The PKK is classified as a terrorist organization by Turkey, as well as by the U.S., Canada, Australia and the European Union.

In fact, Sweden was one of the first countries to designate the group as a terrorist organization in 1984."


So there you have it. He has a point.

Not much of a point. Sweden does have a small Kurdish population mostly living in its capitol and it may be that some of these support the PKK, but there is no evidence the Swedish government supports the PKK, although the terrorist designation of the PKK has become controversial in the EU.

Turkey, itself, is a state sponsor of terrorism, supporting Hamas, widely condemned as a terrorist organization, and allowing it to use Turkey as a base of operations to plan and carry out terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

 

[skye]

Not much of a point. Sweden does have a small Kurdish population mostly living in its capitol and it may be that some of these support the PKK, but there is no evidence the Swedish government supports the PKK, although the terrorist designation of the PKK has become controversial in the EU.

Turkey, itself, is a state sponsor of terrorism, supporting Hamas, widely condemned as a terrorist organization, and allowing it to use Turkey as a base of operations to plan and carry out terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

Ergodan is also asking for the extradition of PPK members from Sweden and Finland for NATO bid.

Ankara wants both to stop PKK activities in their countries and drop arms export ban against Turkey.


It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Turkey demands extradition of PKK members from Sweden, Finland for Nato bid

Ankara wants both to stop PKK activities in their countries and drop arms export ban against Turkey

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Open Bolt]

Ergodan is also asking for the extradition of PPK members from Sweden and Finland for NATO bid.
Ankara wants both to stop PKK activities in their countries and drop arms export ban against Turkey.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

It's unreasonable when you consider that the PKK are decent people who are only trying to save themselves from Turkey's attempt to commit genocide against them.

 

[skye]

It's unreasonable when you consider that the PKK are decent people who are only trying to save themselves from Turkey's attempt to commit genocide against them.

I don't have a dog in this fight.

I am just explaining the facts.

 

[Open Bolt]

I don't have a dog in this fight.
I am just explaining the facts.

The facts are the PKK are the good guys and Turkey are the bad guys.

It is not reasonable to hand genocide victims over to the people who are committing genocide against them.

 

[skye]

The facts are the PKK are the good guys and Turkey are the bad guys.

It is not reasonable to hand genocide victims over to the people who are committing genocide against them.

Doesn't matter what you think or not.

Finland and Sweden are out of NATO until this issue is resolved.

 

[Open Bolt]

Doesn't matter what you think or not.
Finland and Sweden are out of NATO until this issue is resolved.

Kick Turkey out of NATO and tell Russia that they are welcome to invade Turkey.

Issue resolved.

 

[skye]

Kick Turkey out of NATO and tell Russia that they are welcome to invade Turkey.

Issue resolved.

We'll see what happens, not that easy.... but we'll see how this unfolds.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Ergodan is also asking for the extradition of PPK members from Sweden and Finland for NATO bid.

Ankara wants both to stop PKK activities in their countries and drop arms export ban against Turkey.


It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Turkey demands extradition of PKK members from Sweden, Finland for Nato bid

Ankara wants both to stop PKK activities in their countries and drop arms export ban against Turkey

www.middleeasteye.net

Except that there is no evidence of PKK activities in either country. What really has Erdogan's panties in a bunch is that Finland and Sweden banned arms sales to Turkey because of the atrocities Turkey committed against Kurds in Syria.

 

[Dr Grump]

Let idiots join in NATO

Here Helsinki and Stockholm in 2023

Not if they join NATO they won't. Looks more like St Petersburg and Moscow to me...

 

[Dr Grump]

Putin start the war!? Were they not bloody freaks from NATO who moved the borders of their aggressive, hostile to Russia bloc to the borders of Russia?
Who staged a fascist coup in Ukraine and for 8 years supplied Ukrainian fascists with weapons and trained them in the war with Russia?
How can a country populated by such simpletons be allowed to have nuclear weapons?..

Hello comrade. How is Moscow these days?

