Keep Finland and Sweden Out of Nato.

I was more addressing the “there’s no such thing” opening premise. Deterrence can work maybe. And maybe it has worked so far. But that’s far from a guarantee it will work when a madman is at the helm. And I am talking about an aberrant evil scumbag like Putin.
It is still working, that proves that Putin isn't evil. He'll push the button if necessary, but he still more want to save the Russians than kill the Americans. Anyway, Putin is still a 'hostage of the Kremlin', may be just a bit lesser than Biden is a 'hostage of the White House'.
 

Well that guy is a real bullshit artist. At least he was smart enough to back off on SAMs being offensive weapons. You notice that they didn’t bother to show any counter to his crap. We don’t force any country to trade with us, we also took casualties and every member of the WWII generation knew someone who fought, was wounded or killed in the fighting. Only paranoia makes Russia fear the west, we could care less what it does within its borders. Go yes, all the things that idiot accused the US of doing to undermine the government of Russia, the Russians havevbeennactively doing to the USA. Since V,E. Day. The Vietnam anti-war movement was almost exclusively funded by the GRU (Russian Military Intelligence)
 
Do you really believe that Joe really prefer killing Russians to protecting Americans? If he were - he wasn't allowed to become a leader of a nuclear nation at all.


It highly depends on your definition of the terms 'Russia' and 'provocation'. Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation and it was invaded by foreign Islamistic militants. Georgia attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers and citizens of Russia. Ukraine tried to join NATO, started WMD program, attacked recognized by Russia independent states. From the Russian point of view - it all were cases of self-defense.



So, I can say then that you are lying.

May be. May be not. But what is really important - the third part of this 'evil organisation' (Ukrainian SBU) tell now that they are allies of the USA. Should we take their words without a grain of salt?


Do you mean SVR? It's not the whole KGB, it's just an offspring of it's first department.


And if they care about their people - they are not that evil.


No. Of course it's much more complicated. If you make wrong choices - you may lost the opportunity of the retaliation strike at all.


At the distance of forty feet and if both of them are ready - may be (it depends on how accurate will be Vlad's first shot and how good are his bulletproof vest and helmet). But if Joe is attacking with the axe in his hands and the gun in his holster and Vlad's gun is cocked, locked and pointed at Joe, then, at the distance of twenty feet, Vlad will put a bullet in Joe's right arm and suggest him to surrender, and then, if refused, he'll put his second bullet in Joe's head (who's left his helmet at home), without giving him a chance to take his gun and retaliate.
And Vlad should not compare risk of the normal polite conversation (it is already finished) and the gun duel. He has to compare risk of the gun duel and the duel 'axe vs knife'. And here the risk of a retaliation bullet (especially with his bulletproof vest, helmet and medi-kit) is much lower that the one of the 'axe vs knife' duel which can be just a form of suicide.
You seem to have forgotten a simple fact. It wasn’t the Russian Federation. It was the Federation of INDEPENDENT States. Independent countries, NOT provinces of Russia. Putin had no right to invade a independent Chechnya, just as he had no right to invade the independent country of Georgia to seize South Ossetia, or the independent country of Ukraine to first seize Crimea, then invade again to try to seize the entire country and now he’s trying to settle for the part of Ukraine called Donbas.
Putin and his kleptocratic oligarch buddies has managed to destroy Russia’s future. No one trusts Russia anymore to keep either economic or diplomatic commitments. He has exposed Russian military equipment to be garbage, giving lie to the Russian excuse that all the destroyed gear it sold to third world dictators were cheap monkey copies of superior Russian equipment and more easily destroyed than REAL Russian equipment.
Europe is quickly realigning it's energy acquisitions away from Russia and towards the west. Within a couple of years only China will be buying Russian products and China ALWAYS makes its trade deals one sided in favor of China. Within a decade Russia will be a client state of China existing only to provide China with raw materials at whatever prices China will be prepared to pay.
Russia had a chance to join the free family of nations and gave it away to a bunch of kleptocratic oligarchs who used their power and position in the defunct USSR to become rich criminals at the expense of the Russian people.
 
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If Russia nukes NATO cities, the US will nuke Russian cities.

Moscow and Leningrad will be the first to burn.
Putin Can Play Three-Dimensional Chess While Our Leaders Can Only Play Solitaire

These nuclear scare-stories are faked by Putin to get Americans to oppose NATO's war in the Ukraine, since he knows we are too brainwashed to oppose it for realistic reasons.
 
You seem to have forgotten a simple fact. It wasn’t the Russian Federation. It was the Federation of INDEPENDENT States. Independent countries, NOT provinces of Russia.
Actually, it wasn't an independent state. It was and still is a province of Russia.

Putin had no right to invade a independent Chechnya, just as he had no right to invade the independent country of Georgia to seize South Ossetia,
Same way, they had right to fight back when Georgian agressors attacked Russian peacekeepers. And they have right to recognize independence of South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea and any other state, as well as the USA have right to recognize independence of Kosovo.


or the independent country to first seize Crimea, then invade again to try to seize the entire country and now he’s trying to settle for the part of Ukraine called Donbas.
Putin and his kleptocratic oligarch buddies has managed to destroy Russia’s future. No one trusts Russia anymore to keep either economic or diplomatic commitments.
Actually, China and India like Russia and want to use it against the West.

He has exposed Russian military equipment to be garbage, giving lie to the Russian excuse that all the destroyed gear it sold to third world dictators were cheap monkey copies of superior Russian equipment and more easily destroyed than REAL Russian equipment..
Actually, there was only one confirmed loss of T-90M and one of T-80BVM.
 
Turkish security forces found Swedish AT-4 anti-tank grenade launchers, as well as other weapons and ammunition in a cave in northern Iraq used by militants of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), recognized in Turkey and the EU as a terrorist organization. This is reported by the Turkish Anadolu news agency.
The cave was taken during the assault as part of Operation "Claw-Castle", which began on April 17.

As a cherry on the cake, comparing the serial numbers of the grenade launchers will show that all this was delivered to help Ukraine :abgg2q.jpg:
Sweden is a sponsor of terrorism! It is necessary to impose some international sanctions on it.
Biden got his 10% cut from the Ukies
 
Actually, it wasn't an independent state. It was and still is a province of Russia.


Same way, they had right to fight back when Georgian agressors attacked Russian peacekeepers. And they have right to recognize independence of South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea and any other state, as well as the USA have right to recognize independence of Kosovo.



Actually, China and India like Russia and want to use it against the West.


Actually, there was only one confirmed loss of T-90M and one of T-80BVM.
Georgian "aggressors", by that you mean the national troops of the country the RUSSIANS invaded? Peacekeepers can only be invited by the sitting national government. Otherwise, the Confederacy could have invited British or French peacekeepers to defend itself from the official American army that was fighting to quash their rebellion. The only country to recognize the "independence" of South Ossetia is Russia, which coincidentally in the country that invaded a peaceful Georgia and created the new, artificial country.
How many confirmed T-80 and T-72 losses have there been? Hundreds. There were only two t-90s sent into action and one was killed by a handheld rocket, not even a Javelin. That's a fifty percent loss ratio of what is arguably the best widely deployed Russian tank.
 
Georgian "aggressors", by that you mean the national troops of the country the RUSSIANS invaded? Peacekeepers can only be invited by the sitting national government.
They were invited by the Georgian government and their mission was approved by the UN SC.

Otherwise, the Confederacy could have invited British or French peacekeepers to defend itself from the official American army that was fighting to quash their rebellion. The only country to recognize the "independence" of South Ossetia is Russia, which coincidentally in the country that invaded a peaceful Georgia and created the new, artificial country.
Same situation with Taiwan, Kosovo, Northern Cyprus, and many other states. It is sovereign right of any country to recognize or do not recognize any other country.

How many confirmed T-80 and T-72 losses have there been? Hundreds.
So what? It's old crap (but still effective for some purposes). It's cheap, at least cheaper than human lives. With 7:1 local superiority in tanks, they change one their soldier for twenty (sometimes even more) Ukrainian militants.
There were only two t-90s sent into action and one was killed by a handheld rocket, not even a Javelin. That's a fifty percent loss ratio of what is arguably the best widely deployed Russian tank.
Actually, they sent much more that two T-90M, and they didn't even try to use their Armata tanks.
 