 

[Dr Grump]

G

Does it say somewhere in the contract that all russian money abroad will be confiscated? No? Well, then you can wipe your ass with this contract.
Just as the finns wiped themselves with the treaty on the eternal neutrality of Finland.
You don't think that only Russia should follow contracts and agreements, and "civilized nations" who love freedom so much are free to do what they want?

Go live in Russia. It's a fucking dump thanks to Putin and his oligarchs...

 

[Silver Cat]

That is incorrect. If Russia starts a nuclear war with NATO, Americans are willing to give our lives to ensure that Russia is destroyed.

No. When, previous times the USA were faced the choice between a local defeat and the total annihilation - they've always choose a local defeat.

They may be unwilling to rely on us, but we'll still be there for them.

Bla-bla-bla. It's just an empty rhetoric.

That did not make it OK for Russia to invade Georgia.

No. The Georgian attack against the Russian peacekeepers and Russian citizens (ethnic Ossetians) did.

There is a difference between "Cuba being a Soviet ally" (which we allowed) and "Cuba hosting nuclear missiles" (which we did not allow).

There is a difference between "Ukraine joining NATO" (which is like Cuba being allied with the Soviets) and "Ukraine hosting nuclear missiles" (which so far no one has proposed doing).

Actually, de jure, Cuba as any other independent state has right to host Soviet nuclear missiles. As well, as Turkey, Italy and the UK has right to host American ones. As well as Eastern Europe has right to host significant conventional NATO forces or even American nuclear weapon.
Back in 1962 the USA has a choice:
1) To start a large scale invasion in Cuba before significant Soviet forces were deployed there, and continue strike program of the nuclearisation in Europe. This would lead to collapse of the Warsaw's Pact in 1968 and, likely, collapse of the USSR in 1973.
2) To start a limited military operation (naval quarantaine of Cuba) dodge a bullet, and have a mutual acceptable treaty with the Soviet Union. - it was in our reality, but we can't be sure, that it was the best choice.
3) Do nothing and to be attacked in early 1963 by a sudden Soviet counter-force strike with the further sovietisation or elimination of the United States.

Russia consider militarisation of the Eastern Europe and militarisation of Ukraine as a vital threat. So, they do what is necessary to eliminate this threat.

There was no Serbian genocide against the Kosovars.

Yes, likely. The US attack against Serbia was a violation of the international law. So, what can we do about it?

The US has enough resources to keep Ukraine in the fight indefinitely. Perhaps Russia will run out of resources, but Ukraine will not.

Actually, even with unlimited weapon, fuel and ammo, Ukraine will run out of men in year or two (actually much earlier). I hope, you don't want to send an unlimited stream of American 'volunteers' to Ukraine. What is even more important, Russia, allied with China and India is economically unbeatable.

Our ICBMs are always ready to launch.

But the proper procedures take time. The best result of the drills was 7 minutes.

That is incorrect. There are always a minimum of eight Ohio submarines on patrol. Sometimes there are more than eight.

No.
There are 14 Ohio-class SSBNs. The normal cycle is a 77 day patrol followed by a 35 day replenishment and crew swap, but the Cold War is over and the number of patrols has dropped dramatically.

The current numbers are 18 Pacific patrols and 12 Atlantic patrols per year. Recent patrols have gotten a bit longer - some up to 100 days.

So in the Atlantic, 12 patrols * 77 days per patrol = 924 patrol-days. 12*100= 1200 patrol-days. So 2–3 boats on patrol at a time. And maybe 3–4 in the Pacific simultaneously. And 1–2 may be transiting to patrol and not “on station”.

Pacific submarines can't attack targets in the European part of Russia.

So, if the Russians won the initiative and choose the proper time for their attack, we have only two (or may be even one) SSBNs in the Atlantic. If the Russian Garmoniya system (or their hackers or spies or sattelites) are as good, as think some our backroom boys, and the Russians can more or less precisely reveal their position - we have none of them.
Anyway, two SSBNs means only 48 missiles with, say, 4 RVs each = 192 RVs which are slowing down to 4,8 km/s (and became good target for S-400) at the height, say, twenty kilometers.

No there couldn't. Russia has no ability to track our subs.

Many serious people think that they can have this ability.

Russian missile defenses will not be of any significance. Missile defenses are useless against a large attack.

192 RVs isn't a 'large attack'. ABD of the Moscow region can absorb it.

The President will always have enough time to launch the ICBMs. It only takes 80 seconds to launch the ICBMs even if it is done from out of the blue with no warning.

Source? AFAIK the best result was seven minutes. In 80 seconds they won't even wake up Sleepy Joe.

That is incorrect. If Joe is fatally wounded, Joe will always have the ability to still draw his gun and fatally wound Vlad before Joe dies.

If Joe is wounded in his right arm (or both arms), he won't be able to draw his gun.

Missile defenses are useless against a large attack. Joe will always be able to fatally wound Vlad.

192 RVs isn't a large attack. And ABD isn't the sole part of Vlad's vest. So are EMERCOM and RosReserve. Yes, some few tens of nuclear bursts can hurt significantly, but, definitely, not fatally. In the previous war the Germans destroyed more than two thousands of their cities and towns and killed more than twenty million citizens.

If Vlad shoots Joe, Joe will always choose to shoot back.

No, if Joe prefers to survive rather than kill Vlad. And this is the basic presumption of the deterrence game.

That is incorrect. If Russia is nuking NATO targets, any American president will always respond by nuking Russia.

No.

We Have No Nuclear Strategy

The U.S. can’t keep ignoring the threat these weapons pose.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Richard-H]

Technically, when they were allowed to vote - they voted anti-nationalistically. When they had a choice between an Ukrainian Poroshenko with his motto 'Army. Tongue. Faith.' and a Russian-speaking Jew Zelenskiy with his 'Let's make a deal.' and 'Allow people to speak their own language' 73,3% of voters (even without Crimea and Donbass) voted for Zelenskiy.
And who said, that so called 'Russian invasion' is not a part of the 'counter-coup'?

"so called 'Russian invasion'" ????



Seriously? I guess when Hitler invaded Russia, it was a counter-coup as well, right?

 

[Richard-H]

Not always. Europeans, from Austrians to Poles almost didn't fight back and surrendered.


As well as the Russians they had the choice - fight or flight or freeze response. But it were Britons who revived the Germans and destroyed European security system in thirties.

Austria was controlled by a pro-Nazi government that welcomed the Germans. Austrians are a Germanic people so Hitler considered them allies (Note: Hitler WAS Austrian)

The Poles fought back, but didn't have technology near to what the Germans had. The Poles were slaughtered.

The Russians had no choice. the Germans were murdering Russians by the hundreds of thousands. Hitler made it clear that he thought Russians were an inferior race and should be enslaved or terminated.

The French and the British allowed Germany to rebuild, which was a mistake, but they believed that no one would be stupid enough to start another world war after the first world war.

Hitler did not want to fight the British or the Americans. Both could have negotiated peace if they wanted.

 

[Ringo]

Just ask the Poles, Czechs and Hungarians how brutal the Russian occupation was.

Brutal occupation? I think the Czechs knew what a real brutal occupation was, that's why we didn't see such scenes during the german occupation:

Why? Because this Czech knew that the german tank would not stop and would move over him, as slavic untermensch deserved.
But for Soviet soldiers to act in this way, it was unthinkable, the Czech standing in front of the Soviet tank knew this very well, therefore he did not risk taking this PR photo.
Brutal occupation... It was the cowardice and anti-sovietism of the Czech leaders that allowed the germans to start the war in 1939. The Nazis received the Czech military industry, which, thanks to the disciplined work of czech workers, during the war allowed the Germans to give a significant percentage of German weapons, with which the nazis killed the soviet people.
There was such an anecdote - a Russian, a Yugoslav and a Czech met after the war.
The Russian says - I spent half of the war in a partisan detachment, and then joined the advancing Red Army. Yugoslav says - I also had a chance to fight in the partisans in the mountains of Yugoslavia for several years... The Czech sighed and said - You are lucky, that you could fight behind enemy lines, the germans forbade us to do it...
As for Hitler's Hungarian allies and their bloody crimes on soviet land... There is a myth, that the local command ordered in the Voronezh district, where Hungarian troops were operating, not to take them prisoner. Because they acted so cruelly against the civilian population. This, of course, is a myth, many Hungarians were captured and then, returning home, participated in the bloody crimes of 1956.
As for the Poles, ask, thanks to whom and with whose money, Warsaw, destroyed to the ground, was restored. And where did the echelons with food come from in the hungry post-war years. The modern рolish youth does not know this.