It is still working, that proves that Putin isn't evil. He'll push the button if necessary, but he still more want to save the Russians than kill the Americans. Anyway, Putin is still a 'hostage of the Kremlin', may be just a bit lesser than Biden is a 'hostage of the White House'.
Nothing proves Putin is t evil. He is evil. He just hasn’t used nukes. Yet.
 
Do you really believe that Joe really prefer killing Russians to protecting Americans? If he were - he wasn't allowed to become a leader of a nuclear nation at all.
If Russia starts a nuclear war with NATO, Americans are willing to give our lives to ensure that Russia is destroyed.


It highly depends on your definition of the terms 'Russia' and 'provocation'. Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation and it was invaded by foreign Islamistic militants.
No such invasion by Islamic militants. Russia was the only invader. The Islamic militants were only defending themselves from Russian aggression.


Georgia attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers and citizens of Russia.
No. Georgia attacked and killed members of an invading Russian army.


Same way, they had right to fight back when Georgian aggressors attacked Russian peacekeepers.
That never happened. Georgia defensively attacked an invading Russian army.


And they have right to recognize independence of South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea and any other state, as well as the USA have right to recognize independence of Kosovo.
The US has never had any right to recognize the independence of Kosovo. Neither has anyone else.


Actually, China and India like Russia and want to use it against the West.
India will be pretty foolish if they do not ally with the West.


They were invited by the Georgian government and their mission was approved by the UN SC.
That is incorrect. Georgia never invited Russia to invade them.


Ukraine tried to join NATO,
It is hard to blame Ukraine the way Russia keeps launching unprovoked invasions of their neighbors.


started WMD program,
Ukraine never did anything of the sort.


attacked recognized by Russia independent states.
Ukraine was defending themselves from a Russian invasion.


From the Russian point of view - it all were cases of self-defense.
Those are KGB lies. Russia is the only aggressor in all three nations.


So, I can say then that you are lying.
Everything that I say is true. It is the KGB that lies.


the third part of this 'evil organisation' (Ukrainian SBU) tell now that they are allies of the USA. Should we take their words without a grain of salt?
The US is allied with Ukraine and will help Ukraine wage endless war against Russia.


Do you mean SVR?
Probably. I can only ever remember the V. This nonsense about organizations and places changing their names all the time is pretty silly. There is no reason for it.


It's not the whole KGB, it's just an offspring of it's first department.
It's all evil. And their greatest victims are the Russian people themselves.


And if they care about their people - they are not that evil.
Putin is evil enough to be a threat to the world who needs to be deterred with nuclear war.


No. Of course it's much more complicated. If you make wrong choices - you may lost the opportunity of the retaliation strike at all.
The only possible wrong choice is failing to launch the ICBMs after it is detected that the ICBMs are under attack.

Such a mistake with the ICBMs would not deprive us of a retaliation strike. There will always be at least eight Ohio subs out on patrol.

But no US president would ever make the mistake of not launching the ICBMs if it is detected that they are under attack.


At the distance of forty feet and if both of them are ready - may be (it depends on how accurate will be Vlad's first shot and how good are his bulletproof vest and helmet). But if Joe is attacking with the axe in his hands and the gun in his holster and Vlad's gun is cocked, locked and pointed at Joe, then, at the distance of twenty feet, Vlad will put a bullet in Joe's right arm and suggest him to surrender, and then, if refused, he'll put his second bullet in Joe's head (who's left his helmet at home), without giving him a chance to take his gun and retaliate.
That's not a realistic model. The US will always have at least eight Ohio subs out on patrol. And the US will always launch our ICBMs if Russia attacks them.

So if Joe is fatally wounded, Joe will always have the ability to still draw his gun and fatally wound Vlad before Joe dies.


And Vlad should not compare risk of the normal polite conversation (it is already finished) and the gun duel. He has to compare risk of the gun duel and the duel 'axe vs knife'. And here the risk of a retaliation bullet (especially with his bulletproof vest, helmet and medi-kit) is much lower that the one of the 'axe vs knife' duel which can be just a form of suicide.
Nuclear war with NATO will always be suicide for Russia. Biden will retaliate with nuclear weapons if NATO is attacked with nuclear weapons. So will any other US president.
 