 

[Open Bolt]

No. When, previous times the USA were faced the choice between a local defeat and the total annihilation - they've always choose a local defeat.

There is a huge difference between "accepting local defeat instead of starting a nuclear war" and "waging a nuclear war after Russia has started a nuclear war".

If Russia starts a nuclear war with NATO, many hundreds of American nukes will rain down on Russia.

Bla-bla-bla. It's just an empty rhetoric.

It is not. If Russia nukes NATO, America will nuke Russia.

No. The Georgian attack against the Russian peacekeepers and Russian citizens (ethnic Ossetians) did.

No such attack ever happened. Georgia only attacked the invading Russian army.

Russia consider militarisation of the Eastern Europe and militarisation of Ukraine as a vital threat. So, they do what is necessary to eliminate this threat.

Russia did not consider it a threat, because no such militarization was even taking place.

It is taking place now, but only in response to Russia's invasion.

If Russia did not want such militarization to happen, all they needed to do is not invade other countries.

Yes, likely. The US attack against Serbia was a violation of the international law. So, what can we do about it?

I don't know. Can the Serbs get the International Criminal Court to assume jurisdiction over the 1999 war?

Actually, even with unlimited weapon, fuel and ammo, Ukraine will run out of men in year or two (actually much earlier).

A massive number of Russians are also dying. The longer the war drags on in Ukraine, the less ability Russia will have to invade NATO countries later on.

What is even more important, Russia, allied with China and India is economically unbeatable.

I doubt that.

I also doubt that India will side with Russia and China.

But the proper procedures take time. The best result of the drills was 7 minutes.

20 seconds.

No.
There are 14 Ohio-class SSBNs. The normal cycle is a 77 day patrol followed by a 35 day replenishment and crew swap, but the Cold War is over and the number of patrols has dropped dramatically.

The current numbers are 18 Pacific patrols and 12 Atlantic patrols per year. Recent patrols have gotten a bit longer - some up to 100 days.

So in the Atlantic, 12 patrols * 77 days per patrol = 924 patrol-days. 12*100= 1200 patrol-days. So 2–3 boats on patrol at a time. And maybe 3–4 in the Pacific simultaneously. And 1–2 may be transiting to patrol and not “on station”.

When I say "out on patrol" I mean "at sea". I am counting the submarines traveling to and from their station among the minimum of eight subs that are always at sea,

Pacific submarines can't attack targets in the European part of Russia.

They can if they travel to (or through) the Arctic Ocean.

So, if the Russians won the initiative and choose the proper time for their attack, we have only two (or may be even one) SSBNs in the Atlantic.

There will always be four subs on station for Russian targets but I don't know off hand how many will be in which ocean. Subs that are on station are counterforce only. They will be stationed where they can hit their assigned counterforce targets.

The subs that are "at sea but not on station" can take their time traveling to wherever they need to go in order to destroy their assigned cities. The cities will still be waiting for them when they get to their launch point.

The war may never even progress to the point of attacking cities. Russian cities will be attacked only if NATO cities are attacked. The war may well end after a massive counterforce exchange.

If the Russian Garmoniya system (or their hackers or spies or sattelites) are as good, as think some our backroom boys, and the Russians can more or less precisely reveal their position - we have none of them.

Russia has no such ability. No one does.

Anyway, two SSBNs means only 48 missiles with, say, 4 RVs each = 192 RVs

Your overall numbers are good. But it will be 18 missiles per sub with 5 warheads per missile.

Ohios now have only 20 missiles because we removed four launchers from each sub to comply with the START treaty (or whatever the current treaty is called). Further, two of those missiles now only carry a small tactical warhead.

which are slowing down to 4,8 km/s (and became good target for S-400) at the height, say, twenty kilometers.