The main point being made by this article is finally making it clear that Nato is only a tool of US aggression.

quotes:




There's obviously no longer any attempt to say that Nato protects all the member countries.

Problem is if you don't get protected by one asshole superpower, another will eat you up.
 
If Russia starts a nuclear war with NATO, Americans are willing to give our lives to ensure that Russia is destroyed.

Definitely no. The only reason why Britain and France have their 'independent' nuclear deterrence - it's because the USA need to have a chance to stop nuclear escalation by sacrificing them.
No such invasion by Islamic militants. Russia was the only invader. The Islamic militants were only defending themselves from Russian aggression.

No. Georgia attacked and killed members of an invading Russian army.
No. Russian peacekeepers were stationed there since early nineties, invited by the Georgian government.

That never happened. Georgia defensively attacked an invading Russian army.


The US has never had any right to recognize the independence of Kosovo. Neither has anyone else.
Did the Russians have right to recognize independence of the United States of America? Any state has right to recognize or not recognize any other state, leaders of those states their regimes and so on...
Anyway, the USA recognized independence of Kosovo and Russia recognized independence of South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea, DPR and LPR.

India will be pretty foolish if they do not ally with the West.
They already were 'allied' with the West. Actually, they were a part of the British Empire. They didn't like it. And yes, now they make more than twenty dollars from every barrel of reselled Russian oil and happy about it.

That is incorrect. Georgia never invited Russia to invade them.
Georgia invited Russian peacekeepers in early nineties. And they have been kept peace between local Ossetians and Georgians until Saakashvili ordered attack them.

It is hard to blame Ukraine the way Russia keeps launching unprovoked invasions of their neighbors.
It was hard to blame Cuba for invite Soviet troops (with their nuclear missiles) back in 1962, but there is no any practical need in blaming. Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba were a treat and the USA eliminated this treat by a combination of diplomatic and military actions.

Ukraine never did anything of the sort.
May be. May be Serbians didn't commit genocide of Kosovars, and Iraq didn't have WMD program, too.

Ukraine was defending themselves from a Russian invasion.
Bla-bla-bla.

Those are KGB lies. Russia is the only aggressor in all three nations.
But SBU is KGB too.

Everything that I say is true. It is the KGB that lies.

Do you think that SBU or CIA don't lie?
The US is allied with Ukraine and will help Ukraine wage endless war against Russia.
You see... There are no endless wars, because nobody has endless resources (first of all - human resources).

Probably. I can only ever remember the V. This nonsense about organizations and places changing their names all the time is pretty silly. There is no reason for it.
You just don't study them. You are silly, ignorant and hypocritical.

It's all evil. And their greatest victims are the Russian people themselves.



Putin is evil enough to be a threat to the world who needs to be deterred with nuclear war.
Don't mistake weakness for goodness or strength for evil.

The only possible wrong choice is failing to launch the ICBMs after it is detected that the ICBMs are under attack.
You see, if you are not ready when the enemy is ready - it's too late to launch ICBMs.

Such a mistake with the ICBMs would not deprive us of a retaliation strike. There will always be at least eight Ohio subs out on patrol.
There were eight Ohios earlier. Right now their amount often decreased to six or, sometimes, to four. What is even more important there, usually, are only two of them at hard duty in Northern Atlantic from where they can attack Moscow and Saint-Petersburg, and there could be Russian attacking submarines (or UUVs), and what is even more important - an attack of few hundred W76-1 RVs, weaking by their ABD could cause a serious, but, very likely, not fatal wound.

But no US president would ever make the mistake of not launching the ICBMs if it is detected that they are under attack.
He may not have enough of time, or C2 system may be degraded by the Russians.

That's not a realistic model. The US will always have at least eight Ohio subs out on patrol. And the US will always launch our ICBMs if Russia attacks them.
It's simply not true.

So if Joe is fatally wounded, Joe will always have the ability to still draw his gun and fatally wound Vlad before Joe dies.
No. Not always. This is a real problem. What is even more important, even if Joe can try put a bullet in Vlads belly - he can't be sure, that Vlads bullet proof vest won't protect him.
Also, with his right hand wounded and Vlad's gun pointed directly into his head, Joe may decide that it is better to give his axe and his wallet but save his gun and live and look for for a better chance in the future.
Nuclear war with NATO will always be suicide for Russia. Biden will retaliate with nuclear weapons if NATO is attacked with nuclear weapons. So will any other US president.
No. Any American president prefer save Americans if it is possible.
 
Definitely no.
That is incorrect. If Russia starts a nuclear war with NATO, Americans are willing to give our lives to ensure that Russia is destroyed.


The only reason why Britain and France have their 'independent' nuclear deterrence - it's because the USA need to have a chance to stop nuclear escalation by sacrificing them.
They may be unwilling to rely on us, but we'll still be there for them.


No. Russian peacekeepers were stationed there since early nineties, invited by the Georgian government.
That did not make it OK for Russia to invade Georgia.


That report is full of KGB lies.


Georgia invited Russian peacekeepers in early nineties. And they have been kept peace between local Ossetians and Georgians until Saakashvili ordered attack them.
Saakashvili did no such thing. He only attacked after Russia invaded his country.


It was hard to blame Cuba for invite Soviet troops (with their nuclear missiles) back in 1962, but there is no any practical need in blaming. Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba were a treat and the USA eliminated this treat by a combination of diplomatic and military actions.
There is a difference between "Cuba being a Soviet ally" (which we allowed) and "Cuba hosting nuclear missiles" (which we did not allow).

There is a difference between "Ukraine joining NATO" (which is like Cuba being allied with the Soviets) and "Ukraine hosting nuclear missiles" (which so far no one has proposed doing).


May be. May be Serbians didn't commit genocide of Kosovars, and Iraq didn't have WMD program, too.
There was no Serbian genocide against the Kosovars.


Do you think that SBU or CIA don't lie?
They might. But I don't pay any attention to what they say. I disregard their claims just as surely as I disregard the claims of the KGB.


You see... There are no endless wars, because nobody has endless resources (first of all - human resources).
The US has enough resources to keep Ukraine in the fight indefinitely. Perhaps Russia will run out of resources, but Ukraine will not.


You just don't study them. You are silly, ignorant and hypocritical.
Don't be silly. These endless name-changes are pointless. If the KGB renames themselves the ABC or the XYZ it will not change who they are.


Don't mistake weakness for goodness or strength for evil.
Putin and the KGB are both evil. They are also both weak.


You see, if you are not ready when the enemy is ready - it's too late to launch ICBMs.
Our ICBMs are always ready to launch.


There were eight Ohios earlier. Right now their amount often decreased to six or, sometimes, to four.
That is incorrect. There are always a minimum of eight Ohio submarines on patrol. Sometimes there are more than eight.


What is even more important there, usually, are only two of them at hard duty in Northern Atlantic from where they can attack Moscow and Saint-Petersburg,
The submarines on hard duty are strictly counterforce. It is the more distant subs that are countervalue.


and there could be Russian attacking submarines (or UUVs),
No there couldn't. Russia has no ability to track our subs.


and what is even more important - an attack of few hundred W76-1 RVs, weaking by their ABD could cause a serious, but, very likely, not fatal wound.
Russian missile defenses will not be of any significance. Missile defenses are useless against a large attack.

And Russia's missile defenses will be either expended or destroyed in the counterforce attack. Russia will have no missile defenses left by the time people start thinking about countervalue strikes.


He may not have enough of time,
The President will always have enough time to launch the ICBMs. It only takes 80 seconds to launch the ICBMs even if it is done from out of the blue with no warning.

We will have warning, so it will only take 20 seconds.


or C2 system may be degraded by the Russians.
Attacking our early warning satellites will put us on our guard just as surely as the detection of a large launch. The ICBMs will be launched as soon as radar confirms the incoming warheads.


It's simply not true.
That is incorrect. It is very true. The US will always have a minimum of eight Ohio submarines on patrol. The US will always launch our ICBMs if Russia attacks them.