The S-400 will be useless. Every warhead will be accompanied with a wide array of penetration aids.

Many serious people think that they can have this ability.

Those people are wrong.

192 RVs isn't a 'large attack'.

Sure it is. Every one of those RVs will be accompanied with penetration aids.

And it will be more than 192 RVs. We'll have at least eight Ohios at sea at any one time. Maybe even more than eight.

All of our ICBMs will be launched at Russia as well.

ABD of the Moscow region can absorb it.

Not possible. Missile defenses will be overwhelmed by our penetration aids.

Russia's missile defenses will also no longer exist after our counterforce attack.

Source? AFAIK the best result was seven minutes.

Same source as before.

"If the President did choose to respond with a nuclear attack, he would identify himself to military officials at the Pentagon with codes unique to him. These codes are recorded on an ID card, known as the “biscuit,” that the President carries at all times. Once identified, he would transmit the launch order to the Pentagon and STRATCOM. The Secretary of Defense would possibly contribute to the process by confirming that the order came from the President, but this role could also be filled by an officer in the National Military Command Center at the Pentagon. STRATCOM would implement the order by preparing to launch the weapons needed for the selected option. According to Bruce Blair, an expert on U.S. command and control, once the order is “transmitted to the war room, they would execute it in a minute or so.” If an immediate response was selected, “the (land-based) Minuteman missiles will fire in two minutes. The submarines will fire in 15 minutes.” Blair also noted that there is no way to reverse the order."

Product Details IF10521

Congressional Research Service, Congressional Reports, Congressional Reports, CRS

crsreports.congress.gov

I recommend downloading the most recent version since it is most up to date.

In 80 seconds they won't even wake up Sleepy Joe.

He will be woken up as soon as the launch is detected. Or as soon as our early warning satellites are attacked.

By the time radar confirms the incoming attack, everything will be all ready to go and it will only take 20 seconds to launch the ICBMs.

If Joe is wounded in his right arm (or both arms), he won't be able to draw his gun.

Not a valid comparison. The US will have a minimum of eight Ohios at sea (remember this is counting those traveling to and from their stations). The US will also launch all ICBMs when it is confirmed that they are under attack.

192 RVs isn't a large attack.

Sure it is. Each RV will be accompanied with penetration aids.

And it will be many more than 192 RVs once you count all the other Ohios, and once you count the 400 ICBMs that will also be launched.

And ABD isn't the sole part of Vlad's vest. So are EMERCOM and RosReserve.

Civil defense is a pipe dream.

Yes, some few tens of nuclear bursts can hurt significantly, but, definitely, not fatally. In the previous war the Germans destroyed more than two thousands of their cities and towns and killed more than twenty million citizens.

We will have the ability to hit Russia with more destruction than the entire world saw in the entirety of WWII, and do it all in the space of a single hour.

No, if Joe prefers to survive rather than kill Vlad. And this is the basic presumption of the deterrence game.

If Vlad shoots Joe, Joe will kill Vlad.

No.

We Have No Nuclear Strategy

The U.S. can’t keep ignoring the threat these weapons pose.

www.theatlantic.com

That article does not deny that if Russia nukes NATO, the US will always respond by nuking Russia.

The article is wrong about the number of cities that we can destroy with our current level of deployment. It is 300, not 150.

 

[Ringo]

No such attack ever happened. Georgia only attacked the invading Russian army.

Oh, yes! I remember this propaganda shit that flowed in August 2008 from American TV screens and when someone accidentally appeared telling the truth, it was quickly deleted.


In fact, shit makes up most of the information on foreign topics in American news. And the stupid population is happy to consume this shit, since they have never tried anything else.

 

[Open Bolt]

In fact, shit makes up most of the information on foreign topics in American news. And the stupid population is happy to consume this shit, since they have never tried anything else.

The US media often gets a lot of things wrong. But compared to the stream of outright lies that passes for journalism in other countries, the US media is amazingly accurate.

 

[Ringo]

But compared to the stream of outright lies that passes for journalism in other countries, the US media is amazingly accurate.

Habla usted/говоришь ли ты any other language, to make such conclusions? If not, you get all the information from "Fake News.