No. Not always. This is a real problem.
That is incorrect. If Joe is fatally wounded, Joe will always have the ability to still draw his gun and fatally wound Vlad before Joe dies.


What is even more important, even if Joe can try put a bullet in Vlads belly - he can't be sure, that Vlads bullet proof vest won't protect him.
Missile defenses are useless against a large attack. Joe will always be able to fatally wound Vlad.


Also, with his right hand wounded and Vlad's gun pointed directly into his head, Joe may decide that it is better to give his axe and his wallet but save his gun and live and look for for a better chance in the future.
If Vlad shoots Joe, Joe will always choose to shoot back.


No. Any American president prefer save Americans if it is possible.
That is incorrect. If Russia is nuking NATO targets, any American president will always respond by nuking Russia.
 
Everything in this report that they said was illegal for the Georgian gov't to do is what the Russians are doing in Ukraine today on a much larger scale.

When a part of a country declares themselves independent, the national gov't will respond. They can't just sit back and let it disintegrate. That's why Russian propaganda groups created movements like #Calexit and #Texit in the US in the last 2 elections. Just trying to create strife.

Ukraine is not a breakaway province of Russia, and the Russian armed forces show no interest in concepts like "necessary and proportionate". They are firing missiles into Ukrainian cities 500km from the front- it's nothing but a gratuitous destruction of civilian infrastructure.
 
Everything in this report that they said was illegal for the Georgian gov't to do is what the Russians are doing in Ukraine today on a much larger scale.

When a part of a country declares themselves independent, the national gov't will respond. They can't just sit back and let it disintegrate. That's why Russian propaganda groups created movements like #Calexit and #Texit in the US in the last 2 elections. Just trying to create strife.

Ukraine is not a breakaway province of Russia, and the Russian armed forces show no interest in concepts like "necessary and proportionate". They are firing missiles into Ukrainian cities 500km from the front- it's nothing but a gratuitous destruction of civilian infrastructure.
Note also that the report was an outright lie about what happened in the war.

In reality Russia launched a massive invasion of Georgia without provocation, and Georgia's defense against that invasion was perfectly appropriate.
 
So far Turkey is keeping Sweden and Finland out of NATO, and so far he is suceeding.

Ergodan is accusing both countries of supporting terrorism.


"When Erdogan talks of “terrorists” in this context, he means the Kurdish Workers’ Party, or the PKK – a Kurdish Marxist separatist movement that has been fighting Turkish forces on-and-off since the 1980s. It operates mostly in southeastern Turkey and parts of northern Iraq.

The PKK is classified as a terrorist organization by Turkey, as well as by the U.S., Canada, Australia and the European Union.

In fact, Sweden was one of the first countries to designate the group as a terrorist organization in 1984."


So there you have it. He has a point.
 
Note also that the report was an outright lie about what happened in the war.

In reality Russia launched a massive invasion of Georgia without provocation, and Georgia's defense against that invasion was perfectly appropriate.
I didn't read the report. I assumed the "World Socialist Web Site" or whatever that was would have a certain perspective, lol. I doubt the report really presents it the way the web site does.

I found the quoted portion ironic, since the poster is defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine. (italics mine)

“There is the question of whether the force by Georgia during the night of 7/8 August was justifiable under international law. It was not…it is not possible to accept that the shelling of Tskhinvali with Grad multiple rocket launchers and heavy artillery would satisfy the requirements of having been necessary and proportionate,” the investigators found.

For more than 3 months, Russia has been doing this exact thing but only much worse. Awful for the Georgian army to do this for one day, okay for Russia for how long???
 
So far Turkey is keeping Sweden and Finland out of NATO, and so far he is suceeding.

Ergodan is accusing both countries of supporting terrorism.
Erdo better be careful.

If it really came down to it, most NATO countries would prefer to have Sweden and Finland in the club over Turkey.
 
I didn't read the report. I assumed the "World Socialist Web Site" or whatever that was would have a certain perspective, lol. I doubt the report really presents it the way the web site does.
Actually the report was pretty bed. They took all the KGB lies at face value.

Imagine a report on the war in Ukraine that believed all of Russia's lies about neonazis.
 

